New Pope Elected

[sinker 0]

'catholic school girl' is an even larger archetype

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archetype? you're grossly overstating there. it's a stereotype. and the corruption of catholic school girls has much more to do w/ predators like you than the educational system itself.

nice PA... very christlike.. i can see the Church's teachings at work in your life ***

Call it a PA if you like. Christ himself didn't shy away from calling people Satan, hypocrites, and the like. I'm just calling it like I see it, Zen. You are a bigot. If it get's me warned or banned, so be it. It's just a pity you are too blind to see it for yourself. You don't offer substantive arguments, like Wayne is doing, you just offer inflammatory, predjudicial remarks that, at root, are designed to insult and hurt. Your inability to admit to this is nothing but a sign of fundamental immaturity. Oh, I'm sorry, is that another PA?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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no hatred involved...

oh give me a break Zen, so many people on here, like me, see your the crap you spew as very hateful. not blind huh? whatever.

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unlike the Catholic Church i dont have issues with facts, and i can place blame squarely where it lies, with the institution that found, backs and teaches it still...

what "facts" does the Catholic Church have issues with? If you have an issue w/ the Catholic Church, you have an issue w/ Christ.

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but if you'd like to actually discuss Church policies, practice and history you'll find i'm probably better prepared than the majority of your seminary students... I'll wager i know more about the realities of your Church, its actual history and dogma than you do... of course it helps that i'm not blinded by belief

arrogance. pure and simple. you already have a preconceived PREDJUDICE (ie bigotted mindset) that my knowledge of Catholicism is BLINDED by my belief in it, whereas your preconceptions, misunderstandings, and HATRED make you TRULY objective, n'est-ce pas? that is why it's impossible to talk to you in a serious way. you're too sarcastic and not at all open to a serious dialogue.

just b/c you can't admit it doesn't mean it's not true.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

wayne:

i appreciate your post, it's very well thought out and I'll attempt at addressing it when I return from Mass.

peace, m

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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what "facts" does the Catholic Church have issues with? If you have an issue w/ the Catholic Church, you have an issue w/ Christ.

Hmmm, I just looked really really hard and couldn't find a single reference to the evils of condoms in the New Testament. Maybe you can tell me in which gospel Christ takes issue with them.

I couldn't find anything about burning heretics at the stake in Jesus's teachings, either.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

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what "facts" does the Catholic Church have issues with? If you have an issue w/ the Catholic Church, you have an issue w/ Christ.

Hmmm, I just looked really really hard and couldn't find a single reference to the evils of condoms in the New Testament. Maybe you can tell me in which gospel Christ takes issue with them.

I couldn't find anything about burning heretics at the stake in Jesus's teachings, either.

the word "Trinity" isn't in there either, yet all Christians believe in a triune God. The WORD itself doesn't need to be there in order for principles found therein to be applied to modern problems. And the Word of God DOES reference birth control. I'll find the texts and give them to you after I attend a party to celebrate the elevation to the Papacy of Papa Ratzi.

Good lord, kallend, the Inquisition was hundreds of years ago. Get the hell over it.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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what "facts" does the Catholic Church have issues with? If you have an issue w/ the Catholic Church, you have an issue w/ Christ.

Hmmm, I just looked really really hard and couldn't find a single reference to the evils of condoms in the New Testament. Maybe you can tell me in which gospel Christ takes issue with them.

I couldn't find anything about burning heretics at the stake in Jesus's teachings, either.

the word "Trinity" isn't in there either, yet all Christians believe in a triune God. The WORD itself doesn't need to be there in order for principles found therein to be applied to modern problems. And the Word of God DOES reference birth control. I'll find the texts and give them to you after I attend a party to celebrate the elevation to the Papacy of Papa Ratzi.

Good lord, kallend, the Inquisition was hundreds of years ago. Get the hell over it.

Murder is murder, even if sanctioned by the Roman church. No statute of limitations. YOUR church murdered tens of thousands of people, and no-one should EVER forget that. Explain how YOUR church is better than any other genocidal regime.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

Murder is murder, even if sanctioned by the Roman church. No statute of limitations. YOUR church murdered tens of thousands of people, and no-one should EVER forget that. Explain how YOUR church is better than any other genocidal regime.
***

No one every should forget, Kallend, for once, you are right. My Church is NOT a genocidal regime. While the Inquisition killed many people, it no longer does. Otherwise, you would probably be ashes by now. Thank the Church for it's mercy.

Do you hate all Germans simply b/c it's government was responsible for killing millions of Jews and others, even Catholics? Do you hate Americans for killing Indians? Do you hate yourself b/c people of YOUR race killed blacks in the 20th century?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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Murder is murder, even if sanctioned by the Roman church. No statute of limitations. YOUR church murdered tens of thousands of people, and no-one should EVER forget that. Explain how YOUR church is better than any other genocidal regime.
***

No one every should forget, Kallend, for once, you are right. My Church is NOT a genocidal regime. While the Inquisition killed many people, it no longer does. Otherwise, you would probably be ashes by now. Thank the Church for it's mercy.

Oh thank you, Roman Catholics, for not burning me at the stake. You are so merciful.

The Roman church killed thousands of Jews and ran an empire. I think that classifies it as a genocidal regime. Right now it is in a moderately benign period, contenting itself with interfering in politics, telling poor women to have lots of babies, and disparaging preventive methods for fatal diseases like AIDS.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

telling poor women to have lots of babies

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another untruth... the Church actually says that married couples are to be responsible stewards of their procreative capacities, having the number of children they can physically, psychologically, and materially raise. However, they should also be open to the gift of life (which has been severely denegrated in our culture) and not do anything artificial to thwart such a beautiful gift.

At root in the Catholic mentality of childbearing is trust in GOd's providence, belief that God will not give you what you cannot handle, not wreckless babymaking, as if God wants us to squeeze out as many puppies as possible. How irresponsible that would be, just as it is irresponsible of you to propogate such a distortion of Catholic Teaching.

If you cannot now afford to raise another child, by all means, don't have one. Learn self-control over your sexual appetites and learn to express your love w/ your spouse in non-genital ways while she is fertile, saving the marital embrace for when conception is less likely. It does much to break down any last vestiges of selfishness in a marriage.

disparaging preventive methods for fatal diseases like AIDS***

Even those who push condoms so damn much are forced to admit that the ONLY way to prevent the spread of AIDS is abstinence, chastity education, monogamous sex w/ uninfected partners. Sure, condoms will LESSEN the spread. But LESSENING ISN"T GOOD ENOUGH!!! When will people start believing in the inherent goodness of mankind and his/her ability to act in a way that befits his/her inherent dignity?!? THAT is what the church's teaching stands for. Not this crazy, stupid mentality that says, "ok, you may have AIDS but I want to have sex w/ you... I'll wear a condom that, in some cases, has a 1 in 10 chance of breaking. Or that has an X in Y chance of allowing some of your sexual fluids of contacting mine. It may not be Russian Roulette w/ a six shooter, maybe it's more like a hundred shooter. Still. Shitty odds all the way around. The Church refuses to accept any less of humanity than what it is capable of.

It's a shame you're so willing to settle...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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telling poor women to have lots of babies***

another untruth... the Church actually says that married couples are to be responsible stewards of their procreative capacities, having the number of children they can physically, psychologically, and materially raise. However, they should also be open to the gift of life (which has been severely denegrated in our culture) and not do anything artificial to thwart such a beautiful gift.

At root in the Catholic mentality of childbearing is trust in GOd's providence, belief that God will not give you what you cannot handle, not wreckless babymaking, as if God wants us to squeeze out as many puppies as possible. How irresponsible that would be, just as it is irresponsible of you to propogate such a distortion of Catholic Teaching.

If you cannot now afford to raise another child, by all means, don't have one. Learn self-control over your sexual appetites and learn to express your love w/ your spouse in non-genital ways while she is fertile, saving the marital embrace for when conception is less likely. It does much to break down any last vestiges of selfishness in a marriage.

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Oh, I can see how that will be successful. I have an equally good idea: lets prevent crime by telling criminals to behave themselves. Bound to work. No more burglar alarms, armed police, or CCW holders will be necessary.

There is NO guaranteed infertile period. Some times are just more fertile than others.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Michele 1]

Sinker, you're talking to a person who not only hates the Roman Catholic Church (although refuses to explain why...but whatever), he also wants to get your goat. Don't even bother. Forgive him, and realize that there is a lot of learning about acceptance and forgiveness that must be done before such a discussion has any impact on some people.

I was thinking about this topic today; I realized several things.

~Marriage of Priests: I have yet to see one stand up and say "hey, I love this job, I've answered the calling, but you know what? I want to get married." Those priests who have wanted to get married have left the position, and gotten married...

~Theological issues: It occurs to me that the Pope, and indeed the Church, is as a servant to a master. They have taken what they believe God ("master") wants, and puts it into play. Thus the "servant" serving the Master. What strikes me as fascinating is that people don't see that, or don't want to see that. They are not about setting tradition, they are about upholding tradition. We don't reinvent the church each time a pope is elected, do we? No, and so the continuity and the continuance of the theology of the Church is not changed with each pope. While there have been some changes, it is because a deeper understanding has been reached of the Master's wishes. The Church does not tell God what to do; it is doing it's best, with flawed humans, to carry out what they believe God wants. And who am I to argue with that position? I have not studied theological issues for 70 years, nor do I have at the ready more than 2000 years of documentation to draw from.

Lastly, a thought I had while washing up some dishes...if the Church did indeed allow priests to marry, women to stand in as Jesus the Christ during services, allowed birth control to control birth, and whatever other things that the non-Catholic public seems to desire, it would be the absolute strongest, most unstoppable religious movement in the history of the world. It would wield far more political power than it currently does, and it would have a gigantic population of adherents, willing to do whatever it said. Seems to me that Kallend and other detractors seem to want that to happen....

Just some thoughts....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[sinker 0]

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There is NO guaranteed infertile period. Some times are just more fertile than others.

that shows ME that you don't know much about the female fertility cycle. Let's start at the beginning, go back and read some basic sex ed books and come back when you're ready for a real discussion. M'k?
There ARE times when a woman is infertile. True, there may be that RARE break-through ovulation during menses or during phase III or even phase I, but it is so very rare. Even more rare than getting pregnant on the pill. Which happens more often than people care to admit.

The only gaurantee of not getting pregnant is to not have sex. But people w/ your mentality go for the birth control system... which all too often fails... oh wait, then there's that "fail safe" option of abortion... which has many "side effects" of it's own... it's a Pandora's [Pill]Box.

Oh and that abortion pill, RU486? It's been positively linked to TWO deaths... has the FDA pulled it? No. Changed it's labelling? No. Has ANYONE died from a Cox-2 inhibitor yet? Not that anyone knows of, yet anyway, but oh, the pressure to pull those suckers... HUGE... No, the FDA has NO agenda folks, none at all...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

haven't forgotten about your thoughtful post... just haven't had time to respond to it... i'll really try soon, if I can squeeze some time. (I know, I'm replying to Kallend, but he's easy)

m

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

Michele, if I didn't know you as I do, I'd say you were Catholic. Your response said it so well.... but I have just one question...

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU??? I'VE been trying to call your cell... and I've pm'ed you... CALL ME soon...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

Oh, I can see how that will be successful. I have an equally good idea: lets prevent crime by telling criminals to behave themselves. Bound to work. No more burglar alarms, armed police, or CCW holders will be necessary. ***

IT IS successful. In my family's life and in the lives of many, many other families who follow the Church's teaching on this. More on this in a minute.

And your analogy is fatally flawed... you're equating sex and fertility w/ criminal activity? How obscene. Again, I BELIEVE, unlike you, that people are capable, with God's grace, to gain control over their appetites and passions and subject them to a higher good. It's called self-control, self-mastery, self-possession.

AND, going back to your silly analogy, the best form of governance IS self-governance. An EXTERNAL locus of control is ALWAYS grossly inadequate in controlling human behavior, either through law-enforcement or artificial birth control. The ONLY LASTING way for humans to live in harmony -- with themselves and w/ others -- is through an INTERNAL locus of control, wherein the higher faculties of human nature, i.e. intelligence, will, reason, govern the rest of the person.

Getting really personal here... I have 4 children. The first two are seperated from the second two by 5 years. This spacing was done intentionally, through the use of Natural Family Planning, which involves observing natural signs of female fertility and identifying the point in time when ovulation occurs so as to facilitate or prevent conception. My wife came down w/ a chronic illness that dictated that we needed to postpone having more kids until either she stabilized, got better, or until we could figure out if we should even HAVE anymore. Well, through the use of NFP and an immense period of self-control wherein abstinence during fertile periods was required, we were able to postpone having more kids until we could safely have more, w/o jeopardizing her health. And now, through the same principles of NFP, now that my wife is more healthy, we have two more beautiful children.

Kallend, it works. It's good for marriage, it's good for women (as opposed to those horribly strong and unhealthy BC pills, which recently have been linked to breast cancer, as well as stroke, heart attack, etc.), and it's good for men, in that they are almost forced to develop non-genital ways of loving their wives when pregnancy should be avoided.

In divulging very personal, private information about my life and that of my family, I humbly request that it be respected. Please do not respond with sarcasm, negativity, or predjudicial remarks. You don't have to agree w/ me, but please respect what I've just written. Many thanks.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

So no woman on the rhythm method has ever got pregnant. NOT.

Your theory may be OK for women with regular cycles and clear indicators of the state of the cycle, but that excludes a very large number of women, especially those with marginal nutrition (that is, in poor countries), and older women, who often have very irregular and unpredictable cycles.

Humbug!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

So no woman on the rhythm method has ever got pregnant. NOT.

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I'm beginning to think you are, perhaps, illiterate. I expressely said that NFP is NOT the rhythym method. Did you not see that? Did you not read that? NFP's success has NOTHING to do w/ the regularity of one's cycles. Get a clue and do some research before you clack away on the keyboard. Do you know ANYTHING about NFP? About signs and symptoms of female fertility? Alterations in vaginal and cervical mucous viscosity? Basal body temperature shifts? Cervical changes? Didn't think so.

but that excludes a very large number of women, especially those with marginal nutrition, who often have very irregular and unpredictable cycles

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again, cycle regularity has little or nothing to do w/ detecting ovulation using the NFP method, also called the sympto-thermal method. Almost every woman has clear symptoms of ovulation. However, that is not the case w/ women taking birth control pills (which is a misnomer, since there is usually no birth and no control). BC pills mask symptoms of ovulation --when there is a breakthrough ovulation-- which can happen as much as 3 or 4 times out of a 12 month cycle.

Your comment about nutrition is good... didja know that the Catholic Church does an awful lot to improve the nutrition of impoverished people all over the world? It is one of the largest suppliers of food and nutrition to starving people.

Humbug***

Those pics I found of you online? I thought I saw a resemblance to the grinch.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

Percentage of Women Experiencing
an Accidental Pregnancy with the
Birth Control First Year of Use
Method (typical use)
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Spermicides 26%
Natural Family Planning
(Periodic Abstinence) 25%
Withdrawal 19%
Cervical Cap with Spermicide
Women who have given birth 40%
Women who have not given birth 20%
Diaphragm with Spermicide 20%
Condom
Female 21%
Male (latex condom) 14%
Pill 5%
IUD
with hormones 2.0%
with copper 0.8%
Injection (Depo-Provera) less than 1%
Implant (Norplant--6 capsules) less than 1%
Patch (Ortho Evra) 1%
Vaginal ring (NuvaRing) 1 to 2%
Female Sterilization less than 1%
Male Sterilization less than 1%
No Method 85%



25% failure rate in one year. NOT a very effective for preventing pregnancy but highly effective in keeping poor women in poverty, where the RC church can prey on their ignorance.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Muenkel 0]

I assume Kallend you have a link that backs up your statistics. And I'm sure with that link you would be happy to report the negative side effects of each of those methods of birth control.

I'll start it for you:

Side effects of birth control:

Natural Family Planning; Zero percent.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[sinker 0]

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Percentage of Women Experiencing
an Accidental Pregnancy with the
Birth Control First Year of Use
Method (typical use)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Spermicides 26%
Natural Family Planning
(Periodic Abstinence) 25%
Withdrawal 19%
Cervical Cap with Spermicide
Women who have given birth 40%
Women who have not given birth 20%
Diaphragm with Spermicide 20%
Condom
Female 21%
Male (latex condom) 14%
Pill 5%
IUD
with hormones 2.0%
with copper 0.8%
Injection (Depo-Provera) less than 1%
Implant (Norplant--6 capsules) less than 1%
Patch (Ortho Evra) 1%
Vaginal ring (NuvaRing) 1 to 2%
Female Sterilization less than 1%
Male Sterilization less than 1%
No Method 85%



25% failure rate in one year. NOT a very effective for preventing pregnancy but highly effective in keeping poor women in poverty, where the RC church can prey on their ignorance.

what is your source? i've seen study after study where the numbers are 97-99%... of course, the success of the method is 100% contingent on faithfulness to the method.

and would you STOP using such inflammatory remarks such as "prey on their ignorance?" you are only showing what an insensitive, bigotted person you are. (not to mention it's just infantile and annoying)

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

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25% failure rate in one year. NOT a very effective for preventing pregnancy but highly effective in keeping poor women in poverty, where the RC church can prey on their ignorance.

what is your source? i've seen study after study where the numbers are 97-99%... of course, the success of the method is 100% contingent on faithfulness to the method.

and would you STOP using such inflammatory remarks such as "prey on their ignorance?" you are only showing what an insensitive, bigotted person you are. (not to mention it's just infantile and annoying)

[Muenkel 0]

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How would you describe an organization that prevents women from getting effective health care? I think "prey" is quite appropriate

When did this thread switch over to the Muslim world?

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[sinker 0]

How would you describe an organization that prevents women from getting effective health care? I think "prey" is quite appropriate. ***

prevents? hardly. The Catholic Church does nothing to STOP people from getting artificial contraception. Last I looked, you could get AC practically ANYWHERE. The Church certainly steps in and says you SHOULDN'T give it, and it's health care facilities shouldn't give it, but the church doesn't stop sally and jane from going to anothe facility.

I'll get you some better sources on NFP effectiveness... most sources that site such a high failure rate are not factoring in the pregnancies that resulted when the couple did not follow the rules strictly.

But hey... it's FAR easier just to take a pill... take the easy road... make the woman a slave... just take a pill and you'll be just like a man... you can screw w/o consequences! at least until you have a breakthrough pregnancy... then maybe an abortion... or you develop breast cancer... or have any other untoward serious side effect of the pill b/c you think fertility is a "medical condition" requiring treatment.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 2,175]

More:

www.caminomedical.org/health/healthinfo/index.cfm?section=healthinfo&page=article&sgml_id=tw9416-sec

"Using fertility awareness takes organization, good record keeping, close observation of your body changes, and cooperation from your partner. Even when practiced carefully and consistently, fertility awareness is not a reliable method of birth control. Of women who use fertility awareness for birth control, 20 to 25 out of 100 will become pregnant in the first year of use."


From the National Institutes of Health:

NATURAL FAMILY PLANNING

This method involves observing a variety of body changes in the woman (such as cervical mucus changes, basal body temperature changes) and recording them on a calendar to determine when ovulation occurs. The couple abstains from unprotected sex for several days before and after the assumed day ovulation occurs.
This method requires special education and training in recognizing the body's changes as well as a great deal of continuous and committed effort.
About 15 to 20 pregnancies occur over 1 year out of 100 women using this method (for those who are properly trained).

Just perfect for women in third world countries.


Tell me, what is your church's position on birth control for girls who have been raped?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

According to the US Food and Drug Administration the failure rate of NFP is 20%, compared to 1% for the pill.***

see my other post about the "lack of agenda" that the FDA has and unlike you, they are an agency I work with day in and day out.

NFP only works if YOU work IT. And when it's adhered to scrictly it's efficacy rivals the pill. Search for the studies, professor, you'll quickly find them.

-the artist formerly known as sinker