Good news! Marine cleared in shooting probe!

[Ron 10]

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The U.S has a history of sending the prisoners to third countries to get tortured in order to gather information. (Abu, grahib in Irak, Guantanamo bay in Cuba, morocco, Saudi Arab, etc).

In case you missed it the terrorists have a history of boobie trapping bodies, playing dead and then trying to kill you, playing dead and waiting for you to help, and then blowing themselves up to kill you.

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It seems to me that surrendering to the U.S is not the safest choice.

Well this guy thought the same thing and now as Rhino put it "Has a bullet where his brain used to be". I think surrendering would ahve been better than dead. But American troops don't have that choice since the bad guys will kill them on TV with a big knife.

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I don´t blame them for playing dead. They don´t have much choices, do they?

Bullshit, they have plenty of choices....

1. They could not pick up a gun and try to kill soldiers. This in fact is the FASTEST way to get rid of us.

2. They could fight to the death.

3. They couldfight better and not get shot

4. They could surrender, and actually mean it. Our medics will patch them up and yes, they will go to jail, but will not be killed.

5. They could not fight dirty and then our guys will not think they are still in danger around wounded men.

They have PLENTY of options.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhino 0]

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war crimes would not have gone unpunished.
I am talking about war crimes such as abu grahib, guantanamo bay, Civilian bombings (aka collateral damage), execution of unarmed cambatants,

CVS Pharmacy has a sale on king sized tampons.. If you hurry maybe you can get them on sale... Hurry quick!!

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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You may make uneducated quesses and play "Chairborne Ranger"

That was a good one

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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They couldfight better and not get shot

I can't believe you actually believe this. Yes a well trained army has a better chance of survival than a poorly trained one. But in the time of war, even the best could be in the wrong place at the wrong time. War is about killing and being killed. War is a horrible thing and should only be ventured into as a last resort. Unfortunately too many people (throughout history, not just now) have used war for personal gain.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Frenchy68 0]

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CVS Pharmacy has a sale on king sized tampons.. If you hurry maybe you can get them on sale... Hurry quick!!

Tampons have effectively been used by some soldiers to treat high caliber bullet wounds. Stocking up on them is always a good idea.
I got this fact from my car mechanic.
Carry on.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Ron 10]

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In Reply To
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They couldfight better and not get shot

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I can't believe you actually believe this. Yes a well trained army has a better chance than a poorly trained one. But in the time of war, even the best could be in the wrong place at the wrong time. War is about killing and being killed. War is a horrible thing and should only be ventured into as a last resort. Unfortunately too many people (throughout history, not just now) have used war to for personal gain.

I'd like to point out that there was a smiley face after that sentance. It looked alot like this ().

Its called a joke.

However the other points are quite correct.

Forgive me for the joke, I was only tying to inject humor...Ya know like the "Chairborne Ranger" and as someone else said to "buy tampons."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Darius11 12]

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All the dead needed to do was to surrender. They did not and they died. Sometimes stupidity hurts, sometimes it kills you. If you shoot at people act like you are dead then you have to deal with what happens next.

I don’t know man if you come in to my country, come in to my town, then come in and blast 3 of my buddies who were unarmed. I think I would just do my best to live. Playing dead doesn’t sound like a bad idea when the only purpose that solder served was as an executioner.

Now if he had done what he was supposed to ever heard of POWs. Then the guy who was murdered should have raised his hand if he could he was injured after all and said hey I give up, or hey I was just in here and not one of the guys shooting at you. We take the chance of explaining any thing away when we shoot first and ask questions later.

The Marine was wrong and should have been punished period.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Ron 10]

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Now if he had done what he was supposed to ever heard of POWs. Then the guy who was murdered should have raised his hand if he could he was injured after all and said hey I give up, or hey I was just in here and not one of the guys shooting at you. We take the chance of explaining any thing away when we shoot first and ask questions later.

He didn't...He tried to pretend to be dead. A tactic used a lot by those guys.

If he had tried to surrender..We would not be talking about this.

Also you keep forgetting that the Marines were fired on from the Mosque.

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The Marine was wrong and should have been punished period.

The Marine was justified and it was called a good shoot.

People with a lot more access to the facts have said that...You and your CNN report do not come close.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Darius11 12]

Thats not what anyone said...We have said that unless you have been a soldier, you have no clue to the situation...You may make uneducated quesses and play "Chairborne Ranger" all you like...Just don't expect anyone to care.

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Actually I do care and he made very good points. The only people who don’t care are the ones like your self who still haven’t been able to admit we started this war under false reasons. The whole world knows that, yet the few of you who never seem to see reason as a valid point still argue even about that.


So whose opinion shouldn’t matter someone who tries to understand what actually happened with the facts present, or someone who is 100% sure of him self 100% of the time.

I don’t know I still like to THINK

I have never seen you, Rhino, and a few others ever admit any fault of the US.
are solder never wrong? Because you are a marine you never can be a rapist, murderer, just an all around scumbag?

Grow up. Your GI Joe pride is blinding you'r since of reality.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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[justinb138 0]

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Actually I do care and he made very good points. The only people who don’t care are the ones like your self who still haven’t been able to admit we started this war under false reasons. The whole world knows that, yet the few of you who never seem to see reason as a valid point still argue even about that.

Ah, so that is what your argument is based on. The marine is guilty because we started the war under false reasoning.

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So whose opinion shouldn’t matter someone who tries to understand what actually happened with the facts present, or someone who is 100% sure of him self 100% of the time.

He has been trying to explain that people that don't have the same perspective can't possibly understand the situation as well as those that do.

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I have never seen you, Rhino, and a few others ever admit any fault of the US.
Is solder never wrong? Because you are a marine you never can be a rapist, murderer, just an all around scumbag?

If he was tried and found guilty, we would all glady admit that he was wrong. The people involved (that understand the situation better than you or I possibly can) didn't think that what he did was out of line. I trust their judgement, you don't.

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Grow up. Your GI Joe pride is blinding you'r since of reality.

Get a clue, you're hatred of this war is affecting your ability to understand the circumstances in which this event occured.

[Ron 10]

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I have never seen you, Rhino, and a few others ever admit any fault of the US

Heres one: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1554037#1554037

In that one I say Bush getting involved with Schiavo was wrong.
In another post same subject "I wish the Bush Brothers had stayed out of it."

Same subject different post http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1543355#1543355

So there is a case where I thought Bush himself was wrong.

I have also admitted that there were no WMD's...But I guess since it does not fit into your view off the world you will not lets facts bother you.

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Actually I do care and he made very good points. The only people who don’t care are the ones like your self who still haven’t been able to admit we started this war under false reasons. The whole world knows that, yet the few of you who never seem to see reason as a valid point still argue even about that.

This whole paragraph has jack shit to do with the tactical situation....You can't get over this part to allow yourself to look at the incident in question. Your view is biased.

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So whose opinion shouldn’t matter someone who tries to understand what actually happened with the facts present, or someone who is 100% sure of him self 100% of the time.

And you think your opinion of a guy that has never worn a uniform and got his intel from CNN knows better than the guy taht was in the room? Or the command?

Get real.

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Grow up. Your GI Joe pride is blinding you'r since of reality.

#1 thats a personal attack.
#2 Your hatred for the US is blinding you.

Oh, and we have put people in jail for acting stupid.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Darius11 12]

Was the guy on the ground injured? Yes


Were they unarmed? Yes

Did the Marine shoot the guy at point blank range in the back of the head? Yes


Were the marines being shot at from the same location? Yes

Are the marines in harms way? Yes

Do we train are marines not to make mistakes under pursuer? Yes

When a mistake is made should they be rightfully punished? Yes

Do you think a US military judge well go softer on a US marine then one that is not part of the same team? Yes

Is it wrong to execute a combatant who is not armed or is injured? Yes

Witch one of these facts do you not agree with?


So tell me what am I missing from the tactical satiation? I really want to know how this can be justified

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Your hatred for the US is blinding you.

You seem to forget in this country we are allowed to have are own opinion.
No matter how many times you want to say I hate this country it will not work.


When you have someone you love who has a problem or has made a mistake do you close your eyes and pretend you don’t see any thing? Or do you face them and do what a good friend would do even if it would make them mad, or hurt them. I choose to admit are mistakes so we can improve. Only when mistakes can be admitted is their room for growth.

Blind loyalty will hurt this country not help.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Ron 10]

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Was the guy on the ground injured? Yes


Were they unarmed? Yes

Did the Marine shoot the guy at point blank range in the back of the head? Yes


Were the marines being shot at from the same location? Yes

Are the marines in harms way? Yes

Do we train are marines not to make mistakes under pursuer? Yes

When a mistake is made should they be rightfully punished? Yes

Do you think a US military judge well go softer on a US marine then one that is not part of the same team? Yes

Is it wrong to execute a combatant who is not armed or is injured? Yes

Witch one of these facts do you not agree with?

None of them.

But you forgot to add these:

Does the enemy booby trap bodies? Yes.

Does the enemy strike under the guise of being injured dead, or willing to surrender? Yes.

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So tell me what am I missing from the tactical satiation? I really want to know how this can be justified

All of the above. Plus you refuse to accept any answer that is not in line with you preconcieved views.

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You seem to forget in this country we are allowed to have are own opinion.

Yes, but those opinions need to balanced with knowledge. You are a whuffo in these matters...Your opinion weighs right with the whuffos that read a news report about skydiving and make uneducated comments.

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When you have someone you love who has a problem or has made a mistake do you close your eyes and pretend you don’t see any thing?

No, and it has cost me love. This is not the same thing, you are making comments based off of news reports....The command made a choice based off of the situation...A situation you know nothing about.

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Blind loyalty will hurt this country not help

Blind hatred will not help it either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

>Grow up. Your GI Joe pride is blinding you'r since of reality.

Darius, cut it out.

>#2 Your hatred for the US is blinding you.

Ron, cut it out.

[Darius11 12]

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Were they unarmed? Yes

Did the Marine shoot the guy at point blank range in the back of the head? Yes


Were the marines being shot at from the same location? Yes

Are the marines in harms way? Yes

Do we train are marines not to make mistakes under pursuer? Yes

When a mistake is made should they be rightfully punished? Yes

Do you think a US military judge well go softer on a US marine then one that is not part of the same team? Yes

Is it wrong to execute a combatant who is not armed or is injured? Yes

Rons adds

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Does the enemy booby trap bodies? Yes.

Does the enemy strike under the guise of being injured dead, or willing to surrender? Yes.

Agreed on your two points. I still think shooting that man was not the right thing to do.
He was unarmed and was not booby-trapped.
I don’t think the assumptions of a booby-trap gives the right to murder.





Blind loyalty will hurt this country not help
***Blind hatred will not help it either.***
Agreed
Oh well I am done with this thread.

Have a good weekend



Edit: Sorry Bill

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[n23x 0]

So, let's allay all these statements of "armchair quaterbacks" and being "whuffos" to the situation, and the really, really witty "chairborne rangers" (I'll be honest, I laughed).

I have never served, nor do I ever intend to. It's not for me. And you're absolutely right, having never served I will never know what it's like to:

*Worry constantly for my life and the lives of my unit.

*Be in the moment and utilize all my training while being shot at, and try to make the right decisions, because my life depends on it.

*Shoot or kill someone.

*Go without sex for >6 months while my wife is at home fucking someone else's brains out, to whom she now signs letters with "Love Ya".

You're right, I won't know what any of that feels like. Nor do I ever intend to.

But I don't need to.

We are not examining the emotion of the moment. We are examining the soldiers actions. If we were examining the emotions of the situation, we would never question anybody's actions because they could say "I was scared" or "I was amped up and everything happened so fast" or "I was trying to kill me some of them ******" (insert hillbilly racial slur here), and boop, free to go.

Further, we cannot justify an action because "terrorists are known to play dead, wounded, or surrendering". It is a blanket statement that justifies far too many actions.

But with your justification, we should shoot all of them, wounded, surrendering, etc., which is preposterous.

Rhino, those tampon jokes, while moderately funny, don't really bring much to the discussion.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[Ron 10]

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Agreed on your two points. I still think shooting that man was not the right thing to do.
He was unarmed and was not booby-trapped.

OK we might be on to something here.

I will AGREE that if you *know* that the guy is unarmed and is NOT booby trapped you should not shoot him.....Fair?

Now, how do you *know* he is unarmed, does not have an IED, and is in fact not playing dead to jump you? Please answer this.

We had a joke in the Army..."How do you know you are in a mine field?"...answer "Your buddy lets you know." Thats a bad way to find something out.

See what you do is approach with caution. You look to see who is "faking" and you demand a surrender. If they ignore you, you can't tell if they are planning something, and still are faking it...Then what do you do? Wait for them to try and kill you? You gave the the chance to surrender...If they still play dead...They are up to no good.

Simple fact we treat our captives to medical aid, and food....They would rather die killing us.

So what do you do when you enter a house where you have been shot from and find an enemy that is known for palying dead to kill you, clearly pretending to be dead and not obeying your commands?

Please...Tell me what you would do?

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I don’t think the assumptions of a booby-trap gives the right to murder

Nope, but when you tell them to surrender, and they do not...And you are unable to determine if they are doing it to kill you or not, you make the choice to kill they guy that was tying to kill you and not risk dying to find out if he is gonna try to kill you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Darius11 12]

Ready for this Ron.


I see your pointt. If what you described happened. That the marine tried to get the man playing dead to surrender or show any sign of life and he still played dead then the shot is justified in my eyes.

Simple reason being that in the marines mind he was shooting an already dead man.

If that was the case I see your point.


I know I said I was done with this thread but after you explanation I thought it would be fair for me to say
If what you described happened then I am wrong for thinking it was a murder.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Ron 10]

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We are not examining the emotion of the moment. We are examining the soldiers actions. If we were examining the emotions of the situation, we would never question anybody's actions because they could say "I was scared" or "I was amped up and everything happened so fast" or "I was trying to kill me some of them ******" (insert hillbilly racial slur here), and boop, free to go.

And what I am saying is without the Tactical knowledge....you have no clue what the right course of action is....

Like I said before how would you want them to handle going into a room they had JSUT recieved fire, and returned fire. Upon entering the room you see four bodies. One is clearly "pretending" to be dead. You know that the enemy has in the past (as like that DAY less than a block away) used a body or used an IED to kill a person when they went to search/capture them. you try to get the to surrender, but the continue to play dead.

What do you do?

Well? And you have to act fast...What do you do?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I see your pointt. If what you described happened. That the marine tried to get the man playing dead to surrender or show any sign of life and he still played dead then the shot is justified in my eyes.

Simple reason being that in the marines mind he was shooting an already dead man.

If that was the case I see your point.

And I will GLADLY admit that if he did it just to kill him...He was wrong as hell. I want to believe that the fact he was not brought up on charges means it was a good shoot.

There is a video on here about the guys that shot the man as he crawled around....I would REALLY like to know the story about it. The video makes it look really bad...I'd like to know if there is more to the story. If it is proven that it was a bad shoot....Then I want them to pay.

Same with the Marine officer that put that stupid sign "No better friend, no worse enemy" on the car after he claims to have defended himself....

Even if the shoot is justified...He should be punished for being stupid and leaving that sign. That is unacceptable for a soldier, much less an officer.

See we can agree. Both on each others POV.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[n23x 0]

In response to what would I do, Ron, in that exact situation, I'm not sure. I, quite obviously, have no combat training, and the only thing I like shooting at are cans and raccoons.

Further, I agree that it must be an overwhelmingly stressful situation, and that the protection of ones own life and the lives of their fellow soldiers becomes paramount.

My concern is that we allow this stress to obscure what is really right and wrong, because of actions that happened previously, with entirely different people.

If the guy was hiding an IED, or had a weapon he was intending to use (and capable of using) then yah, I understand. If we use that possibility to justify an unarmed shooting with any frequency, then I think that is wrong.

Disagreeing with a present action doesn't mean I have to presently have a better option, it just means I think we should be looking for one.

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And I will GLADLY admit that if he did it just to kill him...He was wrong as hell. I want to believe that the fact he was not brought up on charges means it was a good shoot.

There is a video on here about the guys that shot the man as he crawled around....I would REALLY like to know the story about it. The video makes it look really bad...I'd like to know if there is more to the story. If it is proven that it was a bad shoot....Then I want them to pay.

Same with the Marine officer that put that stupid sign "No better friend, no worse enemy" on the car after he claims to have defended himself....

Even if the shoot is justified...He should be punished for being stupid and leaving that sign. That is unacceptable for a soldier, much less an officer.

I agree with this.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[bodypilot90 0]

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I don´t blame them for playing dead. They don´t have much choices, do they?

Yes they did, and they died because of.....

A) They hung with assholes shooting from a mosque
B) They were not smart enough to give up
C) They decided not to be a part of the gov't but to be lawless thugs

[rehmwa 2]

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Disagreeing with a present action doesn't mean I have to presently have a better option, .

This is a pretty common trait in people today

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[n23x 0]

Doesn't mean it's wrong.

Doesn't mean I don't work towards a change.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[christelsabine 1]

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I don´t blame them for playing dead. They don´t have much choices, do they?

Yes they did, and they died because of.....

A) They hung with assholes shooting from a mosque
B) They were not smart enough to give up
C) They decided not to be a part of the gov't but to be lawless thugs

You simply ignored the most important reason:

They died because of alien invadors in their own country.
Invadors beeing armed from teeth to tooth. Invadors, which did not even stop entering a mosque with their dirty shoes. Not to talk about killing citizens in their own church.
That's fact.

Facts could be painted as long as you want, the truth behind it still remains the same.

dudeist skydiver # 3105