Damned liberals

[billvon 3,116]

>Bill, what is your position on guns, concealed carry, etc.?

I think any adult, sane, law abiding citizen in the US has a right to own personal weapons. Rifles and handguns qualify. Stinger missiles probably don't. I am content to leave the details (i.e. what concealed carry means and who can do it, what the laws are on transporting/selling them etc) to local jurisdictions.

[sinker 0]

thanks for chiming in...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[justinb138 0]

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Stinger missiles probably don't.

Even if they're used for hunting?

[billvon 3,116]

>Even if they're used for hunting?

"Hey, if I'm ever in a bar and some criminal comes in with a stinger missile, don't you think I should be able to blow him to bits? Are we going to have stinger-missile-victim-disarmament zones where terrorists with stingers _know_ no one can blow them up?"

[kelpdiver 2]

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"Hey, if I'm ever in a bar and some criminal comes in with a stinger missile, don't you think I should be able to blow him to bits? Are we going to have stinger-missile-victim-disarmament zones where terrorists with stingers _know_ no one can blow them up?"

You're channeling Kellerman again.

[justinb138 0]

Well, you won't see any Stinger missles in bars in Arizona, they have laws against them!

[markd_nscr986 0]

When guns RPG's are outlawed.........Only outlaws will have RPG's

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[kallend 2,148]

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Well, you won't see any Stinger missles in bars in Arizona, they have laws against them!

Damn shame. Seems like a great militia weapon.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

You are once again confusing a militia with a guerilla or insurgent force.

Besides, RPGs are far superior for reistance groups than stingers.
Lower tech, lower cost, lots more available, any idiot can use them, etc.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kallend 2,148]

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any idiot can use them, etc.

Perfect for the militia!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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any idiot can use them, etc.

Perfect for the militia!

As your boy could surely tell you, some very intelligent people become amazingly incompetant with issued equipment. Of course, if we're talking personally owned tools and weapons (as was intended for the US militia), likelihood of proficiency is much, much greater.

Professor, you do understand what I'm saying when I talk about the differences between a miltia and a guerrilla or insurgent force, right?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Vallerina 2]

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I know, your emotional appeals make perfect sense and the other side's don't. They think the same of yours. And both sides will continue to replace intelligent discussion with emotional appeals.

That's so true!!!! I am by no means for banning guns, but they are a problem, and innocent people do (and will) get killed. Saying, "but we have laws in place against such irresponsible activity," is a common defense. Maybe laws should be more strictly enforced. I think instead of contantly defending guns, acknowledging the other side and problems because of guns would be wiser. (Likewise, acknowledging guns being used for sport and enjoyment [using them as a way to defend your home is crap, imho] would be wiser for the other side.)

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Kennedy 0]

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I know, your emotional appeals make perfect sense and the other side's don't. They think the same of yours. And both sides will continue to replace intelligent discussion with emotional appeals.

[Laugh] That's so true!

The difference is that my soundbytes are compressed truths, while theirs truly are nothing more than short, sensational, emotional appeals.
(not to mention the outright lies that are so common...)

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I am by no means for banning guns, but they are a problem, and innocent people do (and will) get killed.

Do you blame cars for deaths from auto accidents?

The problem is not the object, it's the way some people use it.

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Saying, "but we have laws in place against such irresponsible activity," is a common defense.

What would you like to do, make it illegal twice? Somehow breaking the law against murder doesn't bother him, but a second law against guns will stop him in his tracks? Come on.

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Maybe laws should be more strictly enforced.

That's worked everywhere it's been tried. Look into "Project Exile."

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I think instead of contantly defending guns, acknowledging the other side and problems because of guns would be wiser.

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using them as a way to defend your home is crap, imho

Well, opinions are like assholes, and don't let the facts get in your way. Gee, there are only two to three millions crimes stopped because of guns every year.

Should I find links to news stories from the last few days where people have used firearms to defend themselves in or around their homes? Or would facts be inconvenient to your decision making process concerning guns?

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Likewise, acknowledging guns being used for sport and enjoyment would be wiser for the other side.

The last time that point was brought up in a debate, the gun-banner's response was to shriek "Get a new hobby!"

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Vallerina 2]

Sigh....

Yes, I know. The problem isn't the gun. It's the people using them. No, the car thing is a crappy analogy.

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Gee, there are only two to three millions crimes stopped because of guns every year.

Mmmm hmm....I don't fully buy that, and let's not get into how many murders there are every year. I've been to Gary, IN numerous times without a gun, and I am fine. I even stayed overnight there many times without a gun, and I am fine.

Anyways, arguing here is useless. Instead of a debate on the problems with guns and ways to fix them, it's a constant argument where everything anyone else says is wrong.

Just because people can die doing other things does not make it acceptable for innocent people to get killed by guns. Stop using that debate. Start acknowledging that it's a problem. Just because you use guns responsibly doesn't mean other people do.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Kennedy 0]

There is a problem with crime in this country. I'll be the first to stand up and say so.

What that has to do with a gun rights vs gun control debate I still don't understand.

Do you think those murders and crimes committed with firearms would simply not happen if firearms were made illegal?
(A) There would still be a black market to supply guns to criminals, so gun murders would still happen
(B) Substitution would occur, where gun murders would decrease but murder by other means would increase.
- Is it better to be killed by something other than a gun?
(C) Contact crime numbers would explode, because criminals would no longer fear guns being pulled on them by victims.

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Gee, there are only two to three millions crimes stopped because of guns every year.

Mmmm hmm....I don't fully buy that

http://www.saf.org/journal/11Kleck.pdf#search='defensive%20gun%20uses'
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/dgufreq.html
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

There have been fourteen studies done specifically to guage this number. The highest quality study was done by Keleck and Gertz in 1995.

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let's not get into how many murders there are every year. I've been to Gary, IN numerous times without a gun, and I am fine.

Why is your personal experience more valuable than nationwide statistics when discussing national policy?

Less than 4% of the entire population are victims of crim each year here in the USA. You;ve managed to stay in the 96% majority. Should we discount crime because it hasn't happened to you? No? Then why should we discount armed self defense just because you are not involved in it?

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Just because people can die doing other things does not make it acceptable for innocent people to get killed by guns. Stop using that debate. Start acknowledging that it's a problem.

Murder is a problem. It's wrong that innocents, or anyone else is murdered (though you should remember that most murders are felon on felon).

Do you think it is more acceptable if someone is killed with something other than a gun? If not, focus on teh murder, not the gun.

If you do...

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Vallerina 2]

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There is a problem with crime in this country. I'll be the first to stand up and say so.

What do you think should be done about it then?

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Do you think those murders and crimes committed with firearms would simply not happen if firearms were made illegal?

Yes, some. Not all, of course.

Also, there are websites that will support anything. The whole "gun protecting me" thing has been debated before, and no, sorry, I don't buy that a gun will protect you due to my personal experiences with being able to stay safe in sketchy areas. Plus, if I'm asleep (usually on the couch) and someone breaks in, well, that's what I have insurance for and an alarm for. Getting the Hell out of there will keep me safer than waking up, running to get a gun, unlocking the location of the gun, etc etc.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Kennedy 0]

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What do you think should be done about it then?

Most of it is sociological stuff that is way over my head, but I've had a few ideas (some practical, some jsut strange ramblings).

First, I like the idea of combining prosecutions for violent and contact-crime felonies. (like Project exile, where certain gun crimes are prosecuted on the state and federal level)

I also like the idea of locking up vilent offenders for a very long time.

I'm also a fan of making prisons uncomfortable places. Let's make it clear that you really don't want to be there.

I wish there were a workable form or rehab for cons and ex-cons, but I don't know of one. Somethings work for some types of cons, but we need to be more discriminating on who we let in - do that and rehab success rates would rise.

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Then there is the whole culture that encourages crime. Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do about that other than not support it.

There is a disturbing book out recently, called White Liberals and Black Rednecks. It is sensationalized, and it goes over-the-top with its rhetoric, but it does make a very good point underneath all that.

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Then there is the lack of personal responsibility and the idea that "I am entitled to everyting" that needs to be corrected. Vast school and government-run social support reform would have to happen first, and lord knows they would fight that.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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Also, there are websites that will support anything. The whole "gun protecting me" thing has been debated before, and no, sorry, I don't buy that a gun will protect you due to my personal experiences with being able to stay safe in sketchy areas. Plus, if I'm asleep (usually on the couch) and someone breaks in, well, that's what I have insurance for and an alarm for. Getting the Hell out of there will keep me safer than waking up, running to get a gun, unlocking the location of the gun, etc etc.

I posted those webiste because they have text of scientific studies. Check them out before you discard them. They're not some random thoughts of an idiot with word processor. They are studies done at universities and/or with governmet funding. That doesn't automatically make them right, but it does make them at least worth considering, doesn't it?

I don't expect to change your views on personal safety, I just wanted to make two points:

(1) They are not the only valid views. I'm not trying to force my views of how to conduct self defense on you, I just don't want you to force yours on me without considering the bigger picture, or the harm they could create. Not everyone is in your position, afterall.

(2) Armed self defense does happen, and it is not a rare occurance.
(there are also studies out there using FBI information about the safest course of action during a crime, but we'll leave that for another day)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[sinker 0]

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I don't buy that a gun will protect you due to my personal experiences with being able to stay safe in sketchy areas. Plus, if I'm asleep (usually on the couch) and someone breaks in, well, that's what I have insurance for and an alarm for. Getting the Hell out of there will keep me safer than waking up, running to get a gun, unlocking the location of the gun

As Kennedy said before, just b/c you have thus far been able to stay safe in "sketchy" areas does nothing to negate the value of having a gun for personal protection. Maybe you've just been lucky. Maybe those areas weren't so "sketchy" after all. Maybe you just happened to fall into that 96% Kennedy was referring to. BUT just MAYBE, next time you're in a "sketchy" area, you won't be so lucky. Maybe you'll be mugged. raped. abducted. murdered. And it doens't only happen in "sketchy" areas. It is a very common phenomenon that after a woman is a victim of a violent crime, she buys a gun and learns to use it b/c she decided "I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM AGAIN!"

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Plus, if I'm asleep (usually on the couch) and someone breaks in, well, that's what I have insurance for and an alarm for. Getting the Hell out of there will keep me safer than waking up, running to get a gun, unlocking the location of the gun

Do you honestly think that if you're asleep on a couch (usually keep in the front room or living room, closer to the entrance to the abode) and someone breaks in that you'll be able to get up and run? Maybe, but maybe not. And if you keep your gun locked up and inaccessible, of course you won't be able to get to it in time. That's part of the problem w/ the whole "it's ok to have a gun in your home, just keep it locked up!" What the hell good is a gun for personal protection when it's LOCKED UP???

True, it should be kept out of reach of children. You know, my gun is only locked up when I'm not carrying it w/ me and I'm out of the house. If I'm home, it's out. And it's usually on my person. You may have house insurance, but I have gun insurance. I don't have to go unlock the safe, retrieve the gun, and hope the intruder hasn't closed the distance to me to prevent me from using it. And no body has the right to harm my family. As the husband and father of my family, it's my obligation to protect them in the best way possible.

And you better believe that my kids know the rules of guns. Guns have been demystified for them. They know what it can do to others. They don't fear them, they have a healthy respect for them.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,116]

>"I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM AGAIN!"

As I've said before, I think almost anyone should be able to own a gun.

But there is a very odd tack that gun proponents have taken about the whole 'victim' thing. Many of them feel that guns equal power. If you go to a place where guns are not allowed, you become a 'disarmed victim.' If you carry a gun, you will never be a victim again.

I've only had to defend myself once so far, from a mugging. Before I knew what was happening, the guy had his arm around my throat and had his hands in my back pocket (fortunately my wallet was in my front.) I managed to throw him. He got up and ran away. Had I been carrying a gun, the outcome could have been the same or worse; the situation might have ended up with either one of us dead.

Of course, I didn't have a gun, so I was no doubt a victim there.

Claiming that guns equal safety is like claiming that airbags equal safety, or that taking vitamin B12 means you will live to be 100 years old. Anyone who believes such things, IMO, is skipping over 99% of the picture. Carrying a gun is _one_ part of staying safe - in my opinion, a very small part. Properly used they will help you more often than they hurt you, but you can do far more to keep yourself safe by using your brain before you ever pick up a gun (or a knife, or a club.)

[sinker 0]

Claiming that guns equal safety is like claiming that airbags equal safety, or that taking vitamin B12 means you will live to be 100 years old. Anyone who believes such things, IMO, is skipping over 99% of the picture. Carrying a gun is _one_ part of staying safe - in my opinion, a very small part. Properly used they will help you more often than they hurt you, but you can do far more to keep yourself safe by using your brain before you ever pick up a gun (or a knife, or a club.) ***

no argument from me there... and most of the pro-gun literature I read says the same thing... having a gun is not the universal solvent. as you say, in the hands of someone properly trained, a gun can be a huge asset... one that can keep you from being killed... but they can hurt too, no question...

The statement I made about never being a victim again... it is really a slogan, a mantra, something to live by. of course it doesn't mean I won't ever be a victim again, but I for one am tired of crime and seeing innocent people hurt by criminals.

In my neighborhood we're involved in alot more than just "packing heat." Block watches, meeting new neighbors, making people feel welcome, keeping the hood clean, alarm systems, watching each others backs, reporting wreckless drivers on neighborhood streets, these just might do MORE To prevent crime in our neighborhood than people simply knowing that I'm always armed.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Gravitymaster 0]

I'm wondering how many of the "Gun Crimes" committed every year are one criminal shooting another? Like a drug deal gone bad or one gang killing another over a territorial dispute?

[sinker 0]

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I'm wondering how many of the "Gun Crimes" committed every year are one criminal shooting another? Like a drug deal gone bad or one gang killing another over a territorial dispute?

i don't have any stats in hand, but that I'm sure plays a BIG part in it... the same can be said for the number of kids that get kills by guns every year... the number is artificially inflated by including kids over 17 or 18 AND who are involved in gangs. The number of kids getting killed by guns is actually quite small... I'm sure Kennedy could rapidly find actually numbers for us AND where "Guns" factor in in terms of highest causes of death for kids...

BEFORE anyone flames me, let me catagorically say that ANY kid dying at the hands of a gun is a tragedy.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Ron 10]

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BEFORE anyone flames me, let me catagorically say that ANY kid dying at the hands of a gun is a tragedy.

But them dying by a knife, or club is OK?

I see no difference in the type of tool used.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[justinb138 0]

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BEFORE anyone flames me, let me catagorically say that ANY kid dying at the hands of a gun is a tragedy.

But them dying by a knife, or club is OK?

I see no difference in the type of tool used.

I think his point is similar to the last statement you made.