What's wrong with being <Country of parental/your origin>-American?

[eflynn 0]

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well we sure and the heck cant call them "them" that would be wrong, term black is easier, colored people isnt good, I hear black isnt technicually a color, and negro reminds me of a college fund....speaking of that how is it okay to name a whole fund that yet if I say anything regardless if its black brown colored negro etc its wrong? For once I agree with Jesse

Well:
Negro: Whats wrong with that...Like you said they have the "United Negro College Fund"...so I don't see how they can find it offensive when they use it for a fund.

Colored: What about the NAACP? How can it be "bad" if the have a group dedicated to it?

Black: Well, they are not really black. But then again I am not really white either, and it seems they don't have a problem calling me white. I like the old Star Trek episode where the Andorians called Kirk "Pink Skin" (OK the fact I knew that scares even me).

Nigger: Well if they want that term to die....Maybe they should stop using it?

My Grandmother called Blacks "Darkies"...She was in no way racist, but in the small town she grew up in thats what they called black people. She was too old to change with the times and in the small farm town she lived in no one cared....But it made me laugh everytime she said it, and if we tried to correct her, she would just look confused. "Well, they are darker".

Addressing the terms "negro and colored:" Boston College... Technically it's a university as it has graduate programs but the name has been retained because it's part of the legacy of the school. The same could be said for the NAACP and the UNCF.

Addressing the term "nigger:" You have to examine the intent of the word as it's used. When we say it to each other there's a completely different intent than when it's said to an African American from a non African American (if you prefer Black okay, but focus on the point I'm making rather than which term I'm using to refer to myself and those like me). The term will never "die" or go away so it's important to understand why it hurts, stings, incenses, when it comes from other groups of people. In a nutshell, we started using the word to remove it's inherent power. The inherent power came/comes from it's initial intent and meaning.

I remember watching a piece on 20/20 about the use of the word. They interviewed a group of non African American kids and their basic understanding of the word, it's meaning, it's intent was summarized by a 12 year old "It doesn't mean anything bad to an African American anymore. It did in slave times but that was a long time ago." I can still only partially fathom how he and his group came to that conclusion. One he's a kid and two... he's a kid. I still wonder how many adults feel this way. I every so often have to check someone on the use of the word and explain that it's simply not the same coming from different people. The closest example I can give, which is miles away, is a woman saying "hey bitch" to her female friend versus a man saying "hey bitch" to his female friend. It's just not the same.

As far as your grandmother's comments I understand she was born and raised in a different time and that was normal given her circumstances. What I don't understand is why you laughed or what you found funny about it.

[Muenkel 0]

I was talking with my friend Louie, who is black about this exact topic. He chuckles when people refer to him as African-American because as far as he knows his ancestors are European. He considers his nationality to be American and his race to be Negro. I asked him about the other terms. 'Nigger' is offensive for obvious reasons. 'Colored' he doesn't get as noone is truly black or white (except maybe Albinos, but that's a different thread). 'Black' doesn't bother him although when he looks in the mirror he sees dark brown. 'Negro' is fine as it is his race.

Now what's the deal with people of the United States claiming to be Americans? Is it because United Statesians sounds stupid? Doesn't Canadians, Mexicans, Nicaraguans, Brazillians, Venezualans, etc. have just as much right to call themselves Americans? To make things more complicated, inside the United States we have Texans, Floridians, Californians, New Yorkers, New Jerseyites, Connecticut-people, Minnesotans, etc. Let's face it...the whole system is screwed up.

I think the Martians are the only ones who have it right when they refer to us as Earthlings. We're also pretty kind to the Martians as we never refer to them in regard to the color of their skin(?). You never hear anyone refer to them as Greenies.

Chris

[Ron 10]

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Addressing the term "nigger:" You have to examine the intent of the word as it's used. When we say it to each other there's a completely different intent than when it's said to an African American from a non African American

You know my intent? How do you know my intent? If you and I were joking around and you called me a "punk" (last I checked I was not gay) or a "jackass" (last I checked I was human) how would that be ANY different than me saying, "What are you smoking nigger?"

It is only the way *you* perceive the word. Its just a damn word. Used in jest, it is nothing worse than any other slam. Used as an insult, it is no better or worse than any other insult.

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The term will never "die" or go away so it's important to understand why it hurts, stings, incenses, when it comes from other groups of people

It stings because you let it. It clearly is not a terrible word that brings pain if you can use it to each other, and its all over in rap CD's. Personally if I found the term that offensive....I'd find it offensive no matter who said it.

Here is a prime example of discrimination. Its OK for you to call your black friends "Nigger"....If I were to call my black friends the SAME damn word, suddenly people would get pissed. If you want the word to go away, stop using it. If you want it to stop hurting you....Stop letting it. I find it really funny that the same word out of a blacks mouth is OK, but if a white guy says it ...BAM, it is the mother of all insults.

What the hell sense does that make?

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I remember watching a piece on 20/20 about the use of the word. They interviewed a group of non African American kids and their basic understanding of the word, it's meaning, it's intent was summarized by a 12 year old "It doesn't mean anything bad to an African American anymore. It did in slave times but that was a long time ago." I can still only partially fathom how he and his group came to that conclusion. One he's a kid and two... he's a kid.

I have a reason. He is not racist in the slightest bit. He sees his black friends use it....He hears it on rap CD's...Hell the damn word is all around him. Everytime ODB, Snoop, ect used it no one went ballistic. When his black friends call each other that, no one gets hit. This to me is really the desired result. A one time insult has become nothing. Thats a good thing. Your kids will not have a problem with that word coming from a white guy, UNLESS YOU TEACH THEM IT IS AN INSULT, they will never know.

I'll make a deal with you, If God forbid I ever have a kid, I'll teach him that people are people no matter what the color of their skin is....If you have a kid, don't raise him any differently. That way both kids will never learn the history of the term "nigger" and it will not be painful to either....It will become a word.

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I every so often have to check someone on the use of the word and explain that it's simply not the same coming from different people

Why? why is it OK for you to call another black man a "nigger", but if I use it it becomes the worse insult possble? How is it any worse than me calling you a "Mother Fucker"?

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The closest example I can give, which is miles away, is a woman saying "hey bitch" to her female friend versus a man saying "hey bitch" to his female friend. It's just not the same.

I told a female friend just last night "Bitch, you must be crazy". My GF calls me jokingly "Babyiotch".

They are words as jokes they are no worse than any other words, as insults they are no worse than other insults.

A true racism free life is one where the INTENT is important, not the word. And the color of the speaker is not important.

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I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." -- MLK, August 28th, 1963

"Equal" would mean that one word spoken from either a white or black man would carry the SAME weight.

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I have a dream that one day down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; that one day right down in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. -- MLK, August 28th, 1963

If we don't teach our children how to be racist....They will never become racist. This includes allowing a word to be spoken or not spoken by either race, not just one. Then and ONLY then will we really be equal.

If you insist that only one race can speak a word, you are in fact encouraging racism.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[lisamariewillbe 1]

AMEN Ron , good on ya, I couldnt have said it better myself....mostly because my vocabulary is limited lol.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[rehmwa 2]

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If we don't teach our children how to be racist....They will never become racist.

Dead - nuts - absotively - perfect

and it has to apply to everybody - but it's exactly the opposite of what is happening in sensitivity, PC, upbringing

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[eflynn 0]

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Addressing the term "nigger:" You have to examine the intent of the word as it's used. When we say it to each other there's a completely different intent than when it's said to an African American from a non African American

You know my intent? How do you know my intent? If you and I were joking around and you called me a "punk" (last I checked I was not gay) or a "jackass" (last I checked I was human) how would that be ANY different than me saying, "What are you smoking nigger?"

It is only the way *you* perceive the word. Its just a damn word. Used in jest, it is nothing worse than any other slam. Used as an insult, it is no better or worse than any other insult.

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The term will never "die" or go away so it's important to understand why it hurts, stings, incenses, when it comes from other groups of people

It stings because you let it. It clearly is not a terrible word that brings pain if you can use it to each other, and its all over in rap CD's. Personally if I found the term that offensive....I'd find it offensive no matter who said it.

Here is a prime example of discrimination. Its OK for you to call your black friends "Nigger"....If I were to call my black friends the SAME damn word, suddenly people would get pissed. If you want the word to go away, stop using it. If you want it to stop hurting you....Stop letting it. I find it really funny that the same word out of a blacks mouth is OK, but if a white guy says it ...BAM, it is the mother of all insults.

What the hell sense does that make?

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I remember watching a piece on 20/20 about the use of the word. They interviewed a group of non African American kids and their basic understanding of the word, it's meaning, it's intent was summarized by a 12 year old "It doesn't mean anything bad to an African American anymore. It did in slave times but that was a long time ago." I can still only partially fathom how he and his group came to that conclusion. One he's a kid and two... he's a kid.

I have a reason. He is not racist in the slightest bit. He sees his black friends use it....He hears it on rap CD's...Hell the damn word is all around him. Everytime ODB, Snoop, ect used it no one went ballistic. When his black friends call each other that, no one gets hit. This to me is really the desired result. A one time insult has become nothing. Thats a good thing. Your kids will not have a problem with that word coming from a white guy, UNLESS YOU TEACH THEM IT IS AN INSULT, they will never know.

I'll make a deal with you, If God forbid I ever have a kid, I'll teach him that people are people no matter what the color of their skin is....If you have a kid, don't raise him any differently. That way both kids will never learn the history of the term "nigger" and it will not be painful to either....It will become a word.

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I every so often have to check someone on the use of the word and explain that it's simply not the same coming from different people

Why? why is it OK for you to call another black man a "nigger", but if I use it it becomes the worse insult possble? How is it any worse than me calling you a "Mother Fucker"?

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The closest example I can give, which is miles away, is a woman saying "hey bitch" to her female friend versus a man saying "hey bitch" to his female friend. It's just not the same.

I told a female friend just last night "Bitch, you must be crazy". My GF calls me jokingly "Babyiotch".

They are words as jokes they are no worse than any other words, as insults they are no worse than other insults.

A true racism free life is one where the INTENT is important, not the word. And the color of the speaker is not important.

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I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." -- MLK, August 28th, 1963

"Equal" would mean that one word spoken from either a white or black man would carry the SAME weight.

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I have a dream that one day down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; that one day right down in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. -- MLK, August 28th, 1963

If we don't teach our children how to be racist....They will never become racist. This includes allowing a word to be spoken or not spoken by either race, not just one. Then and ONLY then will we really be equal.

If you insist that only one race can speak a word, you are in fact encouraging racism.

You know my intent? How do you know my intent? If you and I were joking around and you called me a "punk" (last I checked I was not gay) or a "jackass" (last I checked I was human) how would that be ANY different than me saying, "What are you smoking nigger?"

There are years of history behind the word differing hugely from "punk" or "jackass." That's how it's differnet. It's not "just a word." Words have meaning and history behind them and as a result of the history behind it in this country it's not just as bad as any other "slam."

"It stings because you let it. It clearly is not a terrible word that brings pain if you can use it to each other, and its all over in rap CD's. Personally if I found the term that offensive....I'd find it offensive no matter who said it"

It's certaintly capable of bringing me pain and upsetting me. The only time I've been called a "nigger" as an adult was by a georgia state patrol cop. His intent as he sneered through my window certaintly wasn't pleasant. I can't explain the anger and contempt that built up in my chest as I sat there and had to listen to him go on and on about how he hated to see "niggers like you in nice trucks." So yes, I could have sat there and said to myself "I'm not a nigger. Why should I be mad?" But the fact of the matter is he was doing his best to disrespect me. He didn't call me an asshole, or a punk or a jackass for a reason. He knew what he was saying and why and he knew how it would affect me. That was an excercise in power. "I know you're mad but what are you going to do? You have to sit there and take it." You know me and know what I look like... There's no way he would have said that to me if we were simply two people standing face to face.

"I have a reason. He is not racist in the slightest bit. He sees his black friends use it....He hears it on rap CD's...Hell the damn word is all around him. Everytime ODB, Snoop, ect used it no one went ballistic. When his black friends call each other that, no one gets hit. This to me is really the desired result. A one time insult has become nothing. Thats a good thing. Your kids will not have a problem with that word coming from a white guy, UNLESS YOU TEACH THEM IT IS AN INSULT, they will never know."

Perhaps not racist but definitely ignorant, and that's no excuse. During the course of the interview they explained they heard the word in music not from their African American friends as they "really didn't have any." Do I hold him completely at fault, no. Teaching children to think and analyze is of paramount importance. Someone missed the boat on this one.

Not knowing it's an insult doesn't make it not an insult. I would rather my children and your children have a full understanding of the word rather than letting them "never know."

"I'll make a deal with you, If God forbid I ever have a kid, I'll teach him that people are people no matter what the color of their skin is....If you have a kid, don't raise him any differently. That way both kids will never learn the history of the term "nigger" and it will not be painful to either....It will become a word."

That's not a deal I'd be interested in. One I don't want kids but two, and more importantly, it's crucial for people to have a broad understanding of things. Never telling them would make them ignorant.

"My GF calls me jokingly "Babyiotch".

Another difference... There's no way my girlfriend is calling me anything close to "bitch."

"Why? why is it OK for you to call another black man a "nigger", but if I use it it becomes the worse insult possble? How is it any worse than me calling you a "Mother Fucker"?

I feel like I've already addressed this but let me try again... I'm not nor have I ever said it was okay. I said it was different. You might call a family member a "stupid mother fucker." If some random person calls him a "stupid mother fucker" it's a completely different story. I feel like that's a general way of looking at things that holds true more than it doesn't.

"If we don't teach our children how to be racist....They will never become racist. This includes allowing a word to be spoken or not spoken by either race, not just one. Then and ONLY then will we really be equal.

If you insist that only one race can speak a word, you are in fact encouraging racism"

"Teach" would be the operative word here. Ignoring the history behind something isn't teaching. It's ignoring. So my friend and coach, if a child "never learns the history of the term" he hasn't been taught anything. People of different races being ignorant of one another's culture and history very often leads to racism.

Quoting MLK doesn't really serve to illustrate your point. Again, looking at the broad picture, HE began to conclude that while in theory it's a nice idea, the reality of the matter is/was very different. If you're wondering how/where I got this from I graduated from Morehouse College... the same college he graduated from and studied his writings in my freshman history course.

Rather than hijacking the thread or turning this into a yelling match, pm me if you want to continue discussing the topic.

I'm not here to have anyone agree with me; Simply to illustrate another point of view.

[dorbie 0]

You know a thread has gone horribly awry when you can't even parse the discussion with diff.

[Ron 10]

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Rather than hijacking the thread or turning this into a yelling match, pm me if you want to continue discussing the topic.

Hijacking on important topics is not only OK, but a great thing.

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There are years of history behind the word differing hugely from "punk" or "jackass." That's how it's differnet. It's not "just a word." Words have meaning and history behind them and as a result of the history behind it in this country it's not just as bad as any other "slam."

It is just a word when you use it, or ODB uses it...But it can never just be a word from my lips? How does race make it OK, or taboo? If you really think that a white man cannot use the word "nigger", then you are the one that is being racist.

Lucky for all of us our children will let go of the negativity and strong feelings of that word. Just like the children of such assholes as the ones that burned crosses are not like their fathers.

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It's certaintly capable of bringing me pain and upsetting me. The only time I've been called a "nigger" as an adult was by a georgia state patrol cop. His intent as he sneered through my window certaintly wasn't pleasant.

OK, but thats INTENT, not the word. If he had used any other word in that situation he still would have been an asshole. And you still would have had the same feelings.

Its intent that needs to go away, not the word. Intent IS going away. Did you hear about the kids in West Palm? White girl and a black boy voted "most whipped". The black kid thought it would be funny to have him in a leash with his GF holding the collar. It was funny, they thought it was funny, their friends thought it was funny....His Mom blew a gasket.

I think its GOOD that people can act stupid like that. These kids had NO racial motivations. You might call them stupid becasue they were not upset....I call them better than my parents since they didn't consider race to be an issue.

They are equal. They are what we need to be.

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Perhaps not racist but definitely ignorant, and that's no excuse.

You can know about history and not live in it. Do you think for one second that I treat you any differently due to your skin color? But I know history. I treat you like a PERSON. Which is more than maybe my parents did, or their parent, and maybe theirs. I know what happend, but TODAY I treat you like an equal. I cannot do anything about the past.

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Not knowing it's an insult doesn't make it not an insult. I would rather my children and your children have a full understanding of the word rather than letting them "never know."

OH, I would want my kids to know what happend. I would want my kids to know the things that can happen. But I don't want my kids to know that a word is evil....It was the things attached to that word that were bad. The INTENT that some GA jackass cop used it in. Not the word.

If it was the WORD, then you should be just as upset at the rappers using it, and your buddies. You can say it is different...And it is. But as skydivers we don't go around calling each other "Idiots that fall from planes" then get upset when some whuffo calls us that.

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That's not a deal I'd be interested in. One I don't want kids but two, and more importantly, it's crucial for people to have a broad understanding of things. Never telling them would make them ignorant.

You can tell them, but not tie such an importance to it. If you really want the word to lose meaning....Get on Snoop for using it, tell your friends not to use it.

To get upset only when a white guy uses it IS RACISM.

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Another difference... There's no way my girlfriend is calling me anything close to "bitch."

OK, but thats not race related. I don't care. Its a private joke between us. But if you called me "bitch" I would just ignore it, or if you were doing it in jest I would make some slam back at you.

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I feel like I've already addressed this but let me try again... I'm not nor have I ever said it was okay. I said it was different

If the only reason it is different is because I am white...Then you are encouraging racism.

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"Teach" would be the operative word here. Ignoring the history behind something isn't teaching. It's ignoring. So my friend and coach, if a child "never learns the history of the term" he hasn't been taught anything. People of different races being ignorant of one another's culture and history very often leads to racism.

Teach them the history of the term, but don't teach them the hatred you have of it. Let the negative feelings of it die with you.

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Quoting MLK doesn't really serve to illustrate your point. Again, looking at the broad picture, HE began to conclude that while in theory it's a nice idea, the reality of the matter is/was very different

The world IS becoming like he dreamed. That 12 year old and that high school couple are teaching us that the negative feelings we hold on to so dearly are dying with us.

I really do hope for the day that all people are treated by WHO they are, not by WHAT. Trust me, I'd rather hate someone for the stupid actions they do than the color of their skin, hair, ect.

I hate the GA cop that called you that just like you do. He is an asshole, a biggot, and a moron. One day he will die, and I can only hope his son is not as stupid as he is. But that cop got that hatred from his dad, just like you were taught to hate that word.

I look forward to the day that we don't teach our kids to hate based on race.

A lot of people think that the day blacks are able to go as far as there skill will let them is the day they will finally be equal.

Thats the first step. The final step will be the day that there are no more race related taboo words. Then and only then will people really be equal.

The day that people don't try to measure things by fitting them into racial issues. Then we will be free.

When those kids can take a stupid picture for the yearbook and not force a recall. Then we will have the dream.

And I really think that the next generation will be there. They don't see the problem.

I really think we are close. We will be there as soon as those of us with preheld beliefs die.

When we look at each other and say "My child will not be a racist". Then we will be there.

You know me....Do you think I am racist? If not, why would that word from my lips make you any more upset than if it came from some random black guy?

BTW if you want to take this private please do, but I think this forum is just fine as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Lindsey 0]

"Teach" would be the operative word here. Ignoring the history behind something isn't teaching. It's ignoring. So my friend and coach, if a child "never learns the history of the term" he hasn't been taught anything. People of different races being ignorant of one another's culture and history very often leads to racism.

I tend to agree about knowledge being preferable to ignorance, but as I was reading your spiel I wondered this: If NOBODY today knew anything about where the word nigger came from, and if nobody knew anything about the history of slavery in this country and the subsequent wrongs done to, not just black people but others as well, would folks have such chips on their shoulders about skin color?

So one kid's white and another kid's black. Even if they're taught the history of slavery in this country, neither can REALLY understand its impact on the people who were enslaved. It's too far outside of our experience today. We can know it, and take lessons from it. The white kid can have as much empathy for people who were enslaved as a black kid can today because they were both born into a society that is beyond that. I teach my son respect for other people. I will also do my best to not let him feel as though he is to blame somehow for what happened to black people in previous centuries.

I would hope that his friends won't grow up calling each other niggers anyway, but if he is a white kid with black friends, I would hope they wouldn't make him feel as though he is not part of the friendship by placing limits on what it's kosher for him to say vs. what they can say. This is a way that he would learn that black people and white people live with different standards. These are the things that draw lines between us. These are the things that later lead us to feel animosity toward each other and lead to things like "hiring your own kind" rather than the one who is an outsider. It leads to things like the white flight when black people move into the neighborhood. I think that we would be better off if those lines were not drawn. Whites and blacks are equally responsible for removing those lines, imho.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[lawrocket 3]

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Someone please educate me as to why this is wrong?

There's nothing prima facie wrong with it. Then again, there's nothign good about it, is there?

What HAS become wrong with it is what's being done with it. It is being used to divide. You know that thing that people hate the KKK for doing? Dividing people up into groups? Yeah, that's it. It's what this stuff does.

It may have served a legitimate and good purpose in the past. But it's being taken too far...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[eflynn 0]

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Rather than hijacking the thread or turning this into a yelling match, pm me if you want to continue discussing the topic.

Hijacking on important topics is not only OK, but a great thing.

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There are years of history behind the word differing hugely from "punk" or "jackass." That's how it's differnet. It's not "just a word." Words have meaning and history behind them and as a result of the history behind it in this country it's not just as bad as any other "slam."

It is just a word when you use it, or ODB uses it...But it can never just be a word from my lips? How does race make it OK, or taboo? If you really think that a white man cannot use the word "nigger", then you are the one that is being racist.

Lucky for all of us our children will let go of the negativity and strong feelings of that word. Just like the children of such assholes as the ones that burned crosses are not like their fathers.

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It's certaintly capable of bringing me pain and upsetting me. The only time I've been called a "nigger" as an adult was by a georgia state patrol cop. His intent as he sneered through my window certaintly wasn't pleasant.

OK, but thats INTENT, not the word. If he had used any other word in that situation he still would have been an asshole. And you still would have had the same feelings.

Its intent that needs to go away, not the word. Intent IS going away. Did you hear about the kids in West Palm? White girl and a black boy voted "most whipped". The black kid thought it would be funny to have him in a leash with his GF holding the collar. It was funny, they thought it was funny, their friends thought it was funny....His Mom blew a gasket.

I think its GOOD that people can act stupid like that. These kids had NO racial motivations. You might call them stupid becasue they were not upset....I call them better than my parents since they didn't consider race to be an issue.

They are equal. They are what we need to be.

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Perhaps not racist but definitely ignorant, and that's no excuse.

You can know about history and not live in it. Do you think for one second that I treat you any differently due to your skin color? But I know history. I treat you like a PERSON. Which is more than maybe my parents did, or their parent, and maybe theirs. I know what happend, but TODAY I treat you like an equal. I cannot do anything about the past.

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Not knowing it's an insult doesn't make it not an insult. I would rather my children and your children have a full understanding of the word rather than letting them "never know."

OH, I would want my kids to know what happend. I would want my kids to know the things that can happen. But I don't want my kids to know that a word is evil....It was the things attached to that word that were bad. The INTENT that some GA jackass cop used it in. Not the word.

If it was the WORD, then you should be just as upset at the rappers using it, and your buddies. You can say it is different...And it is. But as skydivers we don't go around calling each other "Idiots that fall from planes" then get upset when some whuffo calls us that.

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That's not a deal I'd be interested in. One I don't want kids but two, and more importantly, it's crucial for people to have a broad understanding of things. Never telling them would make them ignorant.

You can tell them, but not tie such an importance to it. If you really want the word to lose meaning....Get on Snoop for using it, tell your friends not to use it.

To get upset only when a white guy uses it IS RACISM.

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Another difference... There's no way my girlfriend is calling me anything close to "bitch."

OK, but thats not race related. I don't care. Its a private joke between us. But if you called me "bitch" I would just ignore it, or if you were doing it in jest I would make some slam back at you.

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I feel like I've already addressed this but let me try again... I'm not nor have I ever said it was okay. I said it was different

If the only reason it is different is because I am white...Then you are encouraging racism.

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"Teach" would be the operative word here. Ignoring the history behind something isn't teaching. It's ignoring. So my friend and coach, if a child "never learns the history of the term" he hasn't been taught anything. People of different races being ignorant of one another's culture and history very often leads to racism.

Teach them the history of the term, but don't teach them the hatred you have of it. Let the negative feelings of it die with you.

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Quoting MLK doesn't really serve to illustrate your point. Again, looking at the broad picture, HE began to conclude that while in theory it's a nice idea, the reality of the matter is/was very different

The world IS becoming like he dreamed. That 12 year old and that high school couple are teaching us that the negative feelings we hold on to so dearly are dying with us.

I really do hope for the day that all people are treated by WHO they are, not by WHAT. Trust me, I'd rather hate someone for the stupid actions they do than the color of their skin, hair, ect.

I hate the GA cop that called you that just like you do. He is an asshole, a biggot, and a moron. One day he will die, and I can only hope his son is not as stupid as he is. But that cop got that hatred from his dad, just like you were taught to hate that word.

I look forward to the day that we don't teach our kids to hate based on race.

A lot of people think that the day blacks are able to go as far as there skill will let them is the day they will finally be equal.

Thats the first step. The final step will be the day that there are no more race related taboo words. Then and only then will people really be equal.

The day that people don't try to measure things by fitting them into racial issues. Then we will be free.

When those kids can take a stupid picture for the yearbook and not force a recall. Then we will have the dream.

And I really think that the next generation will be there. They don't see the problem.

I really think we are close. We will be there as soon as those of us with preheld beliefs die.

When we look at each other and say "My child will not be a racist". Then we will be there.

You know me....Do you think I am racist? If not, why would that word from my lips make you any more upset than if it came from some random black guy?

BTW if you want to take this private please do, but I think this forum is just fine as well.

"It is just a word when you use it, or ODB uses it...But it can never just be a word from my lips? How does race make it OK, or taboo? If you really think that a white man cannot use the word "nigger", then you are the one that is being racist.

Lucky for all of us our children will let go of the negativity and strong feelings of that word. Just like the children of such assholes as the ones that burned crosses are not like their fathers."

I never said it was just a word coming from anyone's lips. In fact, I tried to impress the importance of all that's associated with the word on you. I also never said it was okay for one person to use it. I said it was different. Similar to the way there's a huge difference between you calling your female friend a "crazy bitch" and me saying the exact same thing to her. Because a term is construed one way from a particular race and another from another doesn't make the difference a racist one if you're basing that on the classical definition of racism. I understand what you're getting at but I don't feel it's that simple.

"OK, but thats INTENT, not the word. If he had used any other word in that situation he still would have been an asshole. And you still would have had the same feelings."

I don't feel like you can separate one from the other. He would still be an asshole (and I pray I see him again one day) if he used another word but, no, I wouldn't have had the same feelings. I've been disrespected by people I really couldn't say anything back to but I've never been angry enough, as a grown man, to cry.

"Its intent that needs to go away, not the word. Intent IS going away. Did you hear about the kids in West Palm? White girl and a black boy voted "most whipped". The black kid thought it would be funny to have him in a leash with his GF holding the collar. It was funny, they thought it was funny, their friends thought it was funny....His Mom blew a gasket.

I think its GOOD that people can act stupid like that. These kids had NO racial motivations. You might call them stupid becasue they were not upset....I call them better than my parents since they didn't consider race to be an issue"

This is the first I've heard of the incident so I don't know any more about it other than what you typed. I can understand how kids would find that funny and even some adults. I can also understand how a parent wouldn't want a dog collar and a leash around their son's neck. I don't know what his mother said but it all speaks to having different frames of reference.

"You can know about history and not live in it. Do you think for one second that I treat you any differently due to your skin color? But I know history. I treat you like a PERSON. Which is more than maybe my parents did, or their parent, and maybe theirs. I know what happend, but TODAY I treat you like an equal. I cannot do anything about the past."

Living in history isn't what I'm talking about. Nor is harping on what happened before I existed. I'm talking about it's continuing impact on what happens today and what will happen in the future. They're connected and related.

Often times when someone says "it was in the past," "get over it," "that was years ago," it sounds like it's importance and impact is being dismissed. So while none of us can change the past I think it would be easier to come to a middle ground if the parties involved looked at it from the other's perspective. As I discuss this with you, and anyone who has taken the time to read this, that is my sincere hope.

"But as skydivers we don't go around calling each other "Idiots that fall from planes" then get upset when some whuffo calls us that."

The logic doesn't quite commute. If someone called me an "idiot who fell from a plane" I really wouldn't care.

"You can tell them, but not tie such an importance to it. If you really want the word to lose meaning....Get on Snoop for using it, tell your friends not to use it.

To get upset only when a white guy uses it IS RACISM."

Snoop is a musician and not someone I look to for how to live my everyday life. Interestingly enough, Snoop started referring to people as "nephew" in place of the term in question. And for the record I've gotten upset when Black people have used it too.

"OK, but thats not race related. I don't care. Its a private joke between us. But if you called me "bitch" I would just ignore it, or if you were doing it in jest I would make some slam back at you."

I responded to that because you brought it up.

"If the only reason it is different is because I am white...Then you are encouraging racism."

As I've said, there's more to it than that.

"Teach them the history of the term, but don't teach them the hatred you have of it. Let the negative feelings of it die with you."

I think in the history of the word is inherently negative and was spawned from hatred. My mother never taught me to hate the term; its meanings, in context, were something I came to understand. Sometimes it's tolerable and others it's not.

"You know me....Do you think I am racist? If not, why would that word from my lips make you any more upset than if it came from some random black guy?"

I don't have any reason to think you're racist. As to your question, I'll say this... You know how I feel about the word the same way I know how you feel about me not slowing down and catching you with my knee in the tunnel. So if you knowingly said that to me I'd have a problem with it. In part because of everything I've already said and in part because you knowingly said something to me that you knew would upset me.

The whole of an "equal" world where people don't see color isn't realistic. We're different. Plain and simple. As a result and inspite of more than just race. But differences are good and should be celebrated (we discussed this in a thread a few months ago), not ignored or set aside.

"And I really think that the next generation will be there. They don't see the problem.

I really think we are close. We will be there as soon as those of us with preheld beliefs die."

I'd like to think we're close but I don't believe it. From working with kids the way I have it seems the gap of "not understanding one another" is getting wider.

At the end of the day I realize, as I did before I typed a word in this thread, that there is no equivalent experience for you. There's no "Okay how would you feel if..." that would make you say "Okay, I see what you're saying." This makes it difficult if not impossible for you to HONESTLY understand all of what I've said. With this in mind, this is why this discussion usually ends with "Look, just don't say it."

I'm glad to have had this discussion with you and it is my hope that you have greater understanding, wether you agree or disagree, of my point of view.

When's the next camp?

[rehmwa 2]

Nice discussion guys.

Ya know, the use of the quote button is sacred, how about deleting 99% of the previous string and replacing it with the little ... or
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things?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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I never said it was just a word coming from anyone's lips. In fact, I tried to impress the importance of all that's associated with the word on you. I also never said it was okay for one person to use it. I said it was different. Similar to the way there's a huge difference between you calling your female friend a "crazy bitch" and me saying the exact same thing to her. Because a term is construed one way from a particular race and another from another doesn't make the difference a racist one if you're basing that on the classical definition of racism. I understand what you're getting at but I don't feel it's that simple.

OK simple question. You know me and I like to think you know I am not racist. So if during a camp I look at you and say, "shit nigger you are falling FAST!". You would be upset right? Now what if some black guy while we are walking to our cars comes up and asks"Hey my nigger, can I get a lift?" Same outrage, or different?

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This is the first I've heard of the incident so I don't know any more about it other than what you typed. I can understand how kids would find that funny and even some adults. I can also understand how a parent wouldn't want a dog collar and a leash around their son's neck. I don't know what his mother said but it all speaks to having different frames of reference.

Here is some info for you:

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1652889#1652889

"We don't see a problem with it," Richards said before referencing the Roots character that haunted his mother when she saw the photo. "Kunta Kinte — that was over 300 years ago."

He also believes his mother and those who might share her anxiety think differently about racism and slavery because of their age. He and his peers aren't as conscious of race, he said.

"If there was a black girl doing this in the picture, it wouldn't be an issue," Richards said.

A number of black students were standing around when the photo was taken and nobody protested, he said. "These are people who if they had a problem would have let us know," he said.

I found the fact that the kids didn't see an issue as a good sign.

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So while none of us can change the past I think it would be easier to come to a middle ground if the parties involved looked at it from the other's perspective. As I discuss this with you, and anyone who has taken the time to read this, that is my sincere hope.

You said there is no way I can really understand your position....true. I can say I do know what it is like to be considered less than others, I was a private in the Army. Being considered a second class person I do know. I don't have the decades of experience, and I always knew when I got out I was "back" to full human.

So I kinda understand.

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"But as skydivers we don't go around calling each other "Idiots that fall from planes" then get upset when some whuffo calls us that."

The logic doesn't quite commute. If someone called me an "idiot who fell from a plane" I really wouldn't care.

Why would the "n" word be different? It most likely is just used by an idiot in both cases.

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Snoop is a musician and not someone I look to for how to live my everyday life. Interestingly enough, Snoop started referring to people as "nephew" in place of the term in question. And for the record I've gotten upset when Black people have used it too.

Thats good news. I didn't know about "nephew".

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I think in the history of the word is inherently negative and was spawned from hatred. My mother never taught me to hate the term; its meanings, in context, were something I came to understand. Sometimes it's tolerable and others it's not.

Well don't you think your kids could learn that its not taboo? I didn't mean that your Mom or Dad sat you down and told you about it...But more like society as a whole lead to your "learning". I would like to think that in a generation the word will not have such feelings attached to it.

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The whole of an "equal" world where people don't see color isn't realistic. We're different. Plain and simple. As a result and inspite of more than just race. But differences are good and should be celebrated (we discussed this in a thread a few months ago), not ignored or set aside.

I think it can happen. I think it will happen. You can keep your history and your family while not dividing up to much.

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I'm glad to have had this discussion with you and it is my hope that you have greater understanding, wether you agree or disagree, of my point of view.

I think it was a good discussion even if nothing was solved.

I wait for the day that people don't see color. I think it is comming and I think it will be a good day.

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When's the next camp?

This weekend, but I guess you will not be there. I will not either I have team training.

Be cool.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[eflynn 0]

"OK simple question. You know me and I like to think you know I am not racist. So if during a camp I look at you and say, "shit nigger you are falling FAST!". You would be upset right? Now what if some black guy while we are walking to our cars comes up and asks"Hey my nigger, can I get a lift?" Same outrage, or different?"

I haven't addressed this until now because I felt it would muddle the discussion but there IS a difference between someone saying "nigga" and "nigger." So, given your scenario I would be upset at you for reasons I've already mentioned. The random black guy referring to me so casually would bother me for a few reasons. First I'd think "What the fuck is a 'nigger?' Florida is still the most ignorant state in the union." Second I'd think "I don't know you like that so fuck no, you can't get a ride." Is the outrage the same, no. It's different but still outrage.

"I found the fact that the kids didn't see an issue as a good sign."

Based on what I read in the thread it didn't seem like the mother "blew a gasket." I can understand her concern but I can also understand how the kids didn't see it as a big deal. I agree that there probably wouldn't be as much upheval if they were both of the same race.

"Why would the "n" word be different? It most likely is just used by an idiot in both cases."

History man, and all the things that are assocaite with the word. Yell "idiot" out loud and yell "nigger" out loud in a public place... Completely different reactions.

"Well don't you think your kids could learn that its not taboo? I didn't mean that your Mom or Dad sat you down and told you about it...But more like society as a whole lead to your "learning". I would like to think that in a generation the word will not have such feelings attached to it."

Time changes things but I don't know that I'd ever be comfortable with the word used casually by everyone. Maybe generations down the road will see it differently.

"Be cool."

It's all I know.

[KATO33 0]

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tech Trevor was a true African American, that only black student at the school is a idiot if she believes he isn’t. She is a black girl from America he is a white boy from Africa. This to me appears to be revearse racism. Somehow that never matters. I will not feel guilty because I was born white, or american, or female, or cute, I do not look down on others unless there ignorant, and I dont mean intelligence wise, hell Im not the brightest bulb around myself. If you were born in America, your AMERICAN if your born in Africa you are AFRICAN if you have duel citizenship then you can be AFRICIAN AMERICAN. Otherwise you are just as racist as you accuse others to be.

The reason "Blacks" use the term "African-American" is it is an attempt to connect them to a history, culture, ancestry that was stripped from us during the slave trade. There is a quote that goes "you end where you begin" if our history begins with our arrival in America then we end with a slave mentality. Using the term “African-American” connects us to a time when we were Kings, Doctors, Craftsmen, Teachers , Leaders, and Free.

Blue Skies Black Death

[Skolls081102 0]

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The reason "Blacks" use the term "African-American" is it is an attempt to connect them to a history, culture, ancestry that was stripped from us during the slave trade. There is a quote that goes "you end where you begin" if our history begins with our arrival in America then we end with a slave mentality. Using the term “African-American” connects us to a time when we were Kings, Doctors, Craftsmen, Teachers , Leaders, and Free.

But my problem with that theory is this- What if you are Black, and your heritage is not African?????
A friend of mine from work is Black- not African. So he checks Other on the forms. In America you need to remember, that not all BLACKS came from Africa- not all BLACKS need to remind themselves of a time when they were Kings, Doctors, etc... Not all BLACKS trace thie lineage to a time of slavery in the US. Some BLACKS, are just that- BLACK.

The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

[KATO33 0]

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Bring on the big hairy government checks!

As an African-American wheres my big hairy government checks?

Blue Skies Black Death

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Its not a race though, its a nationality, and while we are connecting to their history and since they cant "overcome" the slave mindset then they should NOT want to be connected to the word NIGGER, or COLORED,

Yes it is sad that white people took slaves, ITS also sad that black people in africa sold their own family members into slavery, it still happens today. Its wrong that they were taken but okay that they sold their wives sons and daughter?

If you live in yesterday then you are doomed to feel repressed and hurt and a victum. Most black africians at that time were not FREE. If you look at it at the standpoint on how far we came and what your ancestors went through then people should be respectful of the memory, instead of encouraging rasism.

If people want to be equal then why seperate yourself from them? I am american, Im not Polish American, I dont sit there and constently complain because Germans killed most my ancestors...

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[KATO33 0]

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..... they should NOT want to be connected to the word NIGGER, or COLORED,

Most Blacks Don't

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...................Its wrong that they were taken but okay that they sold their wives sons and daughter?

No it isn't okay slavery is slavery

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If you live in yesterday then you are doomed to feel repressed and hurt and a victum. Most black africians at that time were not FREE. If you look at it at the standpoint on how far we came and what your ancestors went through then people should be respectful of the memory, instead of encouraging rasism.

How is self determination encouraging racism?

Blue Skies Black Death

[Frenchy68 0]

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A friend of mine from work is Black- not African. So he checks Other on the forms

Sementics. Been to the Caucasus lately?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[rehmwa 2]

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Bring on the big hairy government checks!

As an African-American wheres my big hairy government checks?

Sorry, only big hairy checks for this category: German-Swedish-Danish-Irish-Scottish-French-etc.-pre&post Revolutionary War-American

Seriously - If there is no purpose or intent to special or different treatment based on which box you check, then why even have the boxes there to check in the first place?

Maybe the pen manufacturer's lobby wants to guarantee that we use more ink. I bet that's it.

(I like your justification of the term African American - it's positive even if it's a reactive/comparative label to the negative historical context. Though I doubt most people would take that impression in today's world)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I am american, Im not Polish American, I dont sit there and constently complain because Germans killed most my ancestors...

I'm German-Swedish-Danish-Irish-Scottish-French-etc.-pre&post Revolutionary War-American

Trying to define myself as a function of my ancestry just leaves me very conflicted.

If I'm simply European-American, is it fair for me to lump myself in with Spanish and Italians and Albanians and Polish and the Greek - Americans?

That's brings a thought, African-anything is pretty broad - there were a multitude of different cultures on that continent in the last millenium. Which one(s) would you pick to identify with?

Maybe we should back up further and just split it up into a few groups: Amazon basin, Nile, Tigrus-Euphrates, and Yangtzee Rivers-Seat-of Civilization-Americans. I have no idea which one I have bits of genetics from.

It's an interesting discussion. But if a self label in the end has positive results overall, then more power to it. Right now, I don't see any benefit to American society overall by putting each other into little boxes, but it's a bit early yet to tell.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skolls081102 0]

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A friend of mine from work is Black- not African. So he checks Other on the forms

Sementics. Been to the Caucasus lately?

How is it semantics? I was proving a point there. Not all Blacks are African-American- but we use that term to describe all Black people. It makes absolutley no sense to do so.
I was talking to my buddy today about this forum, and he just started laughing. I asked him what he was laughing about, and he explained to me that he has absolutley NO idea of where his Black heritage is from. He knows that he is part Indian and Italian, but no idea, where in his roots, the Black comes from.

The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

[dorbie 0]

The point being made is that not all whites are from the Caucasus region, but we're still called caucasians. i.e. the name in itself becomes the abstract description of the appearance and not a literal definition of origin.

Not my point......

[Skolls081102 0]

Understandable- that's why I call myself American. Not Italian/French/German-American. Just American- no need to specify where from, because I'm from North America (the good ole USA)

The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.