Free healthcare

[AggieDave 6]

Canada has a "great" healthcare system, according to some Canadians statements here on DZ.com on more then a few occasions...

Reading about things like this makes me very glad to live in the US and simply pay insurance instead:

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=8fa9ad58-f9d3-4fcb-a9c7-a239583dce0b

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[markd_nscr986 0]

AggieDave,

Shame on you!

What a blatant Canada bashing troll

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[IanHarrop 43]

If you think its free you're wrong. We get taxed for heavily to pay for health care.

There are two main difference between Canadian and American health care systems.

- In Canada we have a single payer system rather than multiple insurance companies in the US.

- In Canada we limit access to health care by rationing availability, in the US health care is rationed by limiting the number of people that can afford it.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Canada has a "great" healthcare system, according to some Canadians statements here on DZ.com on more then a few occasions...

Reading about things like this makes me very glad to live in the US and simply pay insurance instead:

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=8fa9ad58-f9d3-4fcb-a9c7-a239583dce0b

Those who think anything is free are likely to believe David Copperfield really made the Empire State Building disappear. I wonder if the Canadian Govt. provides free Midol.

http://www.midol.com/

[lawrocket 3]

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In Canada we limit access to health care by rationing availability, in the US health care is rationed by limiting only limited by the number of people that can afford actually pay for it.

There. I fixed it for you.

In a sense, Canada's system works better because at least you can be sure everyone is paying at least a little for it, which you don't find here in the US.

A fellow poster to our boards (and a legendary dude) is undergoing a surgery today. The doctor found the reason two days ago. He didn't have to wait 45 days for the surgery, hoping the disease wouldn't spread too far in the interim.

And, by the way, how does the Canadian or English system treat immigrants, tourists, etc? Do they get "free" treatment under "free" medical care?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[IanHarrop 43]

I can't argue with high availability of healthcare in the States. I know that people can get treated very quickly there, if they can pay for it. This is not the case in Canada - as I said, we ration healthcare by limiting availability.

I can't speak accurately with any about what we do for guests as I don't have any personal experience - may be we send them to the States!

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[kelpdiver 2]

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I can't argue with high availability of healthcare in the States. I know that people can get treated very quickly there, if they can pay for it. This is not the case in Canada - as I said, we ration healthcare by limiting availability.

The key difference is in supply. Were we able to shift to a single payer system without damaging that, costs would be much lower here and the hassle of getting routine care would be much lower. But a billion paper pushers would be out of work.

[miked10270 0]

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...how does the Canadian or English system treat immigrants, tourists, etc? Do they get "free" treatment under "free" medical care?

Health care (& indeed the whole socialised care network) is available to all persons legally resident in The UK. I think they look at the preceding year, & obviously the existence of a National Insurance # & NHS#. So technically an American tourist is going to get a bill.

In reality, for "emergencies", EVERYONE gets the same level of care. Our medical services are run on a basis of need, not of ability to pay. As such, the American tourist who collapses in the street will be picked up by ambulance, taken to hospital, & treated as neccessary. At some point when all that is over, some administrator will ask; "Should he pay? Can he pay?"

The main difference I perceived between UK & US hospitals was the amount of administrator influence over clinical decisions. In The UK, clinical staff make clinical decisions purely in the interest of the patient (& with the assumption that this treatment is already paid for) while administrators are expected to stay in their offices and administer. Quite frankly, God help the administrator who tries to tell clinical staff how to treat a patient on the basis of something so tawdry as money!

Finally, bear in mind that our much maligned NHS is run at around 40% of the cost of American health care.... Despite our care including seriously long term care if neccessary.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Vallerina 2]

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But a billion paper pushers would be out of work.

Hmmm.... Not everyone who works in health insurance would be out of a job. I'm not really sure what that % would be, though. Interesting point.

Anyways, I hate how much of a pain in the bum my health insurance is. Yes, I'm covered well; however, the whole HMO thing with limited hospitals in my area meant that I've had to wait a month on numerous occassions for care that was "urgent." I can't go to a doctor outside of my plan because then it's just much too expensive. Also, the clinic that was in my plan (the only one that was reasonably close at the time) was a mess. They lost my file. They forgot to send me my results when a test came back with problems on it. Luckily, they finally got a new network on my plan, but before that, I had about a year of hassles. My personaly experience hasn't show that our system of healthcare isn't all that fantastic.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[lawrocket 3]

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people can get treated very quickly there, if they can pay for it.

No, people get treated quickly here REGARDLESS of whether they can pay for it! Then they get billed for it, and if they cannot pay for it, the care providers bil others more to make up for it.

Another issue is rationing - is there a pecking order for procedures? I.e., an 80 year-old man, in retirement, fell and now needs a hip replacement. A 30 year-old man also needs one so that he can go back to work as a roofer (he fell off the roof). Would a socialized medical system ration the care to provide it to the one who can put most back into the economy? IT seems to me that for rationing to work, society must get the most economic benefit.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Another issue is rationing - is there a pecking order for procedures? I.e., an 80 year-old man, in retirement, fell and now needs a hip replacement. A 30 year-old man also needs one so that he can go back to work as a roofer (he fell off the roof). Would a socialized medical system ration the care to provide it to the one who can put most back into the economy? IT seems to me that for rationing to work, society must get the most economic benefit.

Offically rationing is based upon need. If I have a broken leg that is ok the way it is but yours will cause permanent damage if not reset today, you go first. In reality the system is an implicitly navigated one based upon ones ability to lobby the system (education and contacts) as well as economic considerations. Olympic athletes do not wait. We do have some private clinics in BC. These are used by athletes on national teams as well as pros, the wealthy and those covered by Workers Compensation Board or auto insurance companies. If waiting two months for an MRI will cost the insurance co. $6000 they will pay $1500 for the MRI tomorrow. The same is true for some surgeries.

[EBSB52 0]

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Canada has a "great" healthcare system, according to some Canadians statements here on DZ.com on more then a few occasions...

Reading about things like this makes me very glad to live in the US and simply pay insurance instead:

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=8fa9ad58-f9d3-4fcb-a9c7-a239583dce0b

How do you feel when you learn that 1/2 of the 1.5 million people who file for bankruptcy protection in the US every year do so because of overwelming medical bills. Then, how do you feel when 3/4 of those people had medical insurance? Medical insurance is as worthless as auto insurnace, they have such limits that they take care of boo-boos, but ignore major catastrophes.

Most of the rest of the world uses socialized medicine, we don't. Mostof the rest of the world recognozes the Iraq war as shit, we don't. Ya, they're wrong, we're right. They'll do a WWII Germany/Japan/Italy to us and "reajust" our thinking if we're not smart enough to do it for ourselves - hope we will.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Canada has a "great" healthcare system, according to some Canadians statements here on DZ.com on more then a few occasions...

Reading about things like this makes me very glad to live in the US and simply pay insurance instead:

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=8fa9ad58-f9d3-4fcb-a9c7-a239583dce0b

How do you feel when you learn that 1/2 of the 1.5 million people who file for bankruptcy protection in the US every year do so because of overwelming medical bills.

Define "overwhelming."

Oh, and by the way, I normally wouldn't mention it but since you like to pick on others about their spelling, Overwhelming is spelled with an "H"

[ryoder 1,590]

I used to share your opinion...until I spent a few years working in a hospital, and got a look at how things work, (or not), in the US healthcare system.

The US system of tying your healthcare insurance to your employment is bass-ackwards. Think about it: If you have a job, you have health insurance, but if you don't, then you're screwed. Now who can better afford to pay out of pocket: An employed person, or an un-employed person?

Hospitals write off huge amounts of unrecoverable debts incurred by people who can't pay. So where does that money come from? It comes from the people who can pay. That is, your insurance rates, and your out-of-pocket expenses are subsidizing it.

Another side-effect is that people without money avoid getting preventative medicine, and wait until a small problem becomes a big one, then they wind up in the emergency room with a much more serious, (and expensive), problem.

And one more issue: Hospitals employ clerical workers who wrangle with insurance companies to get as much money as possible. Insurance companies, (I also used to work for one), employ clerical workers who wrangle with hospitals to pay as little as possible. And where does the money come from to pay these salaries? From your healthcare dollars. I can think of better ways to spend it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[EBSB52 0]

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Canada has a "great" healthcare system, according to some Canadians statements here on DZ.com on more then a few occasions...

Reading about things like this makes me very glad to live in the US and simply pay insurance instead:

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=8fa9ad58-f9d3-4fcb-a9c7-a239583dce0b

How do you feel when you learn that 1/2 of the 1.5 million people who file for bankruptcy protection in the US every year do so because of overwelming medical bills.

Define "overwhelming."

Oh, and by the way, I normally wouldn't mention it but since you like to pick on others about their spelling, Overwhelming is spelled with an "H"

Oh Jebus. SO you imported that crap from another thread? Pretty desperate. If I cared what you just wrote I would bother to go get my post to shpw you it's not a spelling issue, but an issue a given poster wrote Ebonically - just had a laugh about it. Kennedy tried to make me the spelling Nazi, but I debunked that - go read the thread and educate yourself.

As for overwhelming, that's subjective. I guess it depends upon your income and the amount of the bills. Either way, overwhelming enough for people to consider filing for BK and for the courts to dismis the debts.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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As for overwhelming, that's subjective. I guess it depends upon your income and the amount of the bills. Either way, overwhelming enough for people to consider filing for BK and for the courts to dismis the debts.

Some people file bankruptcy because they just don't want to be bothered with paying their bills and see BK as an easy way out. Hardly my definition of "overwhelming." I think the stats from the report you are refering to also states the average amount of medical bills at the time of filing the BK was about $12,000. I'm not going to rehash the thread, but I only bring it up because in leaving that part out, you are distorting the whole picture.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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A fellow poster to our boards (and a legendary dude) is undergoing a surgery today. The doctor found the reason two days ago. He didn't have to wait 45 days for the surgery, hoping the disease wouldn't spread too far in the interim.

He would have got that treatment just as fast under a social health care system. The waiting lists are as much about triage as anything else - thus urgent ops. such as that go first knocking less urgent ops back on the time scale.

[EBSB52 0]

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As for overwhelming, that's subjective. I guess it depends upon your income and the amount of the bills. Either way, overwhelming enough for people to consider filing for BK and for the courts to dismis the debts.

Some people file bankruptcy because they just don't want to be bothered with paying their bills and see BK as an easy way out. Hardly my definition of "overwhelming." I think the stats from the report you are refering to also states the average amount of medical bills at the time of filing the BK was about $12,000. I'm not going to rehash the thread, but I only bring it up because in leaving that part out, you are distorting the whole picture.

I had read something about that, but in order for you to not disort the thread you would need to back up and explain how 75% of those that filed for BK had medical insurance..... now can we bitch about a few more % in income taxes?

Agin, if you are unemployed or retired, is 12k a lot of money? It would be nice to read a demographic on the income of those that BK'd on what amount of debt. Is it possilble those that had 12k medical debt and BK'd also had other debt like unsecured bedt and lawsuits? Again, the whole report as it was related by the media was incomplete.

Regardless of the source, essentially stop chapter7 for everyone and allowing coprorate BK's in the trillions is good ole American Fascism.

[EBSB52 0]

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A fellow poster to our boards (and a legendary dude) is undergoing a surgery today. The doctor found the reason two days ago. He didn't have to wait 45 days for the surgery, hoping the disease wouldn't spread too far in the interim.

He would have got that treatment just as fast under a social health care system. The waiting lists are as much about triage as anything else - thus urgent ops. such as that go first knocking less urgent ops back on the time scale.

Sure, a triage exists all the way in the medical system, whether in the ER or in scheduled surgery.

The myth about massive problems in the Canadian social healthcare system is, I believe, crap. It's the conservative American way to continue to reject a compassionate system and maintain a system of privillege. Capitalists fear helping poor people and want to make exclusive this country supposedly based upon, "Give us your poor, your weak...."

[Gravitymaster 0]

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As for overwhelming, that's subjective. I guess it depends upon your income and the amount of the bills. Either way, overwhelming enough for people to consider filing for BK and for the courts to dismis the debts.

Some people file bankruptcy because they just don't want to be bothered with paying their bills and see BK as an easy way out. Hardly my definition of "overwhelming." I think the stats from the report you are refering to also states the average amount of medical bills at the time of filing the BK was about $12,000. I'm not going to rehash the thread, but I only bring it up because in leaving that part out, you are distorting the whole picture.

I had read something about that, but in order for you to not disort the thread you would need to back up and explain how 75% of those that filed for BK had medical insurance..... now can we bitch about a few more % in income taxes?

Agin, if you are unemployed or retired, is 12k a lot of money? It would be nice to read a demographic on the income of those that BK'd on what amount of debt. Is it possilble those that had 12k medical debt and BK'd also had other debt like unsecured bedt and lawsuits? Again, the whole report as it was related by the media was incomplete.

Regardless of the source, essentially stop chapter7 for everyone and allowing coprorate BK's in the trillions is good ole American Fascism.

I completely disagree. The main reason people find themselves in poor financial condition is because we have become a society that mostly lives beyond our means and saves very little. The first thing you hear people say when asked what they would do if they came into a large sum of money is what they would spend it on. How many times do you here someone say they are going to invest it into stocks and bonds? Hell, the whole reason we need Social Security is because people refuse to save for their retirement. I think I read somewhere that the average American is 2 paychecks away from being homeless. And don't even get me started on how the Libs take advantage of this an use it to push an agenda.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The main reason people find themselves in poor financial condition is because we have become a society that mostly lives beyond our means and saves very little. The first thing you hear people say when asked what they would do if they came into a large sum of money is what they would spend it on. How many times do you here someone say they are going to invest it into stocks and bonds? Hell, the whole reason we need Social Security is because people refuse to save for their retirement. I think I read somewhere that the average American is 2 paychecks away from being homeless.

Wow I actually agree with GM on something. But then again, I am a conservative as far as economics are concerned. Another problem of ours is that the corporate world has decided to out source jobs to the cheapest market. But a consumer society is largely to blame for the poor financial situation many people find themselves in.

Now what does this have to do with Canada's healthcare system?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[IanHarrop 43]

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The myth about massive problems in the Canadian social healthcare system is, I believe, crap. It's the conservative American way to continue to reject a compassionate system and maintain a system of privillege.

I agree with this statement to a point but I will be the first to say that the Canadian healthcare system is not perfect. Its biggest issue is, in my opinion, availability of care.

On the other hand one can search the forums of dz.com and find numerous instances of people (Americans) needing help to pay medical bills.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[lawrocket 3]

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I agree with this statement to a point but I will be the first to say that the Canadian healthcare system is not perfect. Its biggest issue is, in my opinion, availability of care.

On the other hand one can search the forums of dz.com and find numerous instances of people (Americans) needing help to pay medical bills.

I think the closest thing to a socialized medicine system that we have in the US is Kaiser. Care is rationed to the point where state laws have been passed regarding the speed and time it takes to get care and referrals.

People don't regularly bitch about the costs of Kaiser, though it ain't cheap. People DO bitch about the availability of services and the bureacratic runarounds they get from it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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People don't regularly bitch about the costs of Kaiser, though it ain't cheap. People DO bitch about the availability of services and the bureacratic runarounds they get from it.

And the backward care. In college when the student hospital diagnosed my appendicitus, I was covered by Prudential and by Kaiser. The Doc was pretty adament that I'd be better off going to Alta Bates via Prudential rather than Oakland Kaiser. Unless I had just been shot.

In a more severe case, my mom was in a cast for 8 months in 1990 after a tib/fib break. Even now it still affects her ability to run because it was never set correctly. Had she gone to UCLA's hospital instead, she'd have been walking in 8 weeks.

The funny thing is that Kaiser should be easier than most insurance plans, since the hospital and the insurer are the same entity.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Most of the rest of the world uses socialized medicine, we don't. Mostof the rest of the world recognozes the Iraq war as shit, we don't. Ya, they're wrong, we're right. They'll do a WWII Germany/Japan/Italy to us and "reajust" our thinking if we're not smart enough to do it for ourselves - hope we will.

Massive thread drift, but you do realize there's not a chance in hell they can do a "WWII" anything to us, right?