New Pope Elected

[rehmwa 2]

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Bill,

I have no issue with any religion that restricts itself to the moral guidance of its own members.
I have serious issues with religions and organizations and political parties - DNC and RNC do it - and individuals that attempt through legislation to impose their own version of morality on the rest of us.
Most agree that we have to remember the holocaust to ensure that something like it doesn't happen again.
Roman Catholics need to remember the Inquisition for the same reason, whenever they feel the urge to tell the rest of us how to behave.

John - I have no issue with the content of your discussions in terms of debate - I'm fully on board with the top two items you list. the last two are interesting for discussion, but no substitute for individuals being good people by whatever means (be it learning from the past as you state or being raised well or whatever).

It's the callousness of the presentation by several on this string is the only thing I've called out - the vitriol is thick. I've been very clear that I consider tolerance of another's beliefs is certainly at best a smorgasboard approach for 100% of the human race despite what each professes in public. This entire post is clear example of that. My only surprise is that the hypocracy of that is lost on so many in this thread and so clear on others.

Since this is a subjective point, therefore, one which you ignore in lieu of responding with another non sequitor, I do not expect you to acknowledge this nor respond to the specifics of this comment. Nor do I ask you to - I understand your position and respect the content, just not the tone of delivery.

{BTW - Normally I care about content and little about delivery, I consider people way too thin skinned for their own good, so me reacting to it is pretty out of the ordinary - it's the only reason I continue here}

Aside - All people need to remember their shortcomings whenever they feel the urge to tell (teach) the rest of us how to behave. I don't much care about "organizations" - as long as individuals can remember that, the organization will come in line. But it doesn't work the other way around - you can't fix organizations and change their members, that's why this crusade to make groups apologize for things is futile and petty. It's about human nature and do you come from a perspective that people are individuals by choice or just part of the mob (social collective) - that delivers much in terms of a person's choices in politics, morals, etc. It's very interesting.

enough digression

save the pigeons!!

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[gjhdiver 0]

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Ahhh...so you are not going to answer my question. Didn't think you were the sort to be scared off by an analogy. Just thought I'd check back in and see.

What are you talknig about now ?

Can't work it out from the thread. Having met John a number of times, I can't see him being scared of anything. Us Brits are like that, bloody minded.

I more or less stayed out of this thread, as it's well know that I find all religions, espcially Catholicism, laughable.

[TheAnvil 0]

Surprised you've stayed out the thread, Gareth.

Still waiting on an answer, my dearest Kallend. Please, don't worry yourself. I'm not holding my breath anxiously or anything.

Interesting thread that's developed. Sinker is really kicking ass.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[sinker 0]

I find all religions, espcially Catholicism, laughable.
***

I'm most happy that we Catholics offer such entertainment value With 1.1 billion of us worldwide, you best be careful not to bust your diaphram (sp) from laughing so much.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rehmwa 2]

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I find all religions, espcially Catholicism, laughable.

There's a difference between:
faith (beliefs),
religion (exercising or celbrating a belief), and
church (an organization intended to assist (or dominate) those in the religion associated with their faith - which is composed of leaders that as individuals may or may not become corrupt or, conversely, become better people through service, either of which is always difficult to predict).

I suspect most people that have conflict, have a hard time - or laughable time - with "organized church structures" and it's potential to be twisted (much like our political parties of today) and some issue with religion as it give appearance towards a tendency of ritual and superstition and little issue with someone's faith.

But that's just my opinion

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sinker 0]

what question did you ask him?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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Ahhh...so you are not going to answer my question. Didn't think you were the sort to be scared off by an analogy. Just thought I'd check back in and see.

It's a meaningless question. If you want to do something actually useful get the Confederate States to apologize, and stop flying their treasonous flag.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

It's a meaningless question. If you want to do something actually useful get the Confederate States to apologize, and stop flying their treasonous flag.***

Should I stop flying the flag of the Vatican b/c of the Inquisition? Wait... did I just ask that? What a dumb question to ask Kallend! Gotta learn to disconnect the brain-keyboard interface...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[TheAnvil 0]

Given the nature of the question you are dodging, one would have thought you'd not bring up the Confederacy...

I see you're continuing to dodge. You obviously have a reason for doing so - do you mind telling us what it is?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,175]

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Given the nature of the question you are dodging, one would have thought you'd not bring up the Confederacy...

I see you're continuing to dodge. You obviously have a reason for doing so - do you mind telling us what it is?

I didn't dodge, you just have bad aim.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

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I didn't dodge, you just have bad aim.

but kallend, it doesn't help that you are so damn thin. eat some food first dammit!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[TheAnvil 0]

Hmmm...I ask a question...you refuse to answer...sounds like a dodge to me. I see that you're neither going to answer nor give a reason why, and am therefore left to myself to discern what your answer would be.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[pajarito 0]

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what question did you ask him?

I'm with you. What was the question? Must have been a good one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Check out my posts on pages 4 through six of this thread. Kallend dodges every query because he doesn't like any of the answers. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. I think the greater than less than bit might have perturbed him a little.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[gjhdiver 0]

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I find all religions, espcially Catholicism, laughable.
***

I'm most happy that we Catholics offer such entertainment value With 1.1 billion of us worldwide, you best be careful not to bust your diaphram (sp) from laughing so much.

Let's just say it's the whole idea of trying to organize such a thing as unprovable as personal faith in the supernatural.

[pajarito 0]

Thanks...
Gotta catch up.

[sinker 0]

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Let's just say it's the whole idea of trying to organize such a thing as unprovable as personal faith in the supernatural.

well, since there are groups of people who believe similarly regarding faith in the supernatural, in this case, 1.1 billion people, but even if it were only a dozen, what system of organization would you propose? There must be a central point of organization, a central deposit of information regarding points of belief and disciplines that may flow from such belief.

"Personal faith" in the "supernatural" may be unprovable in an empirical sense but it is "experiencable." It's like wind... you can't see it but it's there... you can see it's effects. And it's very interesting how people of similar faiths, when they practice the tenents of their faith, develop a spiritual maturity along similar, predictable paths, such as can be found in the works of St. John of the Cross (Dark Night of the Soul) and St. Therese of Avila (Interior Castle) and the like.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

ah yes... the review is complete... and yes, he's dodged you every time on this. of course, I asked similar questions as well... such as does Kallend hate Germans b/c of the Nazi regime? Whites b/c they killed blacks? Europeans who killed Native Americans? If no, then why the hatred towards those who are Catholic? (And the response "I don't hate Catholics, I hate the Catholic Church" is nonsense... the "institution" is made up of people...)

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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It's a meaningless question. If you want to do something actually useful get the Confederate States to apologize, and stop flying their treasonous flag.

Quit changing the subject, John. His questions are very relevant to the discussion, in that they point out the fallacy of your thinking.

If you disagree, I'd like to hear your rationale, instead of just passing the buck onto the issue of Confederate flags...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[TheAnvil 0]

No worries dude. I stopped posting in the thread for a bit but decided to return and see if I could elicit an answer or two from our dear friend and physics professor. I still have high hopes of doing so, though he seems a bit hesitant to answer any question from anyone.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[pajarito 0]

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I still have high hopes of doing so, though he seems a bit hesitant to answer any question from anyone.

Don't hold your breath. He's always correct, man...
Don't you know that? There's no point in debate with anyone of a differing opinion.
"Physics rules!"

[sinker 0]

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No worries dude. I stopped posting in the thread for a bit but decided to return and see if I could elicit an answer or two from our dear friend and physics professor. I still have high hopes of doing so, though he seems a bit hesitant to answer any question from anyone.

Vinny, you're such a JACKASS!

Peace, bro! And thanks for the compliment earlier.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,131]

>And the response "I don't hate Catholics, I hate the Catholic Church"
>is nonsense... the "institution" is made up of people...

I don't think it's much different than "hate the sin, not the sinner" or hating pre-2003 Iraq but not the Iraqis. Even though sins are committed by people and Iraq is made up of Iraqis.

That being said, I think way too many people concentrate on the negatives and ignore the positives. The chuch has done a lot of good things, and I think the good they do (the charity work they do, the schools they run, the counseling they offer etc) outweighs the bad (the child-abuse scandals, the negative effects of not allowing contraceptive usage.) Personally, I think it's better to try to work for change rather than try to condemn an institution outright for its failings or its history. All institutions have problems. Heck, slavery was written in to the original constitution; doesn't mean it's evil, just means they made a mistake that has since been fixed. I think the church is similar. They've made mistakes in the past that they have rectified, and I think they will continue to do so.

[sinker 0]

bravo and thanks bill, you know why.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[gjhdiver 0]

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"Personal faith" in the "supernatural" may be unprovable in an empirical sense but it is "experiencable." It's like wind... you can't see it but it's there... you can see it's effects.

I have to respectfully disagree here. We can see, hear, feel and measure wind in every possible sense,from it's density and velocity, to it's humidity and composition.

Religious belief OTOH, is a matter of pure personal conjecture, and it doesn't really take a huge leap of the imagination to allow that people of similar bent will flock together to compound that belief amongst themselves. In an argument, quoting 1.1 billion adherents is know as "appeal to authority" and as any high school debater knows, is completely bogus. If I managed to convince 1.1 billion people that the whale is an insect and lives on bananas, it would still be complete bollocks.

I suggest a read for all Christians or others of religious bent from Prometheus books, called Athiesm, The case against God by George H Smith A great resource for why atheists believe as they do, and it does it without bashing a single religion.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/087975124X/qid=1114543465/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-7768558-8286418