New Pope Elected

[Michele 1]

What I find interesting is the focus on the Pope and Roman Catholic church as misogynistic, when Orthodox Jews are far more oppressive to women (if one is using the same criteria to judge.).

Frankly, again, I don't see the mysogyny. But for a woman, Jesus would not have been born. But for a woman, we wouldn't have been born. The concept of the only person on the planet being born without original sin being a woman is fascinating, and definitely not mysogynistic whatsoever.

As the Roman Church has Christ represented during services, it is a man who must indeed play that role. Compare to orthodox Judaism, wherein Rabbis (teachers) are only men. Further that to the synagogue of orthodoxism, men and women are separate. Further that to during menses, women are not allowed to be touched (including with the eyes), and further that to a significant cleansing ritual once menses is complete prior to being "allowed" back into the normal issues. And that is simply one aspect of orthodox Judaism that demonstrates, to they who see it that way, a mysogyny inherent to that religious practice.

One could read all of that as mysogynistic, and badly so...and yet, for those who believe it, it is not. For those who find it too restrictive, or too separatist, or too something, there is the option to find a synagogue wherein they can worship according to how they want.

Same applied over to the Roman Church...for those who believe, it is fine. For those who find it too whatever, there are many many other churches that would welcome them with open arms...

There is a quality to those people who demand a specific church worship the individual's way that is bothersome. Buddhism doesn't fit me; and you know what? You don't find me fighting to change Buddhism. Same with all other religions.

I can choose where I go; I can choose how I worship. If one church doesn't do it "my" way, fine...I'll find another which does. No big deal. It really isn't. But you won't find me railing against a Buddhist temple insisting they allow women to serve as priests, because it's not in their scripture and structure to do so...

There is a base arrogance when one demands that an institution change it's fundamental beliefs to suit them. Who am I to insist that my way is best for everyone? Who am I to insist that something is occuring against my opinion and it should not be happening? Who am I to demand that something be changed because I said so??? That arrogance is based in a selfish, egocentral thought process which, once considered with an open mind, brings a clarity to the situation that hadn't been present before...but only with the intellectual honesty which is demanded by self-reflection and sincere desire to understand self and our relationship within the world.

Freedom of choice; free will doctrine. Same thing...and one which should be exercised with intention. If a shoe doesn't fit, wear another pair...if the doctrine of one church doesn't fit your personal style, then find another - or don't go to a church.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[sinker 0]

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It is remarkably patronizing the way the Roman Catholic males here are telling us how the Roman church, run exclusively by misogynist men, does NOT treat women as second class humans.

you're such a broken record. it's quite boring, really. move along, nothing new to see here...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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It is remarkably patronizing the way the Roman Catholic males here are telling us how the Roman church, run exclusively by misogynist men, does NOT treat women as second class humans.

Why do you care, professor? No one forces anyone to join a church.

[sinker 0]

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It's not the job of the church to be "up-to-date."

Then it shouldn't get involved in contemporary matters?
By taking stances on contemporary temporal matters, it naturaly invites to criticism, good or bad. Whether it likes it or not, the church is playing a role in today's social matters.
BTW: The statement on the status of Turkey vis a vis the EU had no business being made.

I don't know what the Turkey comment means...

Yes, the Church should be involved in contemporary matters, b/c Her members live in the contemporary period. And contemporary mores, customs, beliefs, (or ghastly lack thereof) have an inpact on Her members. The Church NEEDS to stand in and emphatically denounce those things that violate the laws of God and do harm to the human person, such as abortion, etc. To fail to do so would be negligence in the worst form. There are basic, fundamental truths that transcend time, place, ethnicity, culture and those truths are what the Church stands for. And the Church will NOT stop proclaiming those truths, much to the annoyance of those who hate her. Like I said to Kallend, She'll be around long after her detractors are gone... for that I'm very grateful.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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It is remarkably patronizing the way the Roman Catholic males here are telling us how the Roman church, run exclusively by misogynist men, does NOT treat women as second class humans.

Why do you care, professor? No one forces anyone to join a church.

Yeah, John, I'd really REALLY like you to answer this question. Why do you care so much about this, that you'll continually through insults, untruths, and bigoted remarks at the Church and her members?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

first off, girl, you said it. excellent post.

second, you WON'T hear that level of "jew-bashing" b/c for one, Catholicism IS the last really acceptable predjudice and two, Jewish people have done well to stand up for themselves and not allow people like Kallend et al to f*ck with them.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Frenchy68 0]

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I don't know what the Turkey comment means...

Muslim Turkey should not be able to join Christian Europe.

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The Church NEEDS to stand in and emphatically denounce those things that violate the laws of God and do harm to the human person

Start with sexual abuse within the church. The Vatican and other local Catholic authorities shamefully tried to sweep it under the rug. Once again, I have no issue whatsoever with the Catholic faith and its followers. I have an issue with the head of the church and its stance on certain matters. Definitely not aimed at your and other people's faith.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[billvon 3,131]

>And by the way, Catholic's don't WORSHIP Mary.

Catholics pray to her. There are statues of her in nearly every church. I am sure that when you pray you often use a prayer written about her, which includes the lines

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

If you would like to define that as something else, say "veneration" instead of "worship" that's fine. They mean about the same thing.

>I don't get why this is so hard to understand, Bill.

Oh, I understand your point of view, I just disagree with it.

>Bill, have you read anything of the Catechism? Or the document "Mulieris
> Dignitatem" ("On the Dignity and Vocation of Women") by JPII? Or Paul
> Quay's "The Christian Meaning of Human Sexuality?"

Read the Chatechism and the first document you listed. Haven't read anything by Quay though.

>he is not trying to disallow anyone the "choice" to believe whatever
>they want to believe. what he is saying is that Catholicism is NOT like
>a cafeteria, where someone can come in and pick and choose what
>they wish to believe in and still call themselves "a good Catholic."

I agree there. It's more like a restaraunt where the menu changes every so often. Vatican II changed a lot of things, for example. If we were having this argument 50 years ago, you would be as upset as you are now if I suggested the Mass should be said in the local language. "The Church is not something that should be dumbed down to be popular! Mass has always been in Latin!"

From a piece by The Catholic Students of the Second Vatican Council:

"But in modern times -- above all in the middle of the twentieth Century -- the whole tempo and movement of secular history has increased in every sphere of life, and with the greatest rapidity. The Church is new as well as old. If it is to remain up to date and in touch with the urgent needs of modern life, then the Church, too, must undergo change. Clearly, changes and adaptations must be accomplished with great prudence. Clearly, too, great courage is needed, if the ancient and unchanging truths and ways of life and worship are to take on new forms."

>And it makes no damn sense for someone to try to change a religion
> that has made it VERY CLEAR that on fundamentals of faith, morals,
> doctrine, there will be NO change, no refutation, no going back and
> saying, oops, sorry, we were wrong about that whole abortion thing.

Except, apparently, Vatican II. There WILL be a Vatican III, and many of the precepts you hold dear now may change (again.) Will you then leave the church?

>So, go find another church!

That's funny in a thread in which you said we should all aspire to the ideals that Christ set forth.

[billvon 3,131]

>You are not doing a very good job of that by trying to make them change.

I'm not trying to make anyone change. They are free to believe whatever they so choose. Indeed, so far only Chris and Michael have expressed a desire that anyone be kicked out of a religion (apparently me.)

[sinker 0]

Start with sexual abuse within the church. The Vatican and other local Catholic authorities shamefully tried to sweep it under the rug. Once again, I have no issue whatsoever with the Catholic faith and its followers. I have an issue with the head of the church and its stance on certain matters. Definitely not aimed at your and other people's faith.
***

agreed, 100%... the sex abuse scandal was so utterly shameful and poorly handled that I just want to scream. and as a result, the reputation of the WHOLE Catholic Church, not just those members of the hierarchy and the pedophiliac priests, haas suffered tremendously. Now, my priest friends tell me that it's hard to walk around in public w/ a roman collar on, b/c of all the persecution they get. some have been physically assaulted. most just suffer verbal insults, but still. And it's the Church's own fault. It is going to take decades or even centuries to heal the hurt.

what's the deal w/ not wanting Turkey to join the EU? Is that something Ratzinger said?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Frenchy68 0]

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what's the deal w/ not wanting Turkey to join the EU? Is that something Ratzinger said?

Indeed.
If the EU was a religious organization, I would understand. But it's not.

Edited to add link

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[sinker 0]

If you would like to define that as something else, say "veneration" instead of "worship" that's fine. They mean about the same thing.

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No, they don't. Please research the definitions of latria, dulia, and hyperdulia. You are stating something that is pattenly untrue.

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I agree there. It's more like a restaraunt where the menu changes every so often. Vatican II changed a lot of things, for example. If we were having this argument 50 years ago, you would be as upset as you are now if I suggested the Mass should be said in the local language. "The Church is not something that should be dumbed down to be popular! Mass has always been in Latin!" ***

Having the Mass in Latin as opposed to the vernacular is not a matter of faith and morals, which are what is unchangeable. It doesn't matter what the language is in, it's still Mass. I personally feel that the Latin Mass is a more poetic and beautiful way to say it, but it is not "dumbed down" simply by putting it in English, or Spanish, or Italian, etc. That change (that occurred in VII) did alot of good for a lot of people. Again, though, that is a matter of administration, which is entirely open to change. Yet another falsely held myth, Bill

Except, apparently, Vatican II. There WILL be a Vatican III, and many of the precepts you hold dear now may change (again.) Will you then leave the church?

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You, like Kallend, are starting to sound like a broken record. Vatican II did NOT change ANYTHING regarding faith and morals. If you read the documents, you'd know that. I have read them and they are sitting on my desk as a reference right now. Yes, it is appropriate for the church to "adapt" to the modern world in ways that allow the church to communicate it's message, to be able to relate to it's people. The vessels of communication may change, i.e. modes of communication, language, etc, but the MESSAGE is the same. That is what that quote is referring to that you cited. In matters of faith and morals there has BEEN NO CHANGE.

When there is a VIII, I will rejoice at what comes from it, b/c I firmly believe that the Catholic Church is led by the Holy Spirit. I can, with full assurance, say there will BE NO CHANGE on matters of faith and morals from VIII, based on the fact that there has been NO CHANGE on such matters at every previous council... VI, ephasus (sp?), trent, etc.

That's not to say that our understanding of doctrine doesn't mature. However, it's very easy to see how that is not a change, but a further clarification, a greater focusing. That certainly HAS occurred, but if you look at that, it's organic growth, not contradiction, as if to say that abortion is wrong NOW b/c life begins at conception and later it's NOT wrong b/c life begins at birth.

That's funny in a thread in which you said we should all aspire to the ideals that Christ set forth. ***

Quit trying to accuse me of hypocrisy. I firmly believe that we should all aspire to the ideals that Christ set forth. However, if YOU DON'T WANT TO, do it SOMEWHERE ELSE, not in the Church that I love so dearly. Is that more clear, Bill? It's so tiring to have people like you try and twist my words.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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>You are not doing a very good job of that by trying to make them change.

I'm not trying to make anyone change. They are free to believe whatever they so choose. Indeed, so far only Chris and Michael have expressed a desire that anyone be kicked out of a religion (apparently me.)

Twisting words, Bill, that's all you're doing. I don't desire that anyone leave the Church but instead, quit w/ the arrogance of believing that a man w/ your 30 or 40 years of experience on this earth have more collective wisdom and knowledge than the adherants of an institution that has been around for 2000 years and has survived every attempt at making it fall or "bend to the spirit of the age." I'd much rather you suspend your critical, judgemental, bigotted attitude about the Church and try to really understand her position.

I'd really rather you be reconciled to the religion and God of your youth, but maybe you don't consider that a possibility.

If you don't want to, fine... then, leave. B/c She's not going to change for you, kallend or any other.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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what's the deal w/ not wanting Turkey to join the EU? Is that something Ratzinger said?

Indeed.
If the EU was a religious organization, I would understand. But it's not.

Edited to add link

thanks for the link... interesting read... can't say I know much about the EU and all that, but I do wonder why Turkey, a country NOT physically located in Europe wants to join the EU? Are there other Non-European countries in the EU?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,131]

>However, it's very easy to see how that is not a change, but a
>further clarification, a greater focusing.

No problem there. I suspect one such "focusing" will be the realization that women can be priests.

>However, if YOU DON'T WANT TO, do it SOMEWHERE ELSE, not in the
> Church that I love so dearly. Is that more clear, Bill?

Yep. Ah well. You will always be welcome in my church even if I am not welcome in yours.

[sinker 0]

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>However, it's very easy to see how that is not a change, but a
>further clarification, a greater focusing.

No problem there. I suspect one such "focusing" will be the realization that women can be priests.

>>sorry bill, not a chance. you can keep dreaming if you want, no harm there... and if some "church" claiming to be catholic did that, they wouldn't be THE Catholic Church.

>However, if YOU DON'T WANT TO, do it SOMEWHERE ELSE, not in the
> Church that I love so dearly. Is that more clear, Bill?

Yep. Ah well. You will always be welcome in my church even if I am not welcome in yours.

you sound pretty patronizing to me, bill, but again you are misunderstanding me. everyone is welcome in the catholic church. I never said you WEREN'T welcome, just don't come and visit our house, hoping to rearrange the furniture. it won't do.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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but I do wonder why Turkey, a country NOT physically located in Europe wants to join the EU?

Part of Turkey is in Europe, granted only a small part, but still a part is in Europe.

[christelsabine 1]

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but I do wonder why Turkey, a country NOT physically located in Europe wants to join the EU?

Part of Turkey is in Europe, granted only a small part, but still a part is in Europe.

Yep, it's only a very small percentage of total Turkey beeing European... But there still is more than a world between Europe and Turkey.

Why the want to join the EU? Subventions.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 2,175]

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What I find interesting is the focus on the Pope and Roman Catholic church as misogynistic, when Orthodox Jews are far more oppressive to women (if one is using the same criteria to judge.).

Umm. Michele, the College of Cardinals just elected a new pope. It was in all the papers and all the news shows. Look at the title of this thread.

I expect a thorough discussion of the faults of orthodox Judaism (which are many) at a pertinent time. Right now it's the pope's turn.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,175]

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It is remarkably patronizing the way the Roman Catholic males here are telling us how the Roman church, run exclusively by misogynist men, does NOT treat women as second class humans.

Why do you care, professor? No one forces anyone to join a church.

Yeah, John, I'd really REALLY like you to answer this question. Why do you care so much about this, that you'll continually through insults, untruths, and bigoted remarks at the Church and her members?

What exactly have I said that is untrue? Can a woman become pope, cardinal, or even parish priest? Did the Inquisition not torture and kill thousands? Please enlighten us.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,175]

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It is remarkably patronizing the way the Roman Catholic males here are telling us how the Roman church, run exclusively by misogynist men, does NOT treat women as second class humans.

Why do you care, professor? No one forces anyone to join a church.

If the Roman church confined itself to its own internal affairs and those of its members I wouldn't care at all. Unfortunately, it meddles in politics, and that means in MY affairs and those of my family. Therefore, I have an interest.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

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Please enlighten us.

I thought you already WERE enlightened, Professor.

Again, the Church will be here, "meddling," long after you're gone... how old are you again?

Can you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count). I don't give a damn if you have an "interest," I just don't like how angry and hateful you seem to be about it. Yeah, I know, I'm now guilty of resorting to sarcasm and all that, I just figured I'd speak at your level...

Stay angry, John, stay angry. It's REALLY good for your health, spiritually and physically.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

I expect a thorough discussion of the faults of orthodox Judaism (which are many) at a pertinent time***

More self-congratulatory triumphalism coming from the Professor. You're so much better than everyone else, John. I'm sorry I've failed to see it all this time. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Frenchy68 0]

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thanks for the link... interesting read... can't say I know much about the EU and all that, but I do wonder why Turkey, a country NOT physically located in Europe wants to join the EU? Are there other Non-European countries in the EU?

Actually, Northern Turkey (Istanbul) lies in Europe. And the city of Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) has a pretty strong Christian background. Although it is a Muslim country it is a totally seculiar regime, much closer to Western European regimes than Middle Eastern ones.
Also, it is hard to picture the Trojans as being different from the Atheans, isn't it.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[sinker 0]

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thanks for the link... interesting read... can't say I know much about the EU and all that, but I do wonder why Turkey, a country NOT physically located in Europe wants to join the EU? Are there other Non-European countries in the EU?

Actually, Northern Turkey (Istanbul) lies in Europe. And the city of Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) has a pretty strong Christian background. Although it is a Muslim country it is a totally seculiar regime, much closer to Western European regimes than Middle Eastern ones.
Also, it is hard to picture the Trojans as being different from the Atheans, isn't it.

Thanks for the correction... I'm interested in learning more about this.

-the artist formerly known as sinker