Gawain 0
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I have actually read quite alot on the 80-88 war as I spent more than 50 days off the coast of Iran and Iraq in 81 (we flew night ops every night. The IO is awsome from the flight deck at night. It shimmers like glass). Considering that Iraq had US backing and their use of mustard gas with US approval (a violation of the Geneva Convention) amongst other agents, Iran was able to stave off an all out onslaught. OK, kicked ass is kinda strong. I'll say they held a bully back. I wonder what the shift might have been if Saddam was able to make his way to Tehran. Kinda makes you shudder to think it.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
Gawain 0
The US never gave tacit approval for the use of the chemical agents supplied.
As for Iraq's inability to reach Tehran, that was, in my opinion, Saddam's underestimation of Iranian instability after their revolution and their ability to handle the burden of refugees from Afghanistan. It also proves how much of a military-half-wit Saddam was, even with US technical support.
This brings about another point. Guys in my unit who have been there once/twice and getting ready to go again (3Q/4Q this year) tell me that these guys (Iraqi NG, etc) are very slow to learn and lack "staying" power in terms of discipline. Iranian/Persian mentalities are decidely different, and much stronger.
As for Iraq's inability to reach Tehran, that was, in my opinion, Saddam's underestimation of Iranian instability after their revolution and their ability to handle the burden of refugees from Afghanistan. It also proves how much of a military-half-wit Saddam was, even with US technical support.
This brings about another point. Guys in my unit who have been there once/twice and getting ready to go again (3Q/4Q this year) tell me that these guys (Iraqi NG, etc) are very slow to learn and lack "staying" power in terms of discipline. Iranian/Persian mentalities are decidely different, and much stronger.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
mr2mk1g 10
QuoteThe US never gave tacit approval for the use of the chemical agents supplied
One does have to wonder then what they expected Iraq to do with them.
They knew fully what they were going to be used for and stood back while Saddam deployed them
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
Darius11 12
QuoteIran still has no nukes, so it will do nothing to Israel but cower politely.
Quote
Wow you just made me see once again that
Iran has every right to become
a nuclear power at least not to get bullied.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
Darius11 12
QuoteI have actually read quite alot on the 80-88 war as I spent more than 50 days off the coast of Iran and Iraq in 81 (we flew night ops every night. The IO is awsome from the flight deck at night. It shimmers like glass). Considering that Iraq had US backing and their use of mustard gas with US approval (a violation of the Geneva Convention) amongst other agents, Iran was able to stave off an all out onslaught. OK, kicked ass is kinda strong. I'll say they held a bully back. I wonder what the shift might have been if Saddam was able to make his way to Tehran. Kinda makes you shudder to think it.
Any one who thinks are government cares for any thing other then Money is in a dream world.
I love it when people try to act like we are really trying to spread freedom. wake up.
The guys running the show want to get more money and human life has no value to them.
"They hate us because we are free"
No they hate us because we have killed their children with no remorse or an apology.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain
billvon 3,120
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> The US never gave tacit approval for the use of the chemical agents supplied.
We were supplying them with military intelligence that they were using to target the Iranians with WMD's. And we were supplying them with the precursors. To claim that we didn't approve is like claiming that Hussein didn't support suicide bombers; he was sending money to martyr's families just because he felt bad for them.
We were supplying them with military intelligence that they were using to target the Iranians with WMD's. And we were supplying them with the precursors. To claim that we didn't approve is like claiming that Hussein didn't support suicide bombers; he was sending money to martyr's families just because he felt bad for them.
kallend 2,150
QuoteThe US never gave tacit approval for the use of the chemical agents supplied.
.
Tacit approval is exactly what the US did give.
tac·it adj. Not spoken: indicated tacit approval by smiling and winking.
edited 'cos I can't make the phonetics work right.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteIran still has no nukes, so it will do nothing to Israel but cower politely.
Quote
Wow you just made me see once again that
Iran has every right to become
a nuclear power at least not to get bullied.
Every nation has the right to look for its best interest.
Quotewe've discussed it before, the more likely scenario is a nuke or a "dirty bomb" going off without a clear return address.
It's pretty hard to do - nukes leave signatures that point to a source of origin. N.Korea and Iran can't be sure that their role would stay unknown, but the costs if the info does get out is pretty clear.
They may rattle their swords, but their nukes will be defensive weapons. Just as it is in Israel.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe US continuation of supplying arms to facilitate an arms race in the mid-east does nothing but jepordize relationships with the Muslim people.
Yeah, you're right. We should just let the Muslims throw all those damn Jews into the sea, wiping them all out. Then the Muslims would love us once again. Peace, at last!I met a couple of Arabs at a party in Abu Dhabi several years ago that felt that Hitler's biggest mistake was not completely eradicating all the Jews. This was at a time when the Arabs were trying to eradicate each other.Quote
Adolf would have loved you for that comment, no matter how you really mean it.
Holy Moses, with that kind of thinking the world very soon will be a plain, empty desert as everybody is killing everybody and cockroaches will party all night and day longThere are more Nazi under different flags than I ever thought
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
And there are still Americans, calling Germans Nazi.
Lord, help them.
dudeist skydiver # 3105
I met a couple of Arabs at a party in Abu Dhabi several years ago that felt that Hitler's biggest mistake was not completely eradicating all the Jews. This was at a time when the Arabs were trying to eradicate each other.Quote
Holy Moses, with that kind of thinking the world very soon will be a plain, empty desert as everybody is killing everybody and cockroaches will party all night and day long
There are more Nazi under different flags than I ever thought
And there are still Americans, calling Germans Nazi.
Lord, help them.
Yes, thank you Lord, I need all the help I can get, and please convince Christel that I did not call or infer that the German people are Nazis
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.
QuoteI met a couple of Arabs at a party in Abu Dhabi several years ago that felt that Hitler's biggest mistake was not completely eradicating all the Jews. This was at a time when the Arabs were trying to eradicate each other.Quote
Holy Moses, with that kind of thinking the world very soon will be a plain, empty desert as everybody is killing everybody and cockroaches will party all night and day long
There are more Nazi under different flags than I ever thought
And there are still Americans, calling Germans Nazi.
Lord, help them.
Yes, thank you Lord, I need all the help I can get, and please convince Christel that I did not call or infer that the German people are Nazis
Sorry, Rickjump1, this was not adressed to you personally.
There still are many posters from the US calling us Nazi. The today's Germany has nothing to do with this.
Let me repeat, I did not want to to accuse you in that regards.
dudeist skydiver # 3105
QuoteQuoteI met a couple of Arabs at a party in Abu Dhabi several years ago that felt that Hitler's biggest mistake was not completely eradicating all the Jews. This was at a time when the Arabs were trying to eradicate each other.Quote
Holy Moses, with that kind of thinking the world very soon will be a plain, empty desert as everybody is killing everybody and cockroaches will party all night and day long
And there are still Americans, calling Germans Nazi.
Lord, help them.
Yes, thank you Lord, I need all the help I can get, and please convince Christel that I did not call or infer that the German people are Nazis
Sorry, Rickjump1, this was not adressed to you personally.
There still are many posters from the US calling us Nazi. The today's Germany has nothing to do with this.
Let me repeat, I did not want to to accuse you in that regards.
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.
QuoteQuotewe've discussed it before, the more likely scenario is a nuke or a "dirty bomb" going off without a clear return address.
It's pretty hard to do - nukes leave signatures that point to a source of origin.
Got a reference for that? Just how do you go about determining the source of plutonium from a dirty bomb?
Wayne
Quote
Got a reference for that? Just how do you go about determining the source of plutonium from a dirty bomb?
All plutonium is manufactured within reactors. But it's never 100% pure, and of course begins to decay immediately, so the age can be determined, and a lot can be done to point to the origin as well.
If you want some references on nuclear forensics, you can start with Lawrence Livermore Labs.
www.llnl.giv/str/March05/Hutcheon.html
Maria Wallenius's doctoral thesis on Origin Determination using mass spectrometric techniques:
ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/mat/kemia/vk/wallenius
Good police work and science makes it a very risky proposition to try to give weapons grade material to an 'untraceable' party, because odds are the US will come back for you instead. And once the nuclear threshhold has been crossed, it will be sufficient to know that Osama is in a cave in a 50 mile area. Close enough.
Quote
Good police work and science makes it a very risky proposition to try to give weapons grade material to an 'untraceable' party, because odds are the US will come back for you instead.
Even assuming you're correct about traceability, North Korea could still cover their ass by announcing beforehand that the material had been stolen. If it later turns up in a bomb, do we then retaliate?
Wayne
JohnRich 4
QuoteThere still are many posters from the US calling us Nazi.
Can you point out some messages where anyone has done this?
Someone may have made reference to the Nazis in Germany's past, or to the neo-Nazis in Germany's present. But I don't think anyone has labeled all present-day Germans as Nazis. Yet, that is what you imply. So, I'm challenging you to prove what you claim - give us a reference to where someone has done this.
I think this is just another example of your fertile imagination in misinterpreting things here.
QuoteThe today's Germany has nothing to do with this.
You're not completely rid of it.
Story: Germany's neo-Nazi upsurge
JohnRich,
there were too many posters calling the Germans/or Germany still beeing Nazi. You do not really expect me looking for all of these posts?
In fact, I don't want, it's not worth any effort at all. Spend your time on whatever you like, mine is too precious to look for such a BS.
dudeist skydiver # 3105
there were too many posters calling the Germans/or Germany still beeing Nazi. You do not really expect me looking for all of these posts?
In fact, I don't want, it's not worth any effort at all. Spend your time on whatever you like, mine is too precious to look for such a BS.
dudeist skydiver # 3105
JohnRich 4
Quotethere were too many posters calling the Germans/or Germany still beeing Nazi. You do not really expect me looking for all of these posts?
The only BS here was your claim that many people in this forum call all present-day Germans "Nazis".
I used the search feature looking for messages containing both the words "German" and "Nazi". Only 21 were found for the entire previous 12-month period. None of those messages contain the content which you claim exists.
Once again, you made a false claim here.
Once again, your credibility suffers.
When you're digging a hole and hit rock bottom: stop digging!
Quote
Even assuming you're correct about traceability, North Korea could still cover their ass by announcing beforehand that the material had been stolen. If it later turns up in a bomb, do we then retaliate?
If you were a North Korea leader, would you risk your death or the loss of your position of power (and wealth) on such a crappy bet? Where's the upside?
QuoteQuote
Even assuming you're correct about traceability, North Korea could still cover their ass by announcing beforehand that the material had been stolen. If it later turns up in a bomb, do we then retaliate?
If you were a North Korea leader, would you risk your death or the loss of your position of power (and wealth) on such a crappy bet? Where's the upside?
You're assuming sane behavior from a man who is somewhat less than that.
Wayne
In the context of how they hit Iraq in 1981, you're right. However, the US did not have a foothold in the region at the time. The US can make the strikes with superior platforms and suffer less "political" damage, since we're already "bruised" in the region.
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
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