No Fascism here

[EBSB52 0]

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i'm talking about the outlandish benefits that unions usually demand. when the company takes a hit and the employees don't share the strain of it, something has to give.

Ya, like health care for their family..... the nerve of those motherfuckers.

[kallend 2,148]

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speaking of unions, gm is probably going to be brought down by the uaw unions evetually. seems that most workers are too interested in their paycheck and not interested enough in the success of their source of income.

And CEO's are still demanding huge bomuses and pay while bitching about worker's benefits.

Like Fiorina's $21M severance package for her lousy job running HP?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[EBSB52 0]

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How do you figure this equates to "fascism"?

Definition: fas·cism

1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

Although your definition is corect, it only addresses a puny part of what Fascism is. Fascism, in the fiscal sense, is the marriage of corp and gov. Here's a great site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Here's a general overview:

The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that

exalts nation and sometimes race above the individual
uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly suppress political opposition
engages in severe economic and social regimentation
engages in corporatism
implements totalitarianism

This is what I've said fro a long time:

Fascism developed in opposition to socialism and communism, although some early Fascists were themselves former Marxists. In 1932, Mussolini declared in The Doctrine of Fascism:

Fascism developed from Socialism and Coommunism, but soonafter rejected thise ideologies. Fascism is alive and well in the US.

[juanesky 0]

hhmmm I like cheese...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[lawrocket 3]

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And most rich elites see United go the way of Continental, busting unions, lowering wages, being a POS airline to work for.

When I brought up Eastern Airlines, if you recall they tried to bust the union and could not. The end result was that the company went bankrupt, liquidated, sold routes and eventually closed up shop. All those workers lobbying for more pay and benefits ended up looking for work - this is anathema to worker protection.

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Where is that Fascist Reagan to help bust United as he did for Continental and the Air Traffic Controllers when you need him?

You talk about fascism and dictatorialism as if it is a bad thing. Then you implicitly laud the Air Traffic Controllers for going on strike - against their oath - attempting to hold the country's infrastructure hostage until they got their way. If I can look at a defining moment in the decline of unions in the US, that was one of them because it seemed the American people as a whole were fed up with union tactics like that.

By the way, replacement ATC's quickly filled in and did an admirable job, too. The unions didn't think anyone else could do the job. They were wrong.

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Republicans/rich/elite - for - union busting and cheap labor

Democrats/ACLU/poor - for - labor unions and worker rights, for the working people

Isn't it amazing how unions are supposedly for workers' rights, and yet they agree to collective bargaining agreements that benefit the established workers and screw the unestablished - those who need the most protection?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Gravitymaster 0]

In other words, a Ponzi Scheme.

[juanesky 0]

I bet you he is eager to find Hoffa and back him up as a presidential candidate..

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[lawrocket 3]

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In other words, a Ponzi Scheme.

No, a union is a mixture between a Ponzi Sceheme and a Protection Racket. A Ponzi Scheme is one where the investor expects a benefit, but the benefit can only be paid by future investors who expect their own benefit. For example, Social Security. Once new investors are not put into it, the system collapses.

Wiht unions, the employers are the investors. In exchange for the employers playing ball, the union will do its job for an increased fee.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[dorbie 0]

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Shit,...you guys are right...

Thanks!

BEER!

[EBSB52 0]

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And most rich elites see United go the way of Continental, busting unions, lowering wages, being a POS airline to work for.

When I brought up Eastern Airlines, if you recall they tried to bust the union and could not. The end result was that the company went bankrupt, liquidated, sold routes and eventually closed up shop. All those workers lobbying for more pay and benefits ended up looking for work - this is anathema to worker protection.

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Where is that Fascist Reagan to help bust United as he did for Continental and the Air Traffic Controllers when you need him?

You talk about fascism and dictatorialism as if it is a bad thing. Then you implicitly laud the Air Traffic Controllers for going on strike - against their oath - attempting to hold the country's infrastructure hostage until they got their way. If I can look at a defining moment in the decline of unions in the US, that was one of them because it seemed the American people as a whole were fed up with union tactics like that.

By the way, replacement ATC's quickly filled in and did an admirable job, too. The unions didn't think anyone else could do the job. They were wrong.

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Republicans/rich/elite - for - union busting and cheap labor

Democrats/ACLU/poor - for - labor unions and worker rights, for the working people

Isn't it amazing how unions are supposedly for workers' rights, and yet they agree to collective bargaining agreements that benefit the established workers and screw the unestablished - those who need the most protection?

When I brought up Eastern Airlines, if you recall they tried to bust the union and could not. The end result was that the company went bankrupt, liquidated, sold routes and eventually closed up shop. All those workers lobbying for more pay and benefits ended up looking for work - this is anathema to worker protection.

Well I worked for Eastern in 84 for a short while and the union agreed to an 18% stock purchase. Of course I got pennies on the dollar by the time it sold, but the union did a lot to help the airline survive w/o the Fascist courts interveining. Any more shining examples?

You talk about fascism and dictatorialism as if it is a bad thing.

I'm sorry, the US doctrine about individual rights is all fucked up and Fascism is great.

Then you implicitly laud the Air Traffic Controllers for going on strike - against their oath - attempting to hold the country's infrastructure hostage until they got their way.

Yes, so their oath is license for the gov to pay them as they wish?
W/o a strike possibility the gov will run amuck..... case in point, look at what we now have.

If I can look at a defining moment in the decline of unions in the US, that was one of them because it seemed the American people as a whole were fed up with union tactics like that.


You act as if the people have a say inthe least? Are you fucking serious?

The decline in US organized labor was the start of the Reagan Admin when Fascist boy gave corps all the tools they needed to bust unions via federal judges. As for, "union tactics like that" address the 18% mandatory stock participation that was agreed to by the union for the good of the companies survival. Kind of let the wind out of your argument, counselor.

By the way, replacement ATC's quickly filled in and did an admirable job, too. The unions didn't think anyone else could do the job. They were wrong.

Absolutely, Fascist America 1/ workers 0

Now we have NAFTA and incentives to ship manufacturing to China at the expense of the US worker; are you going to applaud the US gov and US corps now? Of course you will silently, but not overtly.

Isn't it amazing how unions are supposedly for workers' rights, and yet they agree to collective bargaining agreements that benefit the established workers and screw the unestablished - those who need the most protection?

Really, they have apprentice programs that bring people into the franchise. Besides, counselor, you know about duty and collective barganing provides a direct duty to the people in the organization. Furthermore, labor unions want all labor to be organized, that way they can control the work being done - organized labor orgs hate unorganized labor.

[EBSB52 0]

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speaking of unions, gm is probably going to be brought down by the uaw unions evetually. seems that most workers are too interested in their paycheck and not interested enough in the success of their source of income.

And a glut of gas guzzling SUVs at dealers has zero to do with it.....

[EBSB52 0]

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speaking of unions, gm is probably going to be brought down by the uaw unions evetually. seems that most workers are too interested in their paycheck and not interested enough in the success of their source of income.

And CEO's are still demanding huge bomuses and pay while bitching about worker's benefits.

Like Fiorina's $21M severance package for her lousy job running HP?

Precisely

[lawrocket 3]

you know about duty and collective barganing provides a direct duty to the people in the organization.

A union is a corporation, ain't it? A fat bureacracy with wealthy men at the top and the little man at the bottom paying for the honor of having the wealthy and powerful on their side.

Yep! A CORPORATION!

edited to add: Were you grateful to your union when you lost your job at Eastern? Did you think your union had anything to do with it? Or was it all, completely 100 percent Frank Lorenzo?

Having worked for Eastern, you'll probably remember that Eastern started its inverted dive with the deregulation Act of 1978, brought on by that champion Carter and those democrats in Congress, eh? Eastern, who had high operating costs, couldn't compete. by the mid-80's, Eastern was screwed with its high costs in competing with cheapo airlines that offered no frills. That's why Borman sold it o Lorenzo.

Of course, he shares a lot of the blame, too. To keep Eatern afloat, he had to cut costs. If I recall it was the machinists who went on strike first when Lorenzo wanted you guys to take a cut in benefits. The pilots joined the strike. Eastern lost revenue and went belly up.

So everyone lost their jobs with Eastern. Except the heads of the labor unions...

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that way they can control the work being done

Gee. I always thought employers should be the ones controlling what work is to be done. If my employees decide what work my firm is supposed to be doing, I have a little chat with them. In fact, my clients decide what work I am to do for them, since I am their employee.

My God. I want you to run a company someday to get a better idea about what employers deal with.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[EBSB52 0]

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you know about duty and collective barganing provides a direct duty to the people in the organization.

A union is a corporation, ain't it? A fat bureacracy with wealthy men at the top and the little man at the bottom paying for the honor of having the wealthy and powerful on their side.

Yep! A CORPORATION!

edited to add: Were you grateful to your union when you lost your job at Eastern? Did you think your union had anything to do with it? Or was it all, completely 100 percent Frank Lorenzo?

Having worked for Eastern, you'll probably remember that Eastern started its inverted dive with the deregulation Act of 1978, brought on by that champion Carter and those democrats in Congress, eh? Eastern, who had high operating costs, couldn't compete. by the mid-80's, Eastern was screwed with its high costs in competing with cheapo airlines that offered no frills. That's why Borman sold it o Lorenzo.

Of course, he shares a lot of the blame, too. To keep Eatern afloat, he had to cut costs. If I recall it was the machinists who went on strike first when Lorenzo wanted you guys to take a cut in benefits. The pilots joined the strike. Eastern lost revenue and went belly up.

So everyone lost their jobs with Eastern. Except the heads of the labor unions...

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that way they can control the work being done

Gee. I always thought employers should be the ones controlling what work is to be done. If my employees decide what work my firm is supposed to be doing, I have a little chat with them. In fact, my clients decide what work I am to do for them, since I am their employee.

My God. I want you to run a company someday to get a better idea about what employers deal with.

A union is a corporation, ain't it? A fat bureacracy with wealthy men at the top and the little man at the bottom paying for the honor of having the wealthy and powerful on their side.

Yep! A CORPORATION!


Just because many/most US corps are codled with and essentially past of the gov doesn't mean it's exclusive. Not all corps suck and I've never stated that. Any group that fights for the the rights of the poor/miidle class starts at OK with me, and then Idecide what they're about based upon their deeds. Nice try to convolute all corps as having 1 agenda and to be Fascist.

edited to add: Were you grateful to your union when you lost your job at Eastern? Did you think your union had anything to do with it? Or was it all, completely 100 percent Frank Lorenzo?


I was just hired on into the 18%, so it wasn't as if I was vested all those years. They did voluntarily concede the 18% stock purchase, essentially an 18% pay cut, so what are they supposed to do - give the other 82%?

As for Lorenzo's fault, since other airline survived, I blame it on some level of management.

Having worked for Eastern, you'll probably remember that Eastern started its inverted dive with the deregulation Act of 1978, brought on by that champion Carter and those democrats in Congress, eh?

Wait, I thought you were for derugulation. Was it you that gave the example of Ma Bell and the monopoly? Pick a side of the fence. I was never for dereg of the airlines. As for the Dems championing that, post some proof.

My politicas aren't lock-steped as I've seen most Repubs. I am critical of Clinto for signing NAFTA, even tho Bush 1 started it, he signed it. Clinton pardoned SLimington and did a couple other things I disagree with, so I don't always agree with the Dem Party. I'm not convinced Derug was a Democratoc baby.

Of course, he shares a lot of the blame, too. To keep Eatern afloat, he had to cut costs. If I recall it was the machinists who went on strike first when Lorenzo wanted you guys to take a cut in benefits. The pilots joined the strike. Eastern lost revenue and went belly up.

Right, and the machinist's union conceded to 18% pay cuts, so where is your shining example? If they stood firm w/o concession you might have a point.

So everyone lost their jobs with Eastern. Except the heads of the labor unions...

They negotiated enough w/o giving everything away. They have a duty to work for and represent the workers that pay them dues, do yot think the union should have asked the workers to cinceed more?

No, the union lost theri dues and likely furloughed, laid off members. Management has direct control of corps, not union orgs, but you will offload the blame to unions. Isn't that like blaming your parents when your kids turn out like crap?

Gee. I always thought employers should be the ones controlling what work is to be done. If my employees decide what work my firm is supposed to be doing, I have a little chat with them. In fact, my clients decide what work I am to do for them, since I am their employee.

Comparing a workforce of possibly 1000's of workers in a factiry to a 1 on 1 client-lawyer relationship isn't even apples and oranges.

What you're missing is that employers will cut costs and exploit workers if it helps the bottom line, so federal laws and unions are supposed to balance the scales. If corps acted respeonsibly we wouldn't need OSHA, labor orgs or many other entities that are here to protect worker's health and rights. But we see large corps run amuck and exploit workers if they go unregulated.

My God. I want you to run a company someday to get a better idea about what employers deal with.

I can symathize with the headaches. I'm not slaming corps alltogether, I'm slamming US Fascist policies that side with corp at every level all the way to the courts.

[Kennedy 0]

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Having worked for Eastern, you'll probably remember that Eastern started its inverted dive with the deregulation Act of 1978, brought on by that champion Carter and those democrats in Congress, eh?

As for the Dems championing that, post some proof.

My politicas aren't lock-steped as I've seen most Repubs. I am critical of Clinto for signing NAFTA, even tho Bush 1 started it, he signed it. Clinton pardoned SLimington and did a couple other things I disagree with, so I don't always agree with the Dem Party. I'm not convinced Derug was a Democratoc baby.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/jan-june03/airlines_1-9.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_Deregulation_Act

Carter intentionally brought in the man who dismantled the CAB, and democratic senator Howard Cannon introduced S 2493 to deregulate the airlines. It was the democrats.

Personally I'm not against the idea of the airline deregulation, I just don't understand why you would intentionally subject an industry to market forces and then costantly step in to bail them out when they have trouble coping.

If the market isn't supporting a business, that business needs to adapt of go under.

I still don't understand why you hate government control when you call it fascism, but love government control when you call it socialism. They're basically the same thing.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[lawrocket 3]

I think there is something you are missing. The reason why the airlines were deregulated was not to help the airlines but to help the population. Air travel became less expensive, meaning more people were able to utilize it.

So a few sects of the population got pissed off? The businesses that could not have succeeded were it not for government intervention fell off the map. You say the government sides with corps every time? Yeah, tell that to Eastern, who was destroyed by a change in government policy that allowed its flawed business model to be shown for what it was.

Again, did the union leadership protect the workers for Eastern Airlines? Looking at it in hindsight, can you say that the union protected you from getting the pink slip? Actually, according to you, the union conceded a bad deal. And the airline still went under.

Why on earth do you think the mob has always been so into unions? The mob is interested in one thing - making money. And unions are money making machines! Where do they get their money? From you! From other low-level employees.

Unions are an opportunity parasite. They'll tell you that they are fighting for you and doing things to protect you against evil employers. You all fall in line and send them the money. Keep it rising to the top! For example, in 1997, International UFCW President Douglas Dorty's salary was $263,197. He also had an expense account of over 70k, bringing him over $300,000 that year.

The UFCW in 1997 took in over $125,000,000 in dues. Of that, over $80,000,000 went to full time staff salaries and expenses to the salaried elites who run it.

The difference between a union and a corporations that you hate so much is that corporations offer a product. Union elite use their low-level members as pawn and tools to fund their greed.

Unions are not for protecting the poor. Unions continue to protect only themselves at the expense of the workers, business and society as a whole...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

So would a good example of Facism out of control be a community helping to buy a stadium for a pro-sports team?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

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Fascism, in the fiscal sense...

Fiscal Fascism. O-kay...

Maybe you should be specific like that, instead of just calling it Fascism. Because the general term for Fascism has nothing to do with what you posted.

And if you start creating sub-categories for specific crummy things like that, then pretty soon everything becomes "fascist".

And when everything becomes fascist, the term begins to lose all meaning.

It must be frightening for you living in a world full of fascists.

[mnealtx 0]

I think if they put "fascism" and "fascist" on the filter list, EBS wouldn't hardly be able to post anymore....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Ron 10]

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The sides are obvious and defined, I don't think we need to reestablish them for everyone.

Republicans/rich/elite - for - union busting and cheap labor

Democrats/ACLU/poor - for - labor unions and worker rights, for the working people

Right more like

Republicans/willing to work/have personal responsibility-Companies that succeed based on doing a good job for good pay.

Dems/ACLU/Lazy people who want handouts-People who want handouts and to be "saved" by those that get off their butts and work and save.

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It also prompted a renewed warning from some members of Congress that taxpayers may someday have to bail out the deficit-riddled government pension agency, which now will assume an additional $6.6 billion in pension obligations from United.

''Taxpayers had better buckle up because we will be in for a bumpy ride of bailout after bailout, as more and more corporations dump their pension plan obligations on the PBGC,'' said U.S. Rep. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., referring to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. that already is operating at a more than $23 billion deficit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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i'm talking about the outlandish benefits that unions usually demand. when the company takes a hit and the employees don't share the strain of it, something has to give.

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Ya, like health care for their family..... the nerve of those motherfuckers.

I guess it would be better to just run the company into the ground.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I guess it would be better to just run the company into the ground.

I hear your current president has some experience with that....