Religious Help Wanted...

[Zenister 0]

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Try finding a church that really encourages questioning (I say church, but that can mean synagogue, temple, whatever). Just go sometimes, get a feel. You might find it's the wrong place, but, well, that'll be one down.

i agree with the seeking.. i disagree with the source, at least early on....

churchs (synagogue, shrines, temple etc.. pick your relevant simile) are poor choices to begin with... as is an established religious institution they will not have the goal of having you find YOUR truth, but instead want you to reach THIER particular flavor of truth...

far better to educate yourself on the basic tenets of the major religions first (its not a bad idea to examine some of the ‘dead religions’ as well, the reasons they ‘failed’ are very enlightening), then examine your own heart, mind and environment in search of the divine. Follow the path your personal search leads you on... what is fundamentally silly is the religious assertion that God will only speaks to you through others, is only to be found by reading what others say about him, that you can have no direct revelation apart from those of an organized religion, or that you need the social trappings of religion at all...

God doesn’t hide, and you don’t need any one text or preacher to find her... you just have to teach yourself how to observe what is already in front of you

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 3,114]

> The more I read about religion, the more confused I am.

That means you're learning! The only people who are pretty much guaranteed to be wrong are the ones who think they have all the answers.

>For now, I believe in something. I can't imagine that we are here by
>random chance.

I can recommend "The Blind Watchmaker" by Dawkins. It's a great explanation of how we came to be. The process is really pretty amazing.

>When I'm more well educated about the religions of the world, maybe
>I'll discover one that is right for me.

With an attitude like that, you are a lot more likely to discover one that works for you, your morality and your view on life. Good for you.

[JackC 0]

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God doesn?t hide, and you don?t need any one text or preacher to find her...

So where exactly is he/she/it then?

[Zenister 0]

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God doesn?t hide, and you don?t need any one text or preacher to find her...

So where exactly is he/she/it then?

look around, teach yourself to pay attention to the smallest things... divinity is in the details....

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[smiles 0]

I may have smoke comin out of my ears too!
Not a very good feeling to have about yourself, and I have come to resent anyone that tries to push what they believe on to me...even if they feel in their heart that they have to save me. If the bible was meant for me to pick up and read, and understand without any help, or fear of goin to hell, then possibly I may read it. Feel very strongly that my children not be subjected to any religion until they are old enough to make decisions for themself. Without religion they naturally are fully aware of instinct of what is right and wrong.

My partner & myself were together for many moons, raised our children, skydived together...were not religious and never got married. Never committed any crimes, tender loving, good people and parents that would give anyone the shirt off our back.

My partner decided one day after 9/11 that he was going to start studying the bible-- but the bible was the JW version and the reason was out of fear.

People change they say...but I feel that his choice of religion has separated us completely and any religion that drives people apart and against each other....rather than together, is not for me.

He studied with JW's and using Watchtower as full time guide. So, so much I do not understand but regardless what hurts so bad is our relationship now is not 2 partners in life together. Also all of our past relationship is considered by him to be "not in the truth", he considers himself "in the truth" and me "not in the truth"..............re: we lived in sin not being married and having children, and he is "not in the truth" if he has relationship with me. He wanted to get married at a JW hall--- otherwise, we can live under the same roof but not have sex, he lived downstairs, I lived up. We had a fake existence doing that....so I got out.

He has been more intensely encouraged to only "hang" with those "in the truth"
and feels JW's are the one -and only true religion on this earth. Something about the faithful & discreet slave class, trinity is not believed, going to war not believed, spreading the good word to save others is #1. Only a flock of 144,000 go to heaven and rule with Christ. The 144,000 are born again as spiritual sons of God. Christ was first of God's creations, Kingdom under Christ will rule earth in righteousness and peace on earth.
He is about to be baptized-

I sincerely do not know him anymore, even if he did choose against this religion- do not think I could forgive him. It is almost like he is mentally ill, or part of a cult. Everything is either good or evil in his mind, Armageddon is going to happen- concentrates souly on negative news in the world, takes verses from the bible literally.....and argues full time about his knowledge of being correct. Socially our group of great friends- he doesn't consider friends anymore.
He doesn't want to skydive anymore because of the people...says "atleast the people at the hall don't drink and drive............."

I just keep telling him to find himself a sweet JW lady and get busy saving everyone else. I do not need saving. Even his relationship with his own son's has become distant, they prefer not to communicate with him as everything comes around to Jehovah.

Makes no sense to try and validate what he believes, just understand that he is doing what he thinks is right in his heart.

yada yada,
he has broken my heart.

SMiles

eustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being.

[jumpjunkie2004 0]

I'm going to check to see if they have the book at our library and I'll add it to my reading list.

Thanks Billvon!

Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

[jumpjunkie2004 0]

Karen,

It sounds like you've had a rough time of it. I'm so sorry to hear how religion has altered one of the most meaningful relationships in your life.

It's very sad that he can't see what he's sacrificed to be on his new path.

One of my friends is a skydiver and a born again Christian. She prays for everyone at our DZ. I have radically different beliefs and I think she has been brainwashed.

At times she is extremely sad because she does not have a relationship, but she will not allow herself to have one because of her religion. This makes no sense to me. Yet another thing I don't understand...

I'm very sorry for your loss and hope your broken heart heals quickly.

Sarah

Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

[Muenkel 0]

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Try finding a church that really encourages questioning (I say church, but that can mean synagogue, temple, whatever). Just go sometimes, get a feel. You might find it's the wrong place, but, well, that'll be one down.

Some of it is the community of people, and the kind of thinking that communicating with them brings. Some of it is the activities.

It doesn't sound like you're looking for firm answers, but instead for a place where you can explore the questions that are important to you. You might find that you are looking for a more fundamentalist approach or a single answer, but it's better to learn that for yourself, rather than have it shoved on you. When you find it for yourself, you're coming in with knowledge, rather than subject to being disillusioned.

How do you figure out where will encourage questions? Websites, the tone of what they have out there, etc. If they seem pretty open-minded, they probably are.

Wendy W.

I think Wendy's above suggestion is an excellent one. I get the impression that you do believe there is some form of deity out there. If I'm right, have you thought about asking that deity to direct you to the religion that you are most suited for?

Chris

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Chris

[jumpjunkie2004 0]

I believe in "something".

I believe that our souls are "recycled" and over many life times our souls evolve.

I believe that we should look beyond God and the theory of "heaven" and "hell". I don't think it is that simple.

Maybe those places exist, but getting into "heaven" is not a result having blind faith. I think it's a result of having your soul mature and purify. Telling your neighbor that she is going to hell for believing in reincarnation doesn't seem very mature.

If there is a God, he is tolerant.

Where do I belong? The jury is still out...

Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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have you thought about asking that deity to direct you to the religion that you are most suited for?

One doesn't need religion to have a relationship with God. As an agnostic, part of me accepts that maybe just maybe there is a being capable of reading my thoughts (ie: my prayers, which are rare, but I have been known to do it). But I don't need a man made religion to have a relationship with that being. Of course the another part of me looks at everything from the single cell organisms all the way up to the universe and it's galaxies and wonders why do humans think they are special? I guess we'll find out one way or another when we die. But you better believe than I'm not going to let a man made religion influence my future.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Muenkel 0]

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Telling your neighbor that she is going to hell for believing in reincarnation doesn't seem very mature.

I agree, which is why I wrote what I did in post #6 of this thread.

Chris

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Chris

[JackC 0]

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divinity is in the details....

Isn't that usually the Devil? If the best you can come up with is hey look at that tree, isn't it pretty, therefore God exists; then I'm sorry I asked.

[pajarito 0]

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divinity is in the details....

Isn't that usually the Devil? If the best you can come up with is hey look at that tree, isn't it pretty, therefore God exists; then I'm sorry I asked.

"The New Age Movement is a very broad, feel-good, movement. It teaches inner-divinity, goddesses, the Christ consciousness, spiritual evolution, being one-with-nature, and anything else you want to believe -- except Christianity."

New Age Movement (e.g. Pantheism)

More on New Age Movement

[jumpjunkie2004 0]

I followed the link. Interesting...

Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

[JackC 0]

" and anything else you want to believe "

And there you have it.

[pajarito 0]

I don't personally buy into that but...hey...everyone can read and make up their own minds. To each his/her own.

[jeiber 0]

I've heard similar stories regarding JW. Although this group does good in the community to maintain it's social acceptance, this 'religion' has ruined many, many lives. Smiles' is just one more sad story to add to the list. I try to be an open minded and tolerant person, but I admit, I struggle with this one.

I'm honestly not very educated on religion, but I have a hard time respecting any faith that divides families. As I said, this isn't the only case. A coworker died, and part of his immediate family (JW ones) wouldn't attend his service, because they refused to set foot in a Christian church...

Sorry for your loss.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Zenister 0]

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divinity is in the details....

Isn't that usually the Devil? If the best you can come up with is hey look at that tree, isn't it pretty, therefore God exists; then I'm sorry I asked.

if you think i said 'hey look at the trees' you have ALOT of learning to do...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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divinity is in the details....

Isn't that usually the Devil? If the best you can come up with is hey look at that tree, isn't it pretty, therefore God exists; then I'm sorry I asked.

"The New Age Movement is a very broad, feel-good, movement. It teaches inner-divinity, goddesses, the Christ consciousness, spiritual evolution, being one-with-nature, and anything else you want to believe -- except Christianity."

New Age Movement (e.g. Pantheism)

More on New Age Movement

such nice blinders you have there,.. do they come embroidered with the crucifix?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Shotgun 1]

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So...I'm wondering...am I going to hell?

No one can really answer that for you. I personally don't believe in "hell" so I would say no, but I can't prove it.

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In order to make an intelligent choice about religion, I need to explore all the options.

I think it's a great idea to learn about all the different religions, but I think the answer is ultimately within yourself. And to me, the fact that there are so many different religions says a lot about which one is correct.

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Is it reasonable for parents to project their religious beliefs on their children or is it better to let them find their own beliefs?

I see no problem with projecting your religious beliefs on your children, as long as they are free to hear what the rest of the world has to say about it. Even being raised in a strict religious environment, any intelligent child will make their own decision about religion, and it may or may not turn out to be the same belief as yours. If I had a child, I would tell them what I believe (I am an atheist), but I would make sure that they had access to information about the various religions.

[JackC 0]

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if you think i said 'hey look at the trees' you have ALOT of learning to do...

You said (and I quote)

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look around, teach yourself to pay attention to the smallest things... divinity is in the details....

What the blue blazes does "the divinity is in the detail" mean? Do I need a microscope? How do I know when I've located a lump of divinity? What happens when I poke it with a stick? Does it smell?

But if I need to join a commune, unblock my chakra's and learn how to bend spoons with the awesome psionic power of my own karmic hemorrhoids, then forget I asked.

[smiles 0]

Hey, thanx...you are too sweet.

Your post hit a nerve....and I reponded with my own personal experience with Religion in my family, on a public chat list???

I should apologize to you as my response was totally dumping my experience rather than reponding to what you posted.


In regard to Born againism & neighbors:
I have been in this situation and avoided them for a very long time. On the surface they seemed like lovely people. Their children came around singing carols at Christmas time giving a plate of home made cookies, they constantly invited me for dinner in their home and I did finally accept. Sitting at the table with the family one of the son's spilled a glass of milk on the carpet and the father sitting at the head of the table had a major fit of anger. Here I felt what it was like for the kids....they were living in "fear from their father." After dinner I was invited to sit in the living room with the Mom & Dad and the children were ordered to their rooms to do their bible study. I felt "cornered" and uncomfortable. They asked if I had met Jesus and when I replied "no" they went on and on explaining how Jesus was everywhere. The father explained how once in his life he was on the verge of suicide and was saved...by jesus....or "born again." I got myself out of there some how real quick....and avoided communicating with them again.

When I was 5 yrs. old an uncle asked permission from my mother to take me to church with his family. The church was a holy rollin evangilistic service where people were yelling and screaming and some people were on the floor rolling around. I was absolutely terrified. So- not having a father, think I was naturally afraid of "older men." Also figure from that day forward I have felt extremely uncomfortable with anyone that preaches...even sales men, male teachers, authority figures. A strong instinct of not trusting.

Below I am quoting parts from some online sources on "Know Jesus, or Go to Hell" Born againism.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/why.html
At the same time, I have heard the scripture "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

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No one seeks unless he wants to learn. When one seeks "truth", his mind must be open to receive the truth. "Truth" often depends upon our point of view.

Being a born-again Christian is sufficient condition for going to heaven, and that being in heaven is a sufficient condition to guarantee that you are a Christian?? So only those who are born-again Christians will find themselves in heaven -- and those who are not born-again Christians will not.

If the God of the Bible existed, is he an invention of the Israelites with degrees of Paganism mixed in?? Jesus claimed that anyone with the faith of a mustard seed could say to a mountain, "Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." (Matthew 17:21) Although Jesus allegedly made the claim, I haven't seen any documentation where it has actually happened. Nor have I ever heard of anyone to whom "...nothing shall be impossible".

Can anyone provide extrabiblical, historical, eyewitness evidence that Jesus existed?? With all of the miracles and wondrous deeds he allegedly performed according to the bible, there must be countless books and scrolls written by credible eyewitnesses to his existence??

Born again Christians argue that the bible is the infallible, inerrant, inspired word of God. When a born again fundamentalist Christian speaks of salvation or matters regarding his spiritual beliefs, he usually backs up his statements by quoting the bible to prove his authority. He quotes biblical verses taken from various areas of the bible in a certain sequence. The quotes and the sequence serve as the authority to prove that the statements are true.

Nearly any religious doctrine can be "proven" by quoting scriptures in the alleged proper sequence, claiming they are all in context with each other. Christians use scripture to prove they are correct. Interestingly, there are hundreds of differing Christian factions - all using scripture to prove that only they have the truth.

It is a fact that not a single original manuscript of any book of the bible exists today. By the time the latest book of the bible was written, all of the original manuscripts had long since been worn out and replaced by copies. There were no firsthand copies. They were copies of copies of copies....and on and on. Has anyone ever seen the entire bible as it was originally written.??

The bible is the inspired word of God and they choose to believe it because the bible says it is the word of god. A favorite quote by born-again Christians is, "The bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!". No reason, logic, thinking or knowledge is required.

The bible is a self-perpetuating book. It makes claims and then warns and threatens us not to dispute those claims under pain of being cast into a "lake of fire". If you choose to believe the entire bible literally, you are left absolutely no room or right to questions its validity or authority.

Was the entire content of the Bible chosen by men? The writings which were excluded were excluded by men. Did these men have an agenda which was to propagate and preserve what they believed.?? Some scholars chose to include books contained in the "Apocrypha" and these books appear in the Douay-Rheims version of the Bible. Other men chose to omit the Apocrypha, so it is not included in the King James version. Divine inspiration of what to include and preclude in the Bible then, often depended upon the whims and agenda of a man or a few men who made the decision.

I feel that one would have some knowledge of the bible, its origins and history of the church before basing their entire life on what others have been taught and decided to accept as true. Does the bible contain contradictions, inconsistencies??? The bible is a compendium of books by different authors from different time periods. Much of the bible is borrowed from earlier, ancient religions.

Although Jesus never referred to his 'miraculous' birth, Christians claim he was born of a virgin - a most unusual happening. The 'original' evidence is supported only in the gospels of Luke and Matthew. It is not supported in any historical work. There are, however, other "virgin" births in other ancient religions similar to the one described in the bible. When confronted with scientific evidence that a virgin birth is difficult if not impossible, the born-again response is usually "God can do anything". Born-again Christians will not accept a response from a non-believer as phenomena which occurs outside of Bible teachings as it is usually attributed to Satan, demons or just plain "evil".

While we know that a human must have oxygen to live and that the digestive juices in a fish's stomach will deteriorate metal, nevertheless, the bible teaches us that Jonah lived in a fish's belly for three days and survived. Again, the born-again Christian response is usually "God can do anything" which is, of course, an entirely inadequate response.

Did Christianity invent sin? Then, Christianity offers to "fix" it so the sinner can go to heaven?
Are seasoned born-again Christians accurate or knowledgable with their teachings about salvation, born-againism, etc. ?? They parrot what they've been taught. What they've been taught may be incorrect, inaccurate and unproven (falsehoods) they in turn teach their falsehoods to others.

SMiles

[Zenister 0]

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if you think i said 'hey look at the trees' you have ALOT of learning to do...

You said (and I quote)

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look around, teach yourself to pay attention to the smallest things... divinity is in the details....

What the blue blazes does "the divinity is in the detail" mean? Do I need a microscope? How do I know when I've located a lump of divinity? What happens when I poke it with a stick? Does it smell?

But if I need to join a commune, unblock my chakra's and learn how to bend spoons with the awesome psionic power of my own karmic hemorrhoids, then forget I asked.

of those words, i suspect that 'hemoriod' is the only one you grasp the meaning of...so perhaps i should forget you asked, but really

What do you expect to find when you look for 'god'? are you really looking?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[jumpjunkie2004 0]

Oh Smiles...

The neighbor thing closely parallels my experience. After about an hour of hearing that I have to accept her beliefs if I want to go to heaven, I said, "If there are people like me in hell, that's where I belong."

I just couldn't listen any more.

We weren't going to see eye to eye. I refuse to believe that it's black and white. I refuse to believe that God (if he is real) won't have a place for people like me.

I am not going to choose a religion because it will get me into heaven. If there is a God, I'm guessing he's smart enough to know when someone is pretending.

Many of the stories in the bible are scientific improbabilities. For example, the ark story. I don't buy it. Maybe it rained. Maybe there was a flood. Maybe it took weeks for the water to subside. However, this happened back when they thought the world was flat. They didn't even know it was round. So tell me, how would they know if the entire thing was covered with water?

The bible is an interpretation of what happened. Maybe they misinterepreted some things. Maybe someone just made it all up to control a group of people.

I don't know.

I'm sure this is what they call lack of faith. It's nice to know I'm not alone.

Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

[billvon 3,114]

>For example, the ark story. I don't buy it. Maybe it rained. Maybe there
> was a flood. Maybe it took weeks for the water to subside. However,
>this happened back when they thought the world was flat.

It looks like there actually WAS a flood of biblical proportions around 12,000 years ago. As the sea levels gradually rose, the Mediterranean broke through the Bosporous straits and began flooding what is now the Black Sea. Imagine - an area hundreds of miles across, once farmland, covered by the sea within a few months. They estimate the water rose six inches a day for several months. It took years for the levels to finally settle down to what is today the Black Sea.

There are legends about it in nearly every society of the time - the Babylonians had the legend of Gilgamesh in the flood, the Greeks and Romans had their stories of Deucalion and Pyrra saving their families and some animals by boarding a big boat.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html