New Pope Elected

[sinker 0]

And thus a woman, by your own argument, is incapable of being Christ-like enough to be a priest. The church considers them incapable. That's not really debatable.

***

Again, you're misunderstanding. Considering your leftist bent, I'm not surprised. We are ALL called to be Christ-like. The most Christ-like person I ever met was Mother Theresa. Men, in a special way, can represent Christ in the ministerial capacity as a priest that women can't. Again, it's analogous to men throwing a hissy fit at God for not being able to conceive and bear children! Dammit God, you're a freaking sexist b/c you created me w/o a uterus!! It's just absurd! But in our modern society, with sex and gender roles being as confused and screwed up as they are, it's no wonder that so few in the US understand the Church on this.

The priest is called to be, above all, the SERVANT of the people of God. He is to lead by being the servant. All too often however, priests have lorded their perceived "power" over others. That's abhorant.

Jesus was male. The apostles He chose were male--all of them. Thus, priests are males. It's the whole apolstolic succession thing... since God came as man AS A MAN, do you mean to accuse God of being sexist? well, that's assuming you believe that Jesus is God and that's another conversation for "enlightened" former Catholics...

Underneath what you consider to be a sexist/misogynistic practice, what the Church actually teaches about women is that they are the "crown jewel of creation." Man was made out of dirt. The lowest of matter. Woman was made out of material from another rational being! And woman was made LAST!! God saved the best for last!! Fundamentally that is what the Church believes about women. Men as priests teach us something about God. Women teach us, men and women, what it is to be created, to be receptive, to be loved and put on a pedestal. It's just too bad the church does such a bad job at vocalizing this.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Muenkel 0]

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When Mary was described later, in the New Testament, she was described as conceiving an immaculate conception. This stood her apart from the pagan goddesses who created life through sex; by describing her as inseminated from God himself, they neatly avoided the problem of a comparison to a pagan goddess.

You may have read quite a bit, but you missed the part about the 'Immaculate Conception'. The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the conception of Jesus Christ but rather the teaching that Mary herself was conceived without original sin.
The Immaculate Conception was never mentioned in the New Testament but adopted as Doctrine of the Church many centuries later.

To those of you who claim to be Catholic, but do not believe in the full doctrine of the Catholic Church; you should know that that is called heresy, in which the result is excommunication. Receiving any of the Sacraments of the Church under these circumstances is considered gravely sinful. As was mentioned in a previous post, there are thousands of religions to choose from...most likely one that would match your set of beliefs.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[SpeedRacer 1]

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When Mary was described later, in the New Testament, she was described as conceiving an immaculate conception. This stood her apart from the pagan goddesses who created life through sex; by describing her as inseminated from God himself, they neatly avoided the problem of a comparison to a pagan goddess.

a common misconception about Catholicism.
This mistaken belief stems from the idea that Catholics are supposed to think sex is "dirty", and therefore, the conception of Jesus within Mary's womb is therefore "immaculate" because it came about without sexual intercourse from a man.

The whole problem with this is that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary, not the conception of Jesus. Mary's conception DID happen in the usual way, ie, through the sexual intercourse of her mother and father. What makes it immaculate according to the Church is that she was conceived without original sin.

The sex bit had no bearing.

Speed Racer
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[Tonto 1]

I think that women should have been created from the femur, not the rib. Take a look at the incidents forum. We seem very willing to sacrifice a femur for a quick thrill.

Seriously, I find your repeated attempts to justify the subjugation of women laughable.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[kallend 2,175]

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***

To those of you who claim to be Catholic, but do not believe in the full doctrine of the Catholic Church; you should know that that is called heresy, in which the result is excommunication. Receiving any of the Sacraments of the Church under these circumstances is considered gravely sinful.

A definite improvement over the rack and the stake. Yes, Billvon is right as usual, the Roman church is improving.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,175]

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When Mary was described later, in the New Testament, she was described as conceiving an immaculate conception. This stood her apart from the pagan goddesses who created life through sex; by describing her as inseminated from God himself, they neatly avoided the problem of a comparison to a pagan goddess.

a common misconception about Catholicism.
This mistaken belief stems from the idea that Catholics are supposed to think sex is "dirty", and therefore, the conception of Jesus within Mary's womb is therefore "immaculate" because it came about without sexual intercourse from a man.

The whole problem with this is that the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary, not the conception of Jesus. Mary's conception DID happen in the usual way, ie, through the sexual intercourse of her mother and father. What makes it immaculate according to the Church is that she was conceived without original sin.

The sex bit had no bearing.

I really find it hard to imagine that anyone actually believes this rubbish.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,175]

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I think that women should have been created from the femur, not the rib. Take a look at the incidents forum. We seem very willing to sacrifice a femur for a quick thrill.

Seriously, I find your repeated attempts to justify the subjugation of women laughable.

t

Give them another 1,500 years or so and they'll probably get over it, with an apology following 500 years later (maybe).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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The "ramifications and implications" are just the opinions of a very small, misogynistic, geriatric, self-perpetuating oligarchy, most of whose members are totally out of touch with reality.

It's interesting how such similar comparisons are constantly made about organized religion, political leadership (any party), and acedemia. I've heard the above comment more about acedemia than any other group, but organized religion is a close second.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sinker 0]

I really find it hard to imagine that anyone actually believes this rubbish.
***

And I find it hard to imagine that people like you can be so insensitive to the beliefs of others. Thanks for calling our beliefs rubbish. I'll keep praying for you... you obviously need it.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Muenkel 0]

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I really find it hard to imagine that anyone actually believes this rubbish.

It's called faith Kallend.

Chris

[sinker 0]

Seriously, I find your repeated attempts to justify the subjugation of women laughable. ***

glad to provide you w/ some entertainment. you're not the first to fail to try and understand the Catholic perspective on this. All you can jump to is accusations of subjugation. Your understanding of the Catholic mentality is shallow at best.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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I really find it hard to imagine that anyone actually believes this rubbish.

It's called faith Kallend.

Chris

oh chris, I think he is too enlightened to be bothered with issues so puerile as faith. [sarcasm off]

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Kris 0]

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glad to provide you w/ some entertainment. you're not the first to fail to try and understand the Catholic perspective on this. All you can jump to is accusations of subjugation. Your understanding of the Catholic mentality is shallow at best.

I have to agree with Tonto on this one. As for my understanding, I was raised Catholic and attended mass twice a week until I was 18. The church is hideously outdated in its stance on the role of women in the faith, among other things.

It's not just "non-Catholics" that feel that way, as I've had discussions with a friend of my father's, who happens to be a priest, on this. He thinks that women should be allowed to be priests as well.

This, among other things, is why I've pretty much severed all ties to the church as my belief structure was changed by what I was exposed to.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Kris 0]

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oh chris, I think he is too enlightened to be bothered with issues so puerile as faith. [sarcasm off]

What's that saying....? Oh, yes, it goes something like "Judge not, lest ye' be judged."

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[sinker 0]

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oh chris, I think he is too enlightened to be bothered with issues so puerile as faith. [sarcasm off]

What's that saying....? Oh, yes, it goes something like "Judge not, lest ye' be judged."

oh, so it's ok for him to say insulting, insenstive things, but I can't be sarcastic? ok, use the tenents of my faith, which you admit to not believing in, and beat me w/ them. nice.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,131]

>Men, in a special way, can represent Christ in the ministerial capacity as
>a priest that women can't.

You keep saying "the church considers women to be incapable of representing Christ" then saying "the church doesn't consider women to be incapable." Either they are or they aren't.

>Jesus was male. The apostles He chose were male--all of them. Thus,
> priests are males.

His mother was female. She is worshipped as much as, if not more than, many of his disciples. Compare the number of references to the Virgin Mary and Thaddeus in the current church.

>since God came as man AS A MAN, do you mean to accuse God of being
>sexist?

If he had to send his progeny, even if he rolled the dice that's a 50/50 chance. So no, I don't think god is sexist. Now, the people who interpret his word may well be sexist, but that's a different story.


>Woman was made out of material from another rational being! And
>woman was made LAST!! God saved the best for last!! . . . It's just
>too bad the church does such a bad job at vocalizing this.

They sorta can't; it goes contrary to the Bible. The bible tells us that woman was created as a helper for man, and is the original temptation that had us kicked out of the garden of Eden. Thus she was commanded to always be subservient to men, and to suffer in childbirth.

Genesis 2:20-22
So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

Genesis 3
And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate."

And the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

To the woman He said:
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."

[sinker 0]

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glad to provide you w/ some entertainment. you're not the first to fail to try and understand the Catholic perspective on this. All you can jump to is accusations of subjugation. Your understanding of the Catholic mentality is shallow at best.

I have to agree with Tonto on this one. As for my understanding, I was raised Catholic and attended mass twice a week until I was 18. The church is hideously outdated in its stance on the role of women in the faith, among other things.

It's not just "non-Catholics" that feel that way, as I've had discussions with a friend of my father's, who happens to be a priest, on this. He thinks that women should be allowed to be priests as well.

This, among other things, is why I've pretty much severed all ties to the church as my belief structure was changed by what I was exposed to.

It's not the job of the church to be "up-to-date." They never claimed to be nor tried to be. They are putting forth what they believe to be timeless, unchangeable, immutable truths. If you don't believe it, fine, but I'm tired of people being so damn insulting about it. If you don't like it or agree w/ it, fine, state it and move on. But don't call my faith and the faith of 1.1 billion rubbish. Want to be a woman priest? Fine... join a frickin church that will let you. Quit trying to change a church wherein MOST of the faithful don't WANT it's rules to change. (And if you think that simply b/c some loud-mouthed leftists in the US and other parts of the Western World want women priests or acceptance of birth control or abortion consitutes a significant majority, you're sadly mistaken and quite delusional)

Going back to the point, trying to wed the tenents of a faith to the fads and shifting ideologies of the times is one of the worst things that can happen. That's one reason why there are so many different Christian denominations now, over 26,000 at last count.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,131]

>The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the conception of
>Jesus Christ but rather the teaching that Mary herself was conceived
>without original sin.

That definition did not surface until 1854, when Pius IX declared it to be so. Thus it was not part of the original rationale for the formation of the Catholic faith.

>The Immaculate Conception was never mentioned in the New Testament
>but adopted as Doctrine of the Church many centuries later.

I studied the bible for four years in high school. It comes in handy when I get evangelists who misquote it.

Luke 1:34-38
--------------------------
Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible."

Then Mary said, "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
---------------------------

>To those of you who claim to be Catholic, but do not believe in the full
> doctrine of the Catholic Church; you should know that that is called
> heresy, in which the result is excommunication.

Chris, I think you should believe whatever you choose, and allow others to believe whatever they choose. If it brings you peace and fulfillment, that's the important part. If it incites in you feelings of anger and a desire to exclude others, it's not doing a very good job by you.

[sinker 0]

You keep saying "the church considers women to be incapable of representing Christ" then saying "the church doesn't consider women to be incapable." Either they are or they aren't. ***

I don't know if you're purposely being dense for the sake of arguing or if you just aren't reading what I'm saying. I never said the church considers women to be incapable of representing Christ. I said that women are incapable of representing Christ AS A PRIEST. That's a significant piece you left out. The gender of a woman, and the symbolism contained therein, is as a receiver, as someone who is inherently receptive to receiving life. That is why "woman" is the symbol of the Church. That is why the church is called "she." It says something profound about God's relationship (as Father) to His people as well as about Christ to his BRIDE - feminine. In that way, we are all, men and women, at some fundamental level, feminine in that we can only RECEIVE the life that God the Father gives us. (Still think Catholicism is misogynistic?)

Having a man stand in the place of Christ as a priest provides consistent symbolism of what it means to be a Father and a Groom, someone who reaches out to another, someone who infuses life into another. Having a woman in that role confuses the symbolism. That doesn't mean they are any less than man. In fact, in their role as receivers, as life bearers, women are more adequate, are more capable, are better at doing what they do in the liturgy and other functions in the Church than men. Human men, even though it is symbolically proper for them to represent God/Christ in the priest, in their humanity they are GROSSLY inadequate to really do the job of priest justice.

And by the way, Catholic's don't WORSHIP Mary.
She is venerated as the First Christian, as the highest Christian, as the person who best demonstrates what it means to receive the message of Christ and live it out. Mary is the quintessential (sp?) symbol for the church... and this just further demonstrates why men are priests and women aren't... see the symbolism spoken of above.

And it wasn't a "crap shoot" with regards to Jesus coming as a male. God doesn't "role the dice" that way. How absurd. Having Jesus come as a man, incarnate THROUGH a WOMAN makes perfect sense! That is why Mary symbolizes the Church, who RECEIVES Christ through grace and the sacraments. And that is why the Church is led by a man, the Pope, the Father, and, in individual parishes, by men, priests, who represent the life-giving love of God the Father. I don't get why this is so hard to understand, Bill. In effect, we are all called to be more feminine, like Mary, docile and responsive to be able to respond to the call of the Father. This is true even for priests who must also represent Christ the Bridegroom and God the Father.

Bill, have you read anything of the Catechism? Or the document "Mulieris Dignitatem" ("On the Dignity and Vocation of Women") by JPII? Or Paul Quay's "The Christian Meaning of Human Sexuality?"

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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>The Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with the conception of
>Jesus Christ but rather the teaching that Mary herself was conceived
>without original sin.

That definition did not surface until 1854, when Pius IX declared it to be so. Thus it was not part of the original rationale for the formation of the Catholic faith.

It was proclaimed as dogma in 1854, which is a definitive pronunciation and definition of belief that already existed. The ex cathedra pronunciation of the Immaculate Conception wasn't something new that the Church invented. References to Mary being conceived w/o sin can be found in many places in the history of the Church, going way way back...

>The Immaculate Conception was never mentioned in the New Testament
>but adopted as Doctrine of the Church many centuries later.

I studied the bible for four years in high school. It comes in handy when I get evangelists who misquote it.

it's you, bill, who is doing the misquoting. your reference below does not speak to the immaculate conception, but the virginity of mary. they are two different things.

Luke 1:34-38
--------------------------
Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible."

Then Mary said, "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
---------------------------

>To those of you who claim to be Catholic, but do not believe in the full
> doctrine of the Catholic Church; you should know that that is called
> heresy, in which the result is excommunication.

Chris, I think you should believe whatever you choose, and allow others to believe whatever they choose. If it brings you peace and fulfillment, that's the important part. If it incites in you feelings of anger and a desire to exclude others, it's not doing a very good job by you.

he is not trying to disallow anyone the "choice" to believe whatever they want to believe. what he is saying is that Catholicism is NOT like a cafeteria, where someone can come in and pick and choose what they wish to believe in and still call themselves "a good Catholic." That is, by definition, a BAD Catholic. And it makes no damn sense for someone to try to change a religion that has made it VERY CLEAR that on fundamentals of faith, morals, doctrine, there will be NO change, no refutation, no going back and saying, oops, sorry, we were wrong about that whole abortion thing. So, go find another church!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Muenkel 0]

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His mother was female. She is worshipped as much as, if not more than, many of his disciples. Compare the number of references to the Virgin Mary and Thaddeus in the current church.

You used the wrong word there. We as Catholics do not 'worship' Mary or any of the saints. We only worship God. We honor Mary and hold Her in the highest esteem.

Speaking of women's role in the Catholic Church: State the gender of the one human being that was born of a mortal man and woman that is in the highest place of honor in the Catholic Church. It is also the one and only person who is the mediatrix of all Grace.

This IS the Catholic faith. Any priest, bishop, catholic lay person who says otherwise is speaking heresy. They, by their own actions have excommunicated themselves from the Catholic Church.

Now, a question to the non-Catholics: Why do you care? What voice is it that is inside you that compels you to discredit or mock some religion you do not belong to?

This whole thread reminds me of a scene from 'The Passion of the Christ'. As Christ was carrying his cross and being tortured, there were hoardes of people cheering this on and taking joy in it while there were only a handful of people who were in agony watching this happen.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Muenkel 0]

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Chris, I think you should believe whatever you choose, and allow others to believe whatever they choose. If it brings you peace and fulfillment, that's the important part. If it incites in you feelings of anger and a desire to exclude others, it's not doing a very good job by you.

I was going to reply to this, but I see that Sinker already made my point perfectly. Thanks sinker.
Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Ron 10]

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Chris, I think you should believe whatever you choose, and allow others to believe whatever they choose. If it brings you peace and fulfillment, that's the important part.

You are not doing a very good job of that by trying to make them change.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,175]

It is remarkably patronizing the way the Roman Catholic males here are telling us how the Roman church, run exclusively by misogynist men, does NOT treat women as second class humans.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Frenchy68 0]

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It's not the job of the church to be "up-to-date."

Then it shouldn't get involved in contemporary matters?
By taking stances on contemporary temporal matters, it naturaly invites to criticism, good or bad. Whether it likes it or not, the church is playing a role in today's social matters.
BTW: The statement on the status of Turkey vis a vis the EU had no business being made.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."