New Pope Elected

[sinker 0]

Of women who use fertility awareness for birth control, 20 to 25 out of 100 will become pregnant in the first year of use." ***

again, the question de jour is, how strictly did these couples practice the techniques? were they TRYING to avoid pregnancy?

and it DOESN'T take good organization or record keeping... but it DOES take observation of your body AND the cooperation of your partner. Last time I checked, that was a GOOD Thing.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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According to the US Food and Drug Administration the failure rate of NFP is 20%, compared to 1% for the pill.***

see my other post about the "lack of agenda" that the FDA has and unlike you, they are an agency I work with day in and day out.

NFP only works if YOU work IT. And when it's adhered to scrictly it's efficacy rivals the pill. Search for the studies, professor, you'll quickly find them.

Rubbish:

"This method requires special education and training in recognizing the body's changes as well as a great deal of continuous and committed effort.
About 15 to 20 pregnancies occur over 1 year out of 100 women using this method (for those who are properly trained)."

From the US National Institutes for Health

Perfect for your agenda in 3rd world countries.

Now please cite YOUR reference for the 1% failure rate.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,175]

A 17 year old girl gets raped. What does your caring church tell her to do?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Muenkel 0]

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A 17 year old girl gets raped. What does your caring church tell her to do?

Do their best to give her counseling and advise her to press charges against the rapist.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[sinker 0]

Rubbish:

"This method requires special education and training in recognizing the body's changes as well as a great deal of continuous and committed effort.
About 15 to 20 pregnancies occur over 1 year out of 100 women using this method (for those who are properly trained)."

From the US National Institutes for Health

Perfect for your agenda in 3rd world countries.

Now please cite YOUR reference for the 1% failure rate.
***

i will cite them... but not yet... it's midnight and time for bed.

the Catholic Church's agenda for 3rd world countries is to free them from disease, poverty, abuse, murder, genocide, drugs, war, ignorance.

this method does not take special education. it's very very simple. i don't know who at NIH is writing that trash, but it's been shown that women w/ the intelligence of an 8 year old can learn NFP.

and it does take committed, continuous effort... but not much more than remembering to take a damn pill everyday. giving BC just gives license for people to be irresponsible w/ their reproductive capabilities.

how about teaching them freedom instead of slavery to unnatural and often harmful devices and chemicals? yeah, that's just too f*cking hard... takes too much work. take the easy road, kallend, it's so much less toil.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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A 17 year old girl gets raped. What does your caring church tell her to do?

my church IS caring. more than you care to open your eyes to realize b/c you too damn stuck in events that occurred hundreds and hundreds of years ago. pathetic.

we've had this discussion before. i don't care to have it again w/ someone of your ilk who doesn't give a damn about honest dialogue.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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A 17 year old girl gets raped. What does your caring church tell her to do?

my church IS caring. more than you care to open your eyes to realize b/c you too damn stuck in events that occurred hundreds and hundreds of years ago. pathetic.

we've had this discussion before. i don't care to have it again w/ someone of your ilk who doesn't give a damn about honest dialogue.

What does your church tell her to do? It's an easy question.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

What does your church tell her to do? It's an easy question. ***

you know the answer AND you're changing the topic.
how considerate of you...

goodnight professor...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Tonto 1]

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That last example, bulemia, is closely analogous to using birth control in the sexual act, be it condoms, birth control pills, etc.

So if your analogy is correct, am I right in beleiving that all Catholic bulemics are going strait to hell?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[kmcguffee 0]

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What does your church tell her to do?

What does your group of atheists do to help her? Nothing? Complain about what the church is doing to help her? Complain that the government isn't helping her?

Your constant railings against Chistianity and lack of correct facts in the most basic of arguments are calling into question my respect for secondary education in this country. If not for education then definitely for those doling out the facts in the hallowed halls.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kallend 2,175]

You're the second person to call me a liar in this thread. Which particular incorrect "fact" do you refer to?

Did the Inquisition occur?
Did it torture and kill tens of thousands in the name of Roman Catholicism?
Was it sanctioned by the church and the pope?
Did the Inquistion change its name in 1908 to "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" ?(CDF)?
Does the CDF still exist?
Was Ratzinger its head?
Are women still excluded from the highest offices in the Roman church?
Do "approved" birth control methods work effectively in 3rd world countries?

These are the things I have written about. Which one did I get wrong?

Here are some more things the Roman church thought up:

To assist people in repenting, the Inquisitors used any torture method they could think of, with the theoretical restriction that they couldn't break the skin. The Inquisitors came up with numerous gadgets to work within this restriction. They included:


The Judas Chair: This was a large pyramid-shaped "seat." Accused heretics were placed on top of it, with the point inserted into their anuses or genitalia, then very, very slowly lowered onto the point with ropes. The effect was to gradually stretch out the opening of choice in an extremely painful manner.
The Head Vice: Pretty straightforward concept. They put your head into a specially fitted vice, and tighten it until your teeth are crushed, your bones crack and eventually your eyes pop out of their sockets.
The Pear: A large bulbous gadget is inserted in the orifice of choice, whether mouth, anus or vagina. A lever on the device then causes it to slowly expand whilst inserted. Eventually points emerge from the tips. (Apparently, internal bleeding doesn't count as "breaking the skin.")
The Wheel: Heretics are strapped to a big ol' wheel, and their bones are clubbed into shards. Not very creative, but quite effective.
Methods of execution weren't much better. Since death was the eventual outcome, the skin-breaking point was rendered largely moot. While burning at the stake was the most widely used method, being cost-effective and providing a fun spectacle for the whole family, there were other approaches used in special cases:

Sawing: Heretics were hung upside-down and sawed apart down the middle, starting at the crotch.
Disembowelment: Not the nice kind of disembowelment, where a samurai slits you wide open like a fish and you die in moments. No, that's not good enough for the Inquisition. A small hole is cut in the gut, then the intestines are drawn out slowly and carefully, keeping the victim alive for as much of the process as possible.
The Stake: Depending on how unrepentant a heretic might be, the process of burning at the stake could vary wildly. For instance, a fairly repentant heretic might be strangled, then burned. An entirely unrepentant heretic could be burned over the course of hours, using green wood or simply by placing them on top of hot coals and leaving them there until well done.

The last burning by the Inquisition was in 1834.

The Vatican kept an open file on the Inquisition until 1968.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,175]

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Your constant railings against Chistianity...

Do not confuse Roman Catholicism with Christianity. Jesus didn't preach torture and execution. What remains important about the Inquisition (and the forceable conversions of native peoples in the New World) is the involvement of the church's authority with these sins, for which no formal apology has ever been offered.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

I'm not religious at all and actually have a (personal) disdain for the concept of organized religion (although on a one person at a time level, I've seen very positive results in terms of morals training and life choices), but:

this entire thread is the most bigoted, biased, nasty series of attacks on an individual and his faith in the structure of a religious organization that I've seen in a long time

it's really pathetic and classless and I suspect it's as disturbing for us to listen to as listening to people talk about race 3 or 4 or 5 generations ago

People can disagree on theology and still be civil if they are mature. But the idea that an individual can take a very positive message out of a concept that is intended to be positive and then be lambasted just because his interpretation and application (a positive and constructive interpretation at that) disagrees with what a few cynical type THINK he should be doing with it is grossly controlling and arrogant.

Sinker - I'd just stop and not let them keeping poking at you. Is it really worth it? You're now insulting in defense and I suspect the whole thread will be locked at some point.

on a lighter note - if the church intends to keep women poor and pregnant and dependent, I at least see why the Democratic party would consider that an intrusion into an area they think they own

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,175]

Facts are facts. The Roman church has a sordid history that includes genocide and has never once apologized as a church for crimes against humanity that it sanctioned. The only apology has been to acknowledge the errors of long dead individuals.

As a contrasting example, the Southern Baptist Convention has apologized as a church for complicity in slavery, and the Evangelical. Lutherans have done the same over anti-semetism.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Michele 1]

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this entire thread is the most bigoted, biased, nasty series of attacks on an individual and his faith in the structure of a religious organization that I've seen in a long time

(snip)

People can disagree on theology and still be civil if they are mature. But the idea that an individual can take a very positive message out of a concept that is intended to be positive and then be lambasted just because his interpretation and application (a positive and constructive interpretation at that) disagrees with what a few cynical type THINK he should be doing with it is grossly controlling and arrogant.

Hear, hear!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[sinker 0]

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So if your analogy is correct, am I right in beleiving that all Catholic bulemics are going strait to hell?

Your question is so ignorant as to be laughable. It's an analogy about what the process of bulemia IS, not how bulemics should be treated. Of course, since they suffer from a condition, they should be treated w/ compassion and proper treatment.

The "language" of the ACT of bulemia, inverting the secondary end of eating, i.e. pleasure, with the primary end, nutrition, is analogous to contraceptive sex. End of analogy. Nothing about Hell, fire and damnation.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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Sinker - I'd just stop and not let them keeping poking at you. Is it really worth it? You're now insulting in defense and I suspect the whole thread will be locked at some point.

you're right... i've been a pretty bad example of what it is to be a "good" Catholic, and I've let certain people get my goat when it seems that is all they want to do. it's also encouraging and vindicating that others, non-Catholics included, see the bigotry for what it is...

I'll take your advice and leave kallend to his hatred and misconceptions.

True, the Catholic Church sponsored torture and murder in it's history. But Kallend is WRONG in saying She has never apologized... So soon after John Paul II passes does Kallend forget all that the good Pope ever did, including multiple confessions and apologies, seeking reconciliation w/ the world for the Church's failings.

It just saddens me that some do not WANT to forgive. It's bondage, really.

Again, thanks for your post, It's helped me step back and see all of this for what it is...

Peace.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rehmwa 2]

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Facts are facts.

John - I'm not saying you're incorrect in your historical statements. I'm saying this exchange has very low level of sensitivity considering one side is outside and the other side has a huge personal/emotional investment to it.

The only other thread I've ever felt this was about was the Aggie bonfire deaths and how your one point, though correct, was still delivered in such a hard and judgmental way. But I'm not restricting this threads drift to just you, both sides have polarized pretty bad here.

Personally, based on the overall content on the site, I expect when I have the great good fortune to meet you, you'll likely be a decent, gentle, confidant and intelligent man and I'll be lucky to get to buy you a drink. This thread does not do that image justice.

The only assessment I would give an opinion on is the hard tone definitely did start on the anti-Catholic side before it turned into a tit for tat.

Sinker - I didn't say John was hateful or bigoted, I just said the whole thread was getting out of hand and was not on a friendly basis as it should have been. Nothing more. These are all potential friends here

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sinker 0]

Sinker - I didn't say John was hateful or bigoted, I just said the whole thread was getting out of hand and was not on a friendly basis as it should have been. Nothing more. These are all potential friends here***

sorry, I read too much into your statements. However, others have commented as well about the apparent bigotry inherent in kallends comments, no matter how strongly he denies it. and i'm glad you are calling both of us on the unkindness of the thread. however, i really have tried to always come back around to erasing the incorrect myths and misconceptions people have about the Catholic Church. Again, i'm a pretty inadequate instrument in doing so and hope that people can parse out what what are my faults and what is the true teaching of the church.

thank you to those who have pm'ed me your support and encouragement.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rehmwa 2]

PM sent

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Muenkel 0]

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The only assessment I would give an opinion on is the hard tone definitely did start on the anti-Catholic side before it turned into a tit for tat.

Bill,

Thank you for the above statement. I myself stayed out of this thread for quite a long time, because I didn't want to get into the tit for tat, as you stated. At first it was merely opinions being expressed which I can deal with. Everyone has their right to opinions. It wasn't until erroneous statements were made about the Church that I love that I felt it was time to set the record straight. I believe enough has been said on this topic. No one is going to change their mind either way. So, arguing it is futile.

Sinker, I want to thank you for using your gift of explaining the doctrines of our faith so eloquently. I do not share your charism in that way. I can do a lot better in conversation as opposed to the written word.

I wish I could share here the many spiritual experiences I have had throughout my life. But I know it would be wasted here. I also would not take these most precious gifts and put them out for people to stomp on. I just pray that many more people will experience what I have.

With that said, for me, this thread is over. Well, maybe until I get pissed off again.

Peace everyone and God Bless,
Chris

[kallend 2,175]

Bill,

I have no issue with any religion that restricts itself to the moral guidance of its own members.

I have serious issues with religions that attempt through legislation to impose their own version of morality on the rest of us.

Most agree that we have to remember the holocaust to ensure that something like it doesn't happen again.

Roman Catholics need to remember the Inquisition for the same reason, whenever they feel the urge to tell the rest of us how to behave.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Still waiting on an apology from your beloved DNC as well, Kalland. Are you ever going to answer my question?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 2,175]

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Still waiting on an apology from your beloved DNC as well, Kalland. Are you ever going to answer my question?

The apology is due from the Confederate States. Ask Texas.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Ahhh...so you are not going to answer my question. Didn't think you were the sort to be scared off by an analogy. Just thought I'd check back in and see.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!