sinker 0 #176 April 8, 2005 Quoteby this definition we have an astounding number of children who were born, not from 'Intercourse' but from a base physical act common to all species with gender determinators, the majority of who's births have little to do with "giving onself to another in the deepest way possible' and more to do with simple lust. thanks for stating the obvious. and yes, it's quite sad, that many people are the product of lust and not from an act of mutual self-donation between spouses. Quoteeven 'the church' should recognize that there is far more to "giving onself" than the simple physical act that results in pregnancy. The Church does indeed recognize this. Not quite sure what your point is. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #177 April 8, 2005 gotcha thanks for clarifying. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #178 April 8, 2005 QuoteRape, on the other hand is an act of aggression only and the victim of the rape has the right to repel the aggression before the act of rape, during rape and also the right to expel or block the continuation of the act in the form of the aggressor's sperm still invading her body. Good grief. Am I to understand that you're saying that the rape victim has control over her situation while her aggressor violates her? So ultimately it's the woman's fault because she did not exercise her right to repel the rape? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #179 April 8, 2005 QuoteThere are people who have said they thing the religious hospital should *give* the pill. Who said that? If they did they we not in tune with what the bills says. The bill is not enforcing hospitals to *give* the rape victims the pill. It's about informing the victims of their medical options. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #180 April 8, 2005 QuoteWho said that? If they did they we not in tune with what the bills says. The bill is not enforcing hospitals to *give* the rape victims the pill. It's about informing the victims of their medical options. Here is one. Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1577248#1577248 The issue is not whether they will provide a prescription for this medication (which I also believe they should do if she desires it), but whether they will inform a woman who was raped that it is an option for her. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #181 April 8, 2005 Did anybody already ask this: What if it's a 12-year-old girl who was raped? Very young girls can be capable of conceiving. Should a 12-year-old be made to endure rape AND pregnancy and labor, when a simple pill could be given to prevent the second half of that pain? Hasn't she been through enough? ???? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #182 April 8, 2005 QuoteDid anybody already ask this: What if it's a 12-year-old girl who was raped? Very young girls can be capable of conceiving. Should a 12-year-old be made to endure rape AND pregnancy and labor, when a simple pill could be given to prevent the second half of that pain? Hasn't she been through enough? ???? No, if God didn't want her to be a parent, he wouldn't have allowed her to be raped. [/sarcasm]This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #183 April 8, 2005 sorry man, but you've COMPLETELY misunderstood what I said. What I said is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE. in many situations the woman has NO control over the situation and no physical means to try and repel this aggression, UNTIL she is receiving medical treatement, in the form of trying to PREVENT possible conception. please try to read more critically. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #184 April 8, 2005 QuoteDid anybody already ask this: What if it's a 12-year-old girl who was raped? Very young girls can be capable of conceiving. Should a 12-year-old be made to endure rape AND pregnancy and labor, when a simple pill could be given to prevent the second half of that pain? Hasn't she been through enough? ???? No, but should you force a Dr or hospital that disagrees with abortion to provide it? Anyone that wants an abortion can still get one, just not at a religious hospital."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #185 April 8, 2005 QuoteNo, but should you force a Dr or hospital that disagrees with abortion to provide it? Ron, that's not what this thread is about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #186 April 8, 2005 a simple pill could be given ...*** that's right folks, a "simple pill" will just make it ALL better... Unfortunately, such a solution is a grossly inadequate one. Catholic hospitals are supposed to believe that life begins at conception and their medical practices are supposed to be consistent w/ that belief. In your scenario of a 12 year old being raped and possibly conceiving a child, as horrific as it is, the circumstances of the crime (happening to a 12 year old) does not dictate the course of action in terms of "treatment" given. In fact, it's the opposite. If conception might have occurred, an abortifacient should not be given. However, attempts should be made to PREVENT conception. Yes, it will be very difficult for a 12 year old to deal with, should she become pregnant and carry the child. However, you would be wrong in thinking that such a "punishment" as having to bear a child at that age will have severe and long-lasting scars. Yes, it is possible that it could. However, given the proper psychological treatment, there is NO reason why the 12 year old could not continue to mature and become a very well adjusted, healthy adult. To think otherwise is to have a pretty negative view of the capabilities of the human soul. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #187 April 8, 2005 QuoteRon, that's not what this thread is about. Dude its an answer to a question: QuoteWhat if it's a 12-year-old girl who was raped? Very young girls can be capable of conceiving. Should a 12-year-old be made to endure rape AND pregnancy and labor, when a simple pill could be given to prevent the second half of that pain? Hasn't she been through enough? If you want abortion advice or procedures DON'T GO TO A FUCKING RELIGIOUS HOSPITAL. Don't expect a RELIGIOUS HOSPITAL to advise on abortion or perform them, or perscribe the damn Morning after pill. Don't try to make them. If a person wants an abortion (I don't care WHY) they can go get one at many places in the US. DON'T EXPECT OR TRY TO MAKE A PLACE FOUNDED ON RELIGION TO ENCOURAGE OR DO THE PROCEDURE. It is not your right to try and make them. It is not their right to stop you from getting one. This is the thing that kills me about "Pro-Choice" people....They are so damn forcefull about trying to make that choice for others. You want PRO choice, how about not forcing others into what you want? If you want to get an abortion go fucking get one. But don't expect a CHURCH to say its a good idea. HOW IS THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND? How many people are so stupid that they can't look "Abortion" up in the damn dictonary? So even if they don't get that from a RELIGIOUS Hospital, they can still do it. Why are you so damn persistant to tell a RELIGION what to do?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #188 April 8, 2005 QuoteDON'T GO TO A FUCKING RELIGIOUS HOSPITAL Too bad, you just got beaten within an inch of your life and raped, you got taken to the closest hospital, they saved your life, but it's a Catholic hospital. You didn't have a choice, in fact you couldn't voice your opinion because you were choking on your own blood. Now you've come to you could go to another hospital but you don't know to make that choice as no one's told you there is such a thing as a contraceptive morning after pill. QuoteDON'T EXPECT OR TRY TO MAKE A PLACE FOUNDED ON RELIGION TO ENCOURAGE OR DO THE PROCEDURE. This bill does not do that. It wants everyone to tell vulnerable people that there is such a thing as the contraceptive morning after pill. It does not want to make them "encourage or do the procedure". QuoteBut don't expect a CHURCH to say its a good idea. The bill doesn't expect the church to say it's a good idea - in fact it wants exactly the opposite. The bill wanted Catholic hospitals to include information about how the morning after pill is abortion and thus against the Catholic cread - ie the bill wanted the church to say it's a bad idea. QuoteHow many people are so stupid that they can't look "Abortion" up in the damn dictonary? Probably a good deal more than the number who think it's not possible to get pregnant on the first go, or who think washing themselves out with coke works. Plenty of those around. QuoteWhy are you so damn persistant to tell a RELIGION what to do? Me? I'm not. I'm just having a conversation on the internet. The bill? It's asking ALL institutions to make sure they tell people about the existence of a medical treatment so that the patient themselves can use their own religion to decide what they're going to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #189 April 8, 2005 This has gotten off track. The purpose of the bill was to require physicians to _inform_ rape victims of all their options. Nothing more. Some hospitals have level 1 trauma centers, most don't. Some don't have ERs at all. Some provide services that others do not and that is fine. The bill does not suggest that a hospital will be required to provide a service that it either can't or does not desire to provide. Only that the physicians inform the patients of all their options. They may decide for themselves to seek treatment elsewhere or not. Its not about religion. Its about minimum standards of care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #190 April 8, 2005 I'm more Pro-Life than I am Pro-Choice, just FYI. But like Nightingale said, in the case of a violent rape and an ambulance ride, you don't have a choice where you're taken. And all they have to do is INFORM. I still maintain that Plan B is not an abortion, but beyond that, they don't even have to give it to her. Just tell the 12-year-old child that it's an option. Make her go somewhere else to get it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #191 April 8, 2005 QuoteI'm more Pro-Life than I am Pro-Choice, just FYI. But like Nightingale said, in the case of a violent rape and an ambulance ride, you don't have a choice where you're taken. And all they have to do is INFORM. I still maintain that Plan B is not an abortion, but beyond that, they don't even have to give it to her. Just tell the 12-year-old child that it's an option. Make her go somewhere else to get it. well, the more I think about this, the more I think that it really is only incumbant on a Catholic facility to say that as a result of the rape she may be pregnant but that this facility will not/can not provide any "service" to terminate the pregnancy if conception occurred. The facility then only has to say that if such "service" is desired, the person would have to go elsewhere. To force, by law, a Catholic facility to spell out what the options are for terminating a possible pregnancy IS in opposition to the beliefs of the facility. It's like saying, "You want to die? Well, we can't help you HERE, but Dr. Kevorkian down the street offers lethal injection. Here's how it works and here is his card." It doesn't make sense to expect a Catholic facility to act, through providing information, in a manner that violates it's beliefs. By the way, why do you maintain that plan B is not abortion? The very definition of "altering the lining of the uterus to prevent implantation" IS abortifacience. You can only maintain that plan B is not abortion under two circumstances: 1. It prevents fertilization from occurring, which at this point is very difficult to tell if it's mechanism of aciton in any application is fert. prevention OR implantation prevention. 2. You do not believe that life begins at conception. But to drag that argument up is another topic... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #192 April 8, 2005 QuoteToo bad, you just got beaten within an inch of your life and raped, you got taken to the closest hospital, they saved your life, but it's a Catholic hospital So? when you get discharged go down the street and have the baby vacumed out. Quote You didn't have a choice, in fact you couldn't voice your opinion because you were choking on your own blood. Now you've come to you could go to another hospital but you don't know to make that choice as no one's told you there is such a thing as a contraceptive morning after pill. You are telling me that people don't know about ABORTION? Forget the damn pill, a person can still get a good old fashin' vacum the fetus out abortion all day long. QuoteThis bill does not do that. It wants everyone to tell vulnerable people that there is such a thing as the contraceptive morning after pill. It does not want to make them "encourage or do the procedure". The very CONCEPT of the pill is against the religion. Yet you want to force them into something YOU wnat them to do? Hows that for PRO choice? QuoteThe bill doesn't expect the church to say it's a good idea - in fact it wants exactly the opposite. The bill wanted Catholic hospitals to include information about how the morning after pill is abortion and thus against the Catholic cread - ie the bill wanted the church to say it's a bad idea. And that is the CHURCH'S RIGHT!!!!! The Church is trying to do a good thing, but its not enough for you. They must also go against the very core beliefs that made them want to help others to make you happy. QuoteProbably a good deal more than the number who think it's not possible to get pregnant on the first go, or who think washing themselves out with coke works. Plenty of those around. And that is somehow the Churchs fault? Stupid people are everywhere. You want a Church to break its own core beliefs for a few really stupid peole that seem to have lived in a vacum for the past 30 years. Quote The bill? It's asking ALL institutions to make sure they tell people about the existence of a medical treatment so that the patient themselves can use their own religion to decide what they're going to do. And it is trying to force one religion to go against its core beliefs. How much ground do you have to give to make liberals happy? We already have covered how some on this thread want the hospital to give the damn pill. Next they will want the hospital to GIVE abortions... The hospital should not be forced to do anything....Anymore than a woman should be forced to have a child they don't want."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #193 April 8, 2005 QuoteIts not about religion. Its about minimum standards of care. you're missing the point. catholic facilities maintain that providing information that could result in abortion is NOT PART OF any standard of care, but just the opposite. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #194 April 8, 2005 QuoteThe bill does not suggest that a hospital will be required to provide a service that it either can't or does not desire to provide. Only that the physicians inform the patients of all their options. They may decide for themselves to seek treatment elsewhere or not. Its not about religion. Its about minimum standards of care. The bill is telling a religious hospital that they have to tell someone how to take a babies life....A directive directly against the Religions core beliefs. The person can get the information form someplace other than a church."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #195 April 8, 2005 QuoteBut like Nightingale said, in the case of a violent rape and an ambulance ride, you don't have a choice where you're taken. You can get an abortion someplace else. You can get the info that an abortion is available from someone else... How stupid do you have to be to NOT know you can get an abortion? QuoteAnd all they have to do is INFORM. I still maintain that Plan B is not an abortion, but beyond that, they don't even have to give it to her. Just tell the 12-year-old child that it's an option. Make her go somewhere else to get it. They can also get that information from...Oh I don't know HER PARENTS!!!!"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #196 April 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteIts not about religion. Its about minimum standards of care. you're missing the point. catholic facilities maintain that providing information that could result in abortion is NOT PART OF any standard of care, but just the opposite. Actually, you are missing the point because you can't see beyond your personal religious beliefs. When the state medical board turns into the catholic church medical board, I will agree with you. Until that happens, minimum standards of medical care will continue to be decided by the state medical board through the residents of the state. This bill is the will of the people and it will eventually get passed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #197 April 8, 2005 Quote How stupid do you have to be to NOT know you can get an abortion? You understimate the number of stupid people in this country. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #198 April 8, 2005 QuoteSo? when you get discharged go down the street and have the baby vacumed out. The morning after pill is legally a contraceptive, not an abortive. Now I know there are arguments about that, but for some people that may well be an important distinction. QuoteYou are telling me that people don't know about ABORTION? Forget the damn pill, a person can still get a good old fashin' vacum the fetus out abortion all day long. As above. QuoteThe very CONCEPT of the pill is against the religion. Yet you want to force them into something YOU wnat them to do? No, taking the pill is against the religion as is providing the pill. The bill does not ask them to do that. The possession of knowledge is not against the religion. Nor is passing knowledge from one person to another. QuoteThey must also go against the very core beliefs that made them want to help others to make you happy. No, their core belief is don't take the pill, not don't know about the pill. The distinction is very important. Knowledge does not mean use. QuoteYou want a Church to break its own core beliefs for a few really stupid peole that seem to have lived in a vacum for the past 30 years. No, not their core beliefs. The Church does not believe that the passage of information is evil. Stupid people are those who the Church and hospitals seek to help the most, irrespective of who's fault their stupidity is. QuoteAnd it is trying to force one religion to go against its core beliefs. No it's not. The church does not believe that the passage of knowledge is evil. QuoteHow much ground do you have to give to make liberals happy? I don't want to make the liberals happy. I don't want anyone to do anything that is against their religion. I just don't believe the passage of knowledge from one person to another is mandated against in the Catholic doctorine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #199 April 8, 2005 Quote The bill is telling a religious hospital that they have to tell someone how to take a babies life....A directive directly against the Religions core beliefs. Yes, because the hospital is regulated by the state, not the church. QuoteThe person can get the information form someplace other than a church. Like a hospital? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #200 April 8, 2005 QuoteThe morning after pill is legally a contraceptive, not an abortive. Now I know there are arguments about that, but for some people that may well be an important distinction. It is the same thing. If you took the pill BEFORE having sex it is a contraceptive. QuoteNo, taking the pill is against the religion as is providing the pill. Wrong. Telling someone how to have one is also against the religion. QuoteNo, their core belief is don't take the pill, not don't know about the pill. The distinction is very important. Knowledge does not mean use. Sharing that knowledge is against the core. QuoteI don't want to make the liberals happy. I don't want anyone to do anything that is against their religion sure you do...Its what we have been talking about."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
