Frenchy68 0 #226 April 22, 2005 I will also add that Istanbul was originally named Byzantium (head of the Byzantine Empire)... "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #227 April 22, 2005 QuoteI'm not trying to make anyone change. They are free to believe whatever they so choose. Indeed, so far only Chris and Michael have expressed a desire that anyone be kicked out of a religion (apparently me.) What???????????? How have I expressed a desire for you to be kicked out of the church? You, yourself told me a couple years ago that you left the Catholic Church largely due to your experience at Chaminade. A clarification here. 2 different scenarios: 1. "I used to be a Catholic, but I'm not anymore because I cannot accept some of the doctrine". This describes an honest person and is not commiting heresy. 2. "I am Catholic, I go to church every Sunday, receive Communion, but I don't agree with the churches teachings on abortion or birth control." This is heresy and unless corrected the individual is excommunicated by their own actions. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #228 April 22, 2005 Thank you Michele for using your brain and understanding the point Michael and I have been trying to make. I don't think it will sink in, but it was an excellent effort.Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #229 April 22, 2005 QuoteQuotePlease enlighten us. I thought you already WERE enlightened, Professor. Again, the Church will be here, "meddling," long after you're gone... how old are you again? Can you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count). I don't give a damn if you have an "interest," I just don't like how angry and hateful you seem to be about it. Yeah, I know, I'm now guilty of resorting to sarcasm and all that, I just figured I'd speak at your level... Stay angry, John, stay angry. It's REALLY good for your health, spiritually and physically. Getting back to the point, you accused me of writing untruths and I asked you to point them out. You have not done so but just went on another rant. Does that mean you concede that I wrote the truth? PS You have no idea if I'm angry or not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #230 April 23, 2005 QuoteI expect a thorough discussion of the faults of orthodox Judaism (which are many) at a pertinent time*** More self-congratulatory triumphalism coming from the Professor. You're so much better than everyone else, John. No, but I am definitely much better that those who torture and burn people to death in the name of their God.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #231 April 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteI expect a thorough discussion of the faults of orthodox Judaism (which are many) at a pertinent time*** More self-congratulatory triumphalism coming from the Professor. You're so much better than everyone else, John. No, but I am definitely much better that those who torture and burn people to death in the name of their God. That was a very long time ago, John, get over it. No wait, never mind, I'm wasting my time w/ you. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing, John. You should try it sometime. And as far as me knowing or not knowing if you're angry, you sure as hell sound it in some of your posts. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #232 April 23, 2005 Getting back to the point, you accused me of writing untruths and I asked you to point them out. You have not done so but just went on another rant. Does that mean you concede that I wrote the truth? *** To you I concede nothing. You called the church misogynistic... yet I've pointed out in numerous posts, even given references, to how, just b/c a woman cannot be a priest, that is NOT misogynistic. But you refuse to even TRY to see that from my --the Catholic-- point of view. Stay myopic John, if it makes you feel better about yourself. You're like a man who plucked out his eyes and will only believe in those things around himself that he can physically touch. How limiting. Why should we keep arguing about this? You won't concede either, you just keep up the same stupid arguments and insulting rhetoric. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #233 April 23, 2005 Can you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count).*** gonna answer that one? you certainly seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about the Catholic Church... so what happened John? why are you so bitter and hateful about Catholicism? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #234 April 23, 2005 Maybe if a Pope is selected from the deep South he will declare himself to be... Pope Buford Pope Bubba Pope Ernest Others?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #235 April 23, 2005 QuoteMaybe if a Pope is selected from the deep South he will declare himself to be... Pope Buford Pope Bubba Pope Ernest Others? how bout a black pope from the south... Pope Tyron Pope Kleavon Pope Dontay Pope Tyrel -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #236 April 23, 2005 Personally I prefer classic pope over new pope. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #237 April 23, 2005 LOL -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #238 April 23, 2005 QuoteI think it's highly relevant that the Roman church hasn't abolished the office responsible for torturing and burning to death thousands of "heretics". ------------------------ This being the year 2005, I think it is highly irrelevant. The torture, not the office, was the atrocity, and the torture ended centuries ago. The office itself is not necessarily evil because that happened. no the concept itself is pretty atrocious. And the office created to enforce it, inherits that no matter what you call it, perhaps you should check the reasons it was founded in the first place, and then its immediate history.. the idea that the church has the right to 'try' anyone's faith or religion should be offensive to pretty much everyone.... some reading for you.. on the 'legalities' of the Inquisition for a more graphic description of their actual acts you'll have to search a bit more... the Catholic Encyclopedia will never admit to error, omission, or incompetence [I]which is pretty expected given how closely the Pope is in communication with God (maybe his battery died? Lost the papel cell number.. What if God personally just doesn’t like Pope Ratz? Is he allowed to talk to ‘lower level’ priest instead to give his message to the church? Seems like that guy Sarducci is pretty easy to talk to…[/I] they've only recently accepted that the world is round, and the heavens are not constrained in crystalline spheres...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #239 April 23, 2005 QuoteDamned if I know, I quit trying to find out after I got incredibly tired of dealing with religious people. I'm sure if we could talk to Paul (Saul) then we could find out what the true chuch was and was supposed to be. Until we get a chance to ask him, then you'll just have to read his letters to the various churches of the day. there would be ALOT less conflict if more 'christians' followed the path of christ instead of the path of the church.....but most people (starting with Paul) seem to believe the Church IS Christ. one of the fundamental problems with the catholic version (and to a lesser extent every christian spin off) is the focus on the figures as icons instead of examples.... but if you do that then you dont need a church at all.. you justt have a path to follow.... Modern Buddism is making the same error in some countries...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #240 April 23, 2005 QuoteIt DOES confine itself to the teachings of Jesus and all ramifications and implications that stem from that. your book would be a whole lot thinner if this were literally true... the Church exists to support the Church.. they pay lip service to all other causes... Quotealthough the church HAS, w/o a doubt, caused "untold suffering," she has also caused untold healing, reconciliation, and joy the scales are no where near equal... entire cultures do not exist because of direct religious persecution, all driven by the Catholic Church much of what is 'untold' was simply 'unrecorded' by the historians who also conveniently happened to be priests of your church.. QuoteAs for the other things you wrote about, the whole "created it's legends" thing is a little offensive. Try a little harder not to denegrate beliefs and customs that many people hold very dear. Christianity is the story of converting mankind. It makes sense that this story incorporates and transforms the symbols and rituals of pagans you'd better get used to the fact that a bulk of your ritual, and a good bit of your mythos is completely plagiarized from other sources. It isnt offensive unless you find facts offensive… oh wait.. we are discussing the Roman Catholic Church… the institution that founded an entire order to combat "heresy" aka facts that disagreed with the “Divine Word" of the Church QuoteSeriously, I find your repeated attempts to justify the subjugation of women laughable. Quoteglad to provide you w/ some entertainment. you're not the first to fail to try and understand the Catholic perspective on this. All you can jump to is accusations of subjugation. Your understanding of the Catholic mentality is shallow at best. I’d like to take this opportunity to thank the Catholic Church and its educational system for its contribution to a continually strict, repressive environment that so greatly contributed to the extra-circular wrassling activities during my brief sojourns into their campus.... the culture of guilt, shame, and sexual repression the church instills in young women has certainly played to my advantage as a male over the years.. I do wonder if the end result that leaves them so emotionally unstable, needy, easily manipulated and largely unable to deal with the outside world is the best preparation for self reliance and a fulfilled life..... after all there are people out there far more evil than I who can and do take advantage of the Catholic Educational system and the ‘easy pickings’ it creates.. QuoteAnd by the way, Catholic's don't WORSHIP Mary. “Faithful flock” once again proving that those who predefine their patterns will find them in water stains everywhere.. its amazing what faith will do for your reason QuoteAnd it wasn't a "crap shoot" with regards to Jesus coming as a male. God doesn't "role the dice" that way. How absurd. Having Jesus come as a man, incarnate THROUGH a WOMAN makes perfect sense! i'm not sure the word 'sense' applies to the Church's logic anywhere... but the real reason is that a female messiah would have been completely ignored by the misogynistic Judaic culture that the Christians were trying to convert____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,175 #241 April 23, 2005 QuoteCan you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count).*** gonna answer that one? you certainly seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about the Catholic Church... so what happened John? why are you so bitter and hateful about Catholicism? Yes, the Roman church interferes in politics. That affects all of us. Nice diversion from your inability to find anything I wrote that was untrue. I would appreciate a retraction of your calling me a liar.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,175 #242 April 23, 2005 You have not proved that the church is not misogynistic, you have just explained why it IS misogynistic. How many cardinals are women? How many women have positions of authority over church policy. Jesus had many attributes, yet you choose one, maleness, as definitive. Jesus was also a Jew. Why not require priests to be Jews? Jesus was, you claim, born of a virgin. Why not require all priests to be the result of virgin births? Why not require all priests to be born in stables and die on a cross? The emphasis on maleness is illogical and silly.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #243 April 23, 2005 what is silly is the incredible predjudice and lack of understanding that people like you and zenister have about the Catholic Church. like I said before, remain in your hate, gentlemen, it'd does so much good for your souls. all you have proven to me is that you are completely closed to any explanation for why the Church is the way it is. and kallend, you enlightened professor of model rockets and aerodynamics and whatnot, I have no obligation to continue to try to help you see that the Church is not a malevolent organization in today's world. If you choose to fail and open your eyes, that's your problem, not mine. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #244 April 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteCan you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count).*** gonna answer that one? you certainly seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about the Catholic Church... so what happened John? why are you so bitter and hateful about Catholicism? Yes, the Roman church interferes in politics. That affects all of us. Nice diversion from your inability to find anything I wrote that was untrue. I would appreciate a retraction of your calling me a liar. EVERYTHING I've written has been about the Church NOT being misogynistic. Where have you been? Misogynistic: Hating women. Re-read Michele's posts. Who does the Church elevate as the highest Christian? Mary. (Oh, she's a woman, BTW). Who does the Church celebrate as perhaps the greatest modern day saint? Mother Theresa (another earth based carbon unit having a UTERUS!) BTW, Pope JPII went to HER for advice and direction. How interesting. Once again, b/c girls aren't priests, bishops, cardinals, popes, that makes the Church hateful of women? It's amazing to me that a person w/ YOUR level of education can ONLY see ONE POSSIBLE explanation for such a situation... women aren't priests? Well, the Church MUST hate women. And zenister, b/c some people "see" the Virgin Mary in water stains in some tunnel does nothing to substantiate the myth that Catholic worship Mary. As you have alluded, people often "see" what they want to see, you and Dr. K included. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #245 April 23, 2005 Matt. 7:6 Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #246 April 23, 2005 QuoteMatt. 7:6 thanks. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #247 April 23, 2005 the Church exists to support the Church.. they pay lip service to all other causes... Quote this is the most preposterous thing you've said yet. you have no IDEA how much the church has done to alleviate human suffering of every kind. It isnt offensive unless you find facts offensive… oh wait.. we are discussing the Roman Catholic Church… the institution that founded an entire order to combat "heresy" aka facts that disagreed with the “Divine Word" of the Church Quote and what, pray tell, facts are you referring to? The office of the CDF, which Ratzinger has headed up for 25 years, polices the integrity of the doctrines that the church teaches. facts aren't offensive, Zen, YOU are offensive in your hatred, your sarcasm and your snide remarks. Yeah, I'm sarcastic too, but hey, it's at least a language you understand. the culture of guilt, shame, and sexual repression the church instills in young women has certainly played to my advantage as a male over the years.. Quote That makes you a predator, Zen, not a Messiah. While certain elements of Catholic education have been misguided and mis-taught vis a vis human sexuality, the Church's teaching on sexuality is not the least bit repressive/oppressive... unless, of course, you consider uncontrolled, unbridled, lustful, sleazy, polygymous (sp?) sexual excess as normative and healthy (barf). I do wonder if the end result that leaves them so emotionally unstable, needy, easily manipulated and largely unable to deal with the outside world is the best preparation for self reliance and a fulfilled life..... after all there are people out there far more evil than I who can and do take advantage of the Catholic Educational system and the ‘easy pickings’ it creates.. *** Again, I'd say that those who are as you describe above AREN'T the product of Catholic moral teaching, but rather a bastardization of that teaching. I know countless men and women who are the most well-adjusted, psychologically whole people who owe it all to the proper education of Catholic morality. But if you saw them, you'd probably just think they were repressed b/c they don't espouse YOUR distorted world view. You're nothing but a bigot, Zen. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 2 #248 April 23, 2005 QuoteWhile certain elements of Catholic education have been misguided and mis-taught vis a vis human sexuality, the Church's teaching on sexuality is not the least bit repressive/oppressive... unless, of course, you consider uncontrolled, unbridled, lustful, sleazy, polygymous (sp?) sexual excess as normative and healthy (barf). Then why the prohibition on condoms? They are not exclusively used by people for "sleazy excess", but just as well by a husband and wife who want to be able to care fully for the children they already have. A condom is not, like other forms of birth control, interrupting life after it has been conceived. It prevents that conception in the first place. So why is the Church so adamant with this prohibition, especially in the face of the terrible effects of AIDS worldwide? Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sinker 0 #249 April 23, 2005 Wayne, that is an excellent question. I invite you to read Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life), the Papal document written by Pope Paul VI, which can be found here... [/url]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html[url] The short answer to your question is that it prevents the total, mutual, self-giving, self-donation that the marital act calls for. It's like saying, "I love you so much that I want to give all of myself to you, that which makes me ME, well, except for this part here... you can't have that part." And as for efficacy of condoms in preventing the spread of aids... "Condoms have a substantial failure rate for AIDS transmission. The risk of fatal infection is quantifiably significant. Among heterosexual couples studied using condoms in which one partner was infected, 30 percent became infected within the year" (M. Fischl, "Evaluation of Heterosexual Partners, Children, and Household Contacts of Adults with AIDS," Journal of the American Medical Association 257 [1987]: 447–449). "Condom use was not significantly associated with protection against infection" (Padian, Windlestein, et al, "Male-to-Female Transmission of Human Immunodeficiency Virus," Journal of the American Medical Association 257 (1987): 788). "There are no clinical (human) data supporting the value of condoms in preventing the spread of a range of diseases including . . . human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the precursor of AIDS" (Lawrence J. McNamee, M.D., Brian F. McNamee, M.D., AIDS: The Nation’s First Politically Protected Disease. National Medical Legal Publishing House, 1988, 102–113). "Sayings such as ‘the way to get AIDS is from unprotected sex’ should be avoided since they imply that ‘protected’ sex is safe. It is not" (W. Shepherd Smith, Jr. "Another Point of View: AIDS, HIV and Sex Education," AIDS/HIV News, January/February 1992, 12). My understanding of the issue specifically related to the transfer of HIV is that the actual size of the HIV molecule (right word?) is substantially smaller than the smallest porous hole in a condom. So, will condoms stop the spread of HIV? No, but it will likely decrease the spread of it. But if you REALLY want to cut down on the spread of AIDS, educate people about self-control, about mynogomy, about avoiding promiscuity. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #250 April 23, 2005 How about quoting a more recent document than those extremely outdated sources? From the CDC: Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens. Sorry, but condoms do provide a very significant lessening in risk of STD infection. Male Latex Condoms and STD's CDC's report on effectiveness of latex male condoms in preventing STDs, including HIV.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 10 of 16 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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kallend 2,175 #241 April 23, 2005 QuoteCan you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count).*** gonna answer that one? you certainly seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about the Catholic Church... so what happened John? why are you so bitter and hateful about Catholicism? Yes, the Roman church interferes in politics. That affects all of us. Nice diversion from your inability to find anything I wrote that was untrue. I would appreciate a retraction of your calling me a liar.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #242 April 23, 2005 You have not proved that the church is not misogynistic, you have just explained why it IS misogynistic. How many cardinals are women? How many women have positions of authority over church policy. Jesus had many attributes, yet you choose one, maleness, as definitive. Jesus was also a Jew. Why not require priests to be Jews? Jesus was, you claim, born of a virgin. Why not require all priests to be the result of virgin births? Why not require all priests to be born in stables and die on a cross? The emphasis on maleness is illogical and silly.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #243 April 23, 2005 what is silly is the incredible predjudice and lack of understanding that people like you and zenister have about the Catholic Church. like I said before, remain in your hate, gentlemen, it'd does so much good for your souls. all you have proven to me is that you are completely closed to any explanation for why the Church is the way it is. and kallend, you enlightened professor of model rockets and aerodynamics and whatnot, I have no obligation to continue to try to help you see that the Church is not a malevolent organization in today's world. If you choose to fail and open your eyes, that's your problem, not mine. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #244 April 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteCan you list one thing the Church has done that has personally affect your life in a negative way (self-induced rises in blood pressure over issues you disagree w/ don't count).*** gonna answer that one? you certainly seem to have a huge chip on your shoulder about the Catholic Church... so what happened John? why are you so bitter and hateful about Catholicism? Yes, the Roman church interferes in politics. That affects all of us. Nice diversion from your inability to find anything I wrote that was untrue. I would appreciate a retraction of your calling me a liar. EVERYTHING I've written has been about the Church NOT being misogynistic. Where have you been? Misogynistic: Hating women. Re-read Michele's posts. Who does the Church elevate as the highest Christian? Mary. (Oh, she's a woman, BTW). Who does the Church celebrate as perhaps the greatest modern day saint? Mother Theresa (another earth based carbon unit having a UTERUS!) BTW, Pope JPII went to HER for advice and direction. How interesting. Once again, b/c girls aren't priests, bishops, cardinals, popes, that makes the Church hateful of women? It's amazing to me that a person w/ YOUR level of education can ONLY see ONE POSSIBLE explanation for such a situation... women aren't priests? Well, the Church MUST hate women. And zenister, b/c some people "see" the Virgin Mary in water stains in some tunnel does nothing to substantiate the myth that Catholic worship Mary. As you have alluded, people often "see" what they want to see, you and Dr. K included. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #245 April 23, 2005 Matt. 7:6 Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #246 April 23, 2005 QuoteMatt. 7:6 thanks. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #247 April 23, 2005 the Church exists to support the Church.. they pay lip service to all other causes... Quote this is the most preposterous thing you've said yet. you have no IDEA how much the church has done to alleviate human suffering of every kind. It isnt offensive unless you find facts offensive… oh wait.. we are discussing the Roman Catholic Church… the institution that founded an entire order to combat "heresy" aka facts that disagreed with the “Divine Word" of the Church Quote and what, pray tell, facts are you referring to? The office of the CDF, which Ratzinger has headed up for 25 years, polices the integrity of the doctrines that the church teaches. facts aren't offensive, Zen, YOU are offensive in your hatred, your sarcasm and your snide remarks. Yeah, I'm sarcastic too, but hey, it's at least a language you understand. the culture of guilt, shame, and sexual repression the church instills in young women has certainly played to my advantage as a male over the years.. Quote That makes you a predator, Zen, not a Messiah. While certain elements of Catholic education have been misguided and mis-taught vis a vis human sexuality, the Church's teaching on sexuality is not the least bit repressive/oppressive... unless, of course, you consider uncontrolled, unbridled, lustful, sleazy, polygymous (sp?) sexual excess as normative and healthy (barf). I do wonder if the end result that leaves them so emotionally unstable, needy, easily manipulated and largely unable to deal with the outside world is the best preparation for self reliance and a fulfilled life..... after all there are people out there far more evil than I who can and do take advantage of the Catholic Educational system and the ‘easy pickings’ it creates.. *** Again, I'd say that those who are as you describe above AREN'T the product of Catholic moral teaching, but rather a bastardization of that teaching. I know countless men and women who are the most well-adjusted, psychologically whole people who owe it all to the proper education of Catholic morality. But if you saw them, you'd probably just think they were repressed b/c they don't espouse YOUR distorted world view. You're nothing but a bigot, Zen. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #248 April 23, 2005 QuoteWhile certain elements of Catholic education have been misguided and mis-taught vis a vis human sexuality, the Church's teaching on sexuality is not the least bit repressive/oppressive... unless, of course, you consider uncontrolled, unbridled, lustful, sleazy, polygymous (sp?) sexual excess as normative and healthy (barf). Then why the prohibition on condoms? They are not exclusively used by people for "sleazy excess", but just as well by a husband and wife who want to be able to care fully for the children they already have. A condom is not, like other forms of birth control, interrupting life after it has been conceived. It prevents that conception in the first place. So why is the Church so adamant with this prohibition, especially in the face of the terrible effects of AIDS worldwide? Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #249 April 23, 2005 Wayne, that is an excellent question. I invite you to read Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life), the Papal document written by Pope Paul VI, which can be found here... [/url]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html[url] The short answer to your question is that it prevents the total, mutual, self-giving, self-donation that the marital act calls for. It's like saying, "I love you so much that I want to give all of myself to you, that which makes me ME, well, except for this part here... you can't have that part." And as for efficacy of condoms in preventing the spread of aids... "Condoms have a substantial failure rate for AIDS transmission. The risk of fatal infection is quantifiably significant. Among heterosexual couples studied using condoms in which one partner was infected, 30 percent became infected within the year" (M. Fischl, "Evaluation of Heterosexual Partners, Children, and Household Contacts of Adults with AIDS," Journal of the American Medical Association 257 [1987]: 447–449). "Condom use was not significantly associated with protection against infection" (Padian, Windlestein, et al, "Male-to-Female Transmission of Human Immunodeficiency Virus," Journal of the American Medical Association 257 (1987): 788). "There are no clinical (human) data supporting the value of condoms in preventing the spread of a range of diseases including . . . human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the precursor of AIDS" (Lawrence J. McNamee, M.D., Brian F. McNamee, M.D., AIDS: The Nation’s First Politically Protected Disease. National Medical Legal Publishing House, 1988, 102–113). "Sayings such as ‘the way to get AIDS is from unprotected sex’ should be avoided since they imply that ‘protected’ sex is safe. It is not" (W. Shepherd Smith, Jr. "Another Point of View: AIDS, HIV and Sex Education," AIDS/HIV News, January/February 1992, 12). My understanding of the issue specifically related to the transfer of HIV is that the actual size of the HIV molecule (right word?) is substantially smaller than the smallest porous hole in a condom. So, will condoms stop the spread of HIV? No, but it will likely decrease the spread of it. But if you REALLY want to cut down on the spread of AIDS, educate people about self-control, about mynogomy, about avoiding promiscuity. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #250 April 23, 2005 How about quoting a more recent document than those extremely outdated sources? From the CDC: Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens. Sorry, but condoms do provide a very significant lessening in risk of STD infection. Male Latex Condoms and STD's CDC's report on effectiveness of latex male condoms in preventing STDs, including HIV.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
