Is this legal?

[AggieDave 6]

There's a different between civil law and criminal law.

Quote

A. The "student" doesnt pull because he gets clustered fucked and he craters

B. The "student" who tracking for the first time tracks into ME and takes my legs off. After all I am not aware of his actual lack of experience and he in essance risked my life by lying

C. The student who is not properly trained exits the wrong way and damages the plane

Since no law was broken in the non-training of the individual, you would have to be able to prove intent on the part of the other party. That the "student" intentially no-pulled for some reason. That the student intentionally tracked into you and injuried you, etc. I'm not saying that you couldn't "lawyer up" and file a civil suit, though.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

Nope. Because there are no federal/state/local requirements for USPA-endorsed training - and people sign waivers saying they know all that stuff can happen, and that they have no expectation that they will receive training to any specific standard.

So if someone cuts my lines on my reserve, packs me a line over on my main and I jump it , it would follow under this catagory as well? Because to me, putting someone in the air with me , that has had no training except what he learned from a balls to the walls skydiver, and lies to me about experience , is the same as cutting my lines. He is a weapon at that point, not a skydiver. Apperently the guy now has 40 actual jumps now without killing anyone but its only a matter of time in my opinion.

Quote

I think you _should_ do something about it.

I did, I am sitting here saying to other skydivers that this is wrong, that this is scarey to think happens on a regular basis, that this is not a fucking game.

Quote

Identify the drop zone where it happens and talk to the DZO about it.

I dont know where Calvin19 jumps. Read that people CALVIN19 , if you jump with him or his best friends, remember there is a risk they were trained in his bedroom without ever donning a rig, with a forged logbook. Is this paragraph against the rules Bill? He did himself say this on two other threads.

And while Im in the "training" mindset. The reason this was done was for money. You get what you pay for. My training was not cheap and I graduated in 6 solos. My progression has not been cheap. You get what you pay for. The costs we pay to learn to skydive is not alot once it is broken down to who gets what. Is your life worth the other screw ups trying to bypass the system and save 1500 bucks? Because this isnt just the students life CALVIN19 risked, he risks every single person who gets on a plane with his "student" he risks every wuffo, skydiver, child, dog on the ground when his students land. This isnt just about the student and CALVIN19 this is about the possibility that another blemish gets put on the skydiving world as well as the possibility that we lose people because someone wants to eat the cake without cooking it.

If this is a self regulating sport.... people need to start regulating.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[DougH 270]

Quote

So if someone cuts my lines on my reserve, packs me a line over on my main and I jump it , it would follow under this catagory as well?

Now your just being facetious.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

So if someone cuts my lines on my reserve, packs me a line over on my main and I jump it , it would follow under this catagory as well?

Now your just being facetious.

It's not like it's an everyday occurrence, but there is a recent fatality in Belgium that is being investigated as just that - a deliberate tampering with gear with the intent to kill the jumper. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2536597. It's an event well outside the norm, of course, but it does appear to happen.

All that said, I don't think rare situations like that make any case for legal regulation of skydiving. Regardless of how airtight the waivers are, I suspect that had that incident happened in the US, the person who tampered with the gear would be facing criminal investigation. We already have laws on the books to cover that and they have nothing to do with skydiving.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 3,114]

>So if someone cuts my lines on my reserve . . .

. . . then it's premeditated murder and we have laws against that already. We don't need new ones.

>I did, I am sitting here saying to other skydivers that this is
>wrong, that this is scarey to think happens on a regular basis,
>that this is not a fucking game.

I agree.

>Is your life worth the other screw ups trying to bypass the system
>and save 1500 bucks?

On a purely moral level, that's up to the person making the decision.

Is it worth saving 1500 bucks by not getting a cypres, given that you might well die for lack of one, or even kill someone on the ground by hitting them at 120mph? Your call.

Is it worth saving $400 by not taking a canopy control course and just buying a small canopy and learning by trial and error? Your call. Although I try to talk people out of that, in the end it's their call.

>Because this isnt just the students life CALVIN19 risked, he risks
> every single person who gets on a plane with his "student" he risks
> every wuffo, skydiver, child, dog on the ground when his students
> land.

I agree, he shouldn't do that.

>This isnt just about the student and CALVIN19 this is about the
>possibility that another blemish gets put on the skydiving world . . .

That's definitely a possibility. But something like a dozen people die every year because they are jumping small canopies; getting the FAA to ban small canopies would have a far more beneficial effect than coming up with rules against bandit training (which, as far as I know, hasn't killed anyone.)

>as well as the possibility that we lose people because someone
> wants to eat the cake without cooking it.

Now that's a mixed metaphor if I ever heard it . . .

I agree with your sentiment that it's a very bad idea, I just don't agree that we need someone from the government doing our jobs for us.

[MarkM 0]

I can go out and buy a 1300cc Hayabusa and teach anyone how to ride it, despite my only ever having ridden a motorcycle with a third of the horsepower. And when they T-bone a car at 180mph, I wouldn't be held criminally responsible and the motorcycle industry won't fear going under.

And stuff like the above happens way way more than any sort of training mis-conduct in skydiving.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

>Is your life worth the other screw ups trying to bypass the system
>and save 1500 bucks?

On a purely moral level, that's up to the person making the decision.

Is it worth saving 1500 bucks by not getting a cypres, given that you might well die for lack of one, or even kill someone on the ground by hitting them at 120mph? Your call.

Is it worth saving $400 by not taking a canopy control course and just buying a small canopy and learning by trial and error? Your call. Although I try to talk people out of that, in the end it's their call.

>Because this isnt just the students life CALVIN19 risked, he risks
> every single person who gets on a plane with his "student" he risks
> every wuffo, skydiver, child, dog on the ground when his students
> land.

I agree, he shouldn't do that.

Those uhhh were just kinda not meant to be answered lol.... kinda the whole "think about it thing"

Quote

But something like a dozen people die every year because they are jumping small canopies; getting the FAA to ban small canopies would have a far more beneficial effec

well I dont jump a small canopy, so I cant talk about that really because I have no experience on anything smaller then .9 to 1 but I am a student, so I have a personal feeling and opinion.

Quote

Now that's a mixed metaphor if I ever heard it . . .

Ya know wanting to be a skydiver, but not taking the steps to become one that have been proven. Wanting the cake and not cooking it.... my Mimi said it all the time.... its wanting something but getting their the half assed way.

Quote

I just don't agree that we need someone from the government doing our jobs for us.

I agree at this point a law would be bad.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[freakflyer9999 1]

Quote

I agree at this point a law would be bad.

Halleluja!

My 2 cents worth. I believe that what Calvin did is wrong, but there are certainly much worse things going on around me that could kill me or my family. I've lost many more friends to drunk drivers than to calvin's training method. Simply making it illegal doesn't stop it.

In case you didn't know it, there are jumpers who jump under the influence as well. You should probably be much more worried about them.

One of my pet peeves, is that anyone dumb enough can buy an ultralight aircraft and teach themselves how to fly in the skies over my head. Notice that I didn't say have Calvin teach them, but that they can teach themselves. That is scary.

[bob.dino 1]

Quote

One of the reasons USPA does a decent job of maintaining training standards is that they are NOT the government. The government is glacially slow; it took them ten years and hundreds of thousands of tandem jumps before they even recognized tandem jumping as a valid method of parachuting. It would suck to hand skydiving instruction over to the government, and then have them require everyone do static line jumps with round parachutes before they are allowed to move on to squares and freefall. (Or equivalent silly ancient rules.)

In Australia, CASA (=FAA) has the authority to regulate skydiving. They have delegated that authority to the APF and another association called the ASA.

If the USA decided to regulate skydiving or skydiving training, this would be one approach - you're only legal if you're operating under the auspices of an approved organisation such as the USPA. This keeps the authority (FAA) and the flexibility (USPA & others). People then can't break USPA rules with impunity, because in doing so they're getting on the wrong side of the FAA.

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

So if someone cuts my lines on my reserve, packs me a line over on my main and I jump it , it would follow under this catagory as well? Because to me, putting someone in the air with me , that has had no training except what he learned from a balls to the walls skydiver, and lies to me about experience , is the same as cutting my lines. He is a weapon at that point, not a skydiver. Apperently the guy now has 40 actual jumps now without killing anyone but its only a matter of time in my opinion.

The salient point is the tampering with the reserve. that is covered by the FARs.

Read the SIM. Realize it is all optional except the sections that are FAR's. Those essentially cover; packing of parachutes and reserves and the basic functions of jump operations (NOTAMS, cloud clearance, etc).

The chain of responsibility as the FAA tends to see it is Pilots, Riggers (as far as reserves), then the skydiver. The FAA assumes skydivers are in compliance with the pilot and rigging rules. Skydivers are on their own outside of the existing FARs. Skydiver training, certification, as the USPA covers the topic, is not specifically covered in the FARs.

The FAA exists to protect the public i.e. commercial aviation, then address general aviation issues. The FAA is always backlogged on commercial aviation issues.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

except the sections that are FAR's

What about the FARs that relate to "Careless operation, and reckless operation"? Which essentially cover the careless or reckless operation of a skydiver. The USPA being a enitity that compiles data, issues safety warnings, and regulates a good portion of the USA parachuting activities would probably be interviewed by the FAA, the DA, etc and would share its history and knowledge that it has spent years gathering. (of course this is considering there is a fatality of a rouge student or by a rouge student.) and then it would be up to the DA to decide if its a criminal action, like manslaughter, wreckless endangerment etc ( at least from what I was lead to understand, and from what I understand they at that point would be felony charges) . So actually I am somewhat right, it is not illigal per say, but criminal actions could come depending on the actions of the rouge student.

I have also been learning how the land down under does things, and yes I see differences that are I am sure a direct result of the govt being more involved but all in all the Aussie system seems to work. Theres a system of accountibility in teaching this sport. And from my studying of it, I think it seems a nice balance to protect the students. Then again I have more reading and research to do.

Its one thing to want to push the limits and become a pioneer in the sport, but its a disgrace in my opinion that others choose to pioneer this sport by risking others like students and others around.


I meant to respond to this earlier, but hey better late then never

Quote

The salient point is the tampering with the reserve

Truely what is the difference between tampering with my reserve vs tampering with my ability to decide for myself if sharing airspace with someone is drastically increasing my risks of injury or death due to their mis-calculated risks? When someone lies about their abilities, their jump numbers, etc etc they are tampering with my ability to make an informed decsion on if I am able to compensate when shit goes bad. More then likely things will be okay, but when things go bad in the air, they go bad at sometimes very high speeds. I choose who I jump with to protect myself and them. I expect the same in return. I choose people based on their experience, mixed with mine and matched against the dive. And I still screw up and go above my level but when I go above my level, it has always been everyones knowledege of such. Now I am just babbling. Thanks all for the responses. I am surprised at much that I have read since I started this, on here and in pm's. I appreciate all the feedback and respect your opinions.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[DougH 270]

Quote

Truely what is the difference between tampering with my reserve vs tampering with my ability to decide for myself if sharing airspace with someone is drastically increasing my risks of injury or death due to their mis-calculated risks?

One is bad judgment, one is premeditated attempted murder!!!

No one is saying this is a good idea, but it is far from tampering with some ones reserve.

No laws are going to change the fact that you may be getting on a load with people that might kill you. It might be some one with 300 jumps, or it might be the guy who just got done with AFF and doesn't understand danger tracking up line of flight despite being instructed not to.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

No laws are going to change the fact that you may be getting on a load with people that might kill you. It might be some one with 300 jumps, or it might be the guy who just got done with AFF and doesn't understand danger tracking up line of flight despite being instructed not to.

Correct, but at least I know what I am dealing with when I choose to go, because I take people at face value....I believe them when they say they have 13 or 300 or 3000 jumps. Guess thats what the real problem is, I trust a skydiver when they tell me their numbers, skills and lack there of.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[scratch69 0]

Quote

The jumper has 3 years in the sport at approx 100 per year. Am I wrong for being disgusted at this?

As far as your original post goes, the answer is NO, you are not wrong for being disgusted. In fact you can feel anything you want, its a free country. You can also speak out against it, again the whole free country thing. What you can't do and shouldn't do, is try to be everyones mommy. You have a CHOICE who you skydive with. If you agree to do group RW with people you do not know and have never jumped with, guess what, you have nothing to complain about when someone kills you. One of my first coaches once taught me, treat everyone in the air as if they are trying to kill you, especially the people you know!!! Stop thumping law books and imposing unecessary laws on us. We all agree it was wrong and the guys an asshole. But thats where it ends. You can do NOTHING about it. Deal with it. Ignorance is bliss. This is skydiving, not tennis sweety. People can and WILL die, whether they are breaking rules or following them. DONT MAKE MORE RULES, OR PEOPLE WILL JUST BREAK MORE RULES!! Its human nature. If you do what you are supposed to do, you will never have to worry about these weird hypothetical scenarios you keep dreaming up in this thread.

PS. if this guy lands on your head while your standing at the DZ because of a "no pull", well not only is that the shittiest luck ever, but its also covered in that waiver you sign at every DZ that tells you that your life is in danger just be being at the DZ.

Thanks for bringing this issue up, and your opinions are valid, but stop now. We do not need any more regulations. Stay safe (as possible)

- - i was sent here to disturb the peace - -

[billvon 3,114]

> Guess thats what the real problem is, I trust a skydiver when they
> tell me their numbers, skills and lack there of.

That may be a good lesson, then. Some people lie about their jump numbers to impress women, get on better loads, or not be hassled about pulling low. Some people lie about their skills for the same reason. In their eyes it may not even be a lie; they may indeed be the best freeflyer on their drop zone (they may be the ONLY freeflyer on their dropzone!)

Don't bet your life that someone on a jump has enough skill to do X, Y and Z. Plan the dive so you can avoid them if they turn out to have all the skill of a drunk polecat.

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

keep in mind there are dz's out there that aren't USPA group members.
Is it smart? No

So why is it so smart to be a group member?

Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[yamtx73 0]

Quote

Quote

keep in mind there are dz's out there that aren't USPA group members.
Is it smart? No

So why is it so smart to be a group member?

Be safe
Ed

I wasn't referring to being a group member... I was stating that it isn't smart for someone with no training as in instructor to teach someone to skydive...

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

I was stating that it isn't smart for someone with no training as in instructor to teach someone to skydive...

On a few occasions I have seen some of my past students with 100-200 or so jumps have more of an ability to train AFF students then some rated instructors that I have seen........
Just like, I have had some students breeze through my AFF course and you'd swear they already knew how to skydive before they came to me for training......



Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[douwanto 22]

girl you are right go play scrable!!!!!!!!!

I want my hippie jacket back!!!!!
No laws please. It seems to me that if a person had never done what you ask about we would never have arrived where we are in this sport today.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

I want my hippie jacket back!!!!

Send your addy papa oh wait now your Grandpapa. I just pulled it out of winter clothes, and dont call it a hippie jacket its a hoodie. Or I can mail to the farm if you will be there soon

yes this is completley off topic, and I wont respond to the topic anymore because it really doesnt matter what i say on here, the people who disagree state why and tell me to take up tennis, and most the people who agree but dont want flamed just pm me to tell me they agree . Its the internet, who really cares right?


Hugs Papa

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[happythoughts 0]

clicky

Just because people think that they experts, does not mean that they are experts. Or worse, they are not qualified to teach others.

Thinking that you are qualified is not that same thing as having the experience, taking the class, and getting the rating.

Just because "there is no law", doesn't mean that is a good idea either. Sometimes, it takes a disaster to figure that out.

I don't think that the disaster should happen to someone with no jumps. That person truly has no idea about what possible scenarios could occur or how to deal with them. That is part of the value of the training.

Legal or not, it is stupid to gamble with another persons life. I would not call that person a friend.

Quote

Kay Tauscher, owner of Peak to Peak Paragliding in Boulder, was walking her dog at Wonderland Lake near the time of the accident and spotted the two lone paragliders.

"I thought 'That's weird, this is clearly not a day to fly,'" Tauscher said, noting the wind was blowing the wrong direction. "Anybody who's been through proper training knows today is not the day to fly."

Paragliders launching from Wonderland Lake need winds to be moving in an easterly direction to fly safely, Tauscher said, not from the west like it was blowing Monday morning. When the wind is at a paraglider's back, it creates a condition known as a "rotor," Tauscher said, and paragliders are not engineered to fly in that "kind of air."

Tauscher said there had been talk in the local paragliding circles about some younger, inexperienced paragliders launching in less than desirable conditions from Wonderland Lake, but there is no law that they must be licensed.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I can go out and buy a 1300cc Hayabusa and teach anyone how to ride it, despite my only ever having ridden a motorcycle with a third of the horsepower. And when they T-bone a car at 180mph, I wouldn't be held criminally responsible and the motorcycle industry won't fear going under.

You'll be fine, yes. But when he (if anything remains) is found with a borrowed driver's license and no M endorsement of his own, he (or his estate) will be taken for any damages caused.

No new laws are needed for the instructional case, but no new ones are needed. The jumper, not the 'instructor,' committed the fraud.

As for the silly criminal vs civil distinction, what FAR violation would be a criminal offense?

This thread is a bit odd. Generally when we talk about contracts, everyone likes to thump their chest, bitch about lawyers, and declare that contracts are absolute. Now it seems that the customers who sign them aren't responsible for their statements. Go figure.

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

What about the FARs that relate to "Careless operation, and reckless operation"? Which essentially cover the careless or reckless operation of a skydiver.

Which FAR is that?

Depending on the evidence, the state can file any charge they like. What does the evidence show? The defense attorney will point out that the parachute equipment was in compliance with FAR part 65 and jump operations were in compliance under FAR part 105.

FAR AC 105-2C Advisory Circular

5. INFORMATION ON REGULATIONS AND ASSOCIATED PUBLICATIONS

C. The USPA has developed basic safety standards and additional information for skydiving activities. These standards and information are for training, checking equipment, and conducting a wide variety of sport parachuting activities. While not officially approved by the FAA, these standards are widely used for guidance by individuals and parachute centers. They may be obtained from the United States Parachute Association, 1440 Duke Street, Alexandria, Virginia 22314, (703) 836- 3495.


The non-USPA jump operation/ instructor doesn't break any laws. I share your feelings about such operations. If a skydiver dies at such operation the DA has to prove their case. Just because the instructor wasn't a USPA instructor doesn't prove negligence. It could just as easily be a case of death by misadventure. Skydiver knew the risks, had good equipment, exited the aircraft of their own freewill, failed to deploy either parachute and unfortunately died.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[recovercrachead 0]

lisamariewillbe, You are trying to throw gasoline all over this thread. Calvin didn't put a gun to this guys head and say jump. Should we hang him or throw rocks at him. Like I said I was involved in something similar, maybe I was maybe I'm not but everything worked out. There are non-uspa DZ out there were anything goes. It takes the right kind of person to do there first jump this way to begin with.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[icevideot 0]

Quote

But when he (if anything remains) is found with a borrowed driver's license and no M endorsement of his own, he (or his estate) will be taken for any damages caused.

I am just curious why you assume he didn't get his motorcycle license? I could teach someone to ride a sport bike through the cones and earn a license.

Still doesn't prepare them for what the bike is capable of.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."