Female rape victims in CO should stay away from Catholic Hospitals

[justinb138 0]

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I think we're on the same page here. Stating the fact that an option exists is different that helping to facilitate the obtaining of that option.

Yep.

[rushmc 23]

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Forcing the doctor to giving information related to something they consider imoral is imoral in and of itself IMO.

Immoral in their mind or not, it's their job.

Any doctor that is going to deny their patient information because of their own religious beliefs shouldn't be a doctor.

OH, I understand. One can live by their own morals unles you disagree with those very morals.
Then you ask the government to enforce "your" morals on those that don't agree with you.

Makes normal liberal sence to me

What the hell are you talking about?

What don't you understand. If you don't agree with my position make a law the forces me to comply.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Shotgun 1]

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The morning after pill is not emergency medical care... would anyone go to a church (especially catholic) organization and expect to get info on birth control? That seems like a no brainer to me.

I am guessing that anyone who lives in the US and does not already know that the morning after pill exists (without a doctor telling them about it), may also not know enough to realize that a Catholic doctor might not tell them everything they need to know about birth control.

Personally, I don't think a doctor should be forced to tell a woman about the morning after pill if they feel that strongly against it. (I mean, abortion IS a serious moral question that there is no basic answer to.) But I do think the doctor should at least be required to tell the woman that there ARE other options available elsewhere.

[Muenkel 0]

I interrupt this program for a brief hijack:

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Muenkel: Hey Chris! Hope you and your head are well.

I'm still in the healing process but doing significantly better. My main battles at this time are chronic headaches and some amnesia. I do remember though the wonderful generosity and hospitality you and Lori extended to Michele and I. I have very fond memories of that weekend.

Please give my best to your family. Monica must be quite an active little girl about now.
Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[Ron 10]

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I think that a doctor who uses his/her position of power to attempt to steer patients away from procedures that they disagree with morally is wrong.

How is it hard to understand that a Dr at a RELIGIOUS hospital will see abortion as wrong?

Dr's take the Hippocratic Oath. There are two versions this is the new one written in 1964:

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Hippocratic Oath -- Modern Version

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

The classic one by Hippocrates

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I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

(Some versions have "First do no harm" here, others do not.) I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

What part of "I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."

Or "Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death...it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God."

Is hard to understand?

At a religious hospital they should be free to not perscribe a medicine that will kill even if you ask for it.

Don't like it, go to the pagan hospital down the street.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jdhill 0]

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I am guessing that anyone who lives in the US and does not already know that the morning after pill exists (without a doctor telling them about it), may also not know enough to realize that a Catholic doctor might not tell them everything they need to know about birth control.

If thats the case, said person has bigger problems...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[sinker 0]

continuing the hijack...

thanks for the kind words! monica is indeed very active. and, our fourth child is as well! Cecilia Therese was born 8 weeks ago. details will come in a pm...

we now return to this previously heated debate...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

you GO, RON!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Shotgun 1]

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What part of "I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy."

I don't think many doctors take the classic oath anymore.

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Or "Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death...it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God."

This could be taken either way. Withholding information from a patient could be taken as playing at God (IMO).

[justinb138 0]

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Any doctor that is going to deny their patient information because of their own religious beliefs shouldn't be a doctor.

OH, I understand. One can live by their own morals unles you disagree with those very morals.
Then you ask the government to enforce "your" morals on those that don't agree with you.

Makes normal liberal sence to me

What the hell are you talking about?

[Ron 10]

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I don't think many doctors take the classic oath anymore.

OK...But "Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death...it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God"

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This could be taken either way. Withholding information from a patient could be taken as playing at God

???? God (If you believe in him) gives and takes life. This section of the oath does not say anything about keeping secrets.

No offense but that is a weak argument.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Of course this is just my opinion. But CO female rape victims really should avoid being going to a Catholic Hospitals after they have been raped. Unless of course they too believe in "Life at all Cost". Then in that case, well I guess they should be happy that God meant for them to be raped and gone through their own personal hell because God obviously wanted this to happen. Nice guy isn't he?

The bible is fiction. Deal with it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rushmc 23]

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Any doctor that is going to deny their patient information because of their own religious beliefs shouldn't be a doctor.

OH, I understand. One can live by their own morals unles you disagree with those very morals.
Then you ask the government to enforce "your" morals on those that don't agree with you.

Makes normal liberal sence to me

What the hell are you talking about?

What don't you understand. If you don't agree with my position make a law the forces me to comply.

[rushmc 23]

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Of course this is just my opinion. But CO female rape victims really should avoid being going to a Catholic Hospitals after they have been raped. Unless of course they too believe in "Life at all Cost". Then in that case, well I guess they should be happy that God meant for them to be raped and gone through their own personal hell because God obviously wanted this to happen. Nice guy isn't he?
This is a convoluted thought process at best
The bible is fiction. Deal with it.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Shotgun 1]

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God (If you believe in him) gives and takes life.

Ok, then any doctor who adheres to that should also not do anything to help a woman get pregnant if she is having trouble conceiving. That too would be interfering with God's job. And then technically they shouldn't do anything to help someone who is dying either because that was obviously God's plan as well.

[sinker 0]

dude, you've got some SERIOUS issues w/ God and religion. hope you get those taken care of some time. I know a good Catholic counseling center I could refer you to... just kidding, sorry.

perhaps your BIGGEST flaw in what you just posted is that God would WILL someone to get raped. That is just sick and twisted! God would never will that. He allows it, unfortunately, b/c He is a God who gave free will. That way, men and women could CHOOSE to return to Him His gift of life and love. But, inherent in that gift of choice is the possibility that someone can CHOOSE to do wrong. That is most unfortunate, and in the case of rape, devestatingly tragic.

It's up to us to work to create a better society where people don't even think of raping others. It's up to us to do all we can to help those who have been raped.

Don't blame God b/c bad things happen to people. But you better believe that He sure can turn bad things into good.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

shotgun, do you believe it is better to exist than to not exist?

the general belief is that it is better to exist than to not, and that is why it is not a violation of the Hipocratic Oath to assist medically w/ child conception. As far as where death is concerned, it's natural to die and unnatural to go through constant, extreme measures to be kep alive. It's just as unnatural to withhold basic life sustaining treatment b/c one's quality of life isn't what you think it should be. (oh lord, here we go again...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[justinb138 0]

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The key here is what is relavant to you. You want the doctors or hopital to comform to your beliefs!!!!!

If the won't, because they disagree, you would make a law and force them.

Simple isn't it?

Relavent to me? My belief is that a doctor should do his job, regardless of his religion. Withholding information is not doing his job.

When a doctor withholds information about treatment options from a patient because of his religion, he is fucking with other people's lives. In that case the doctor is essentially forcing his beliefs on that patient.

If he won't provide a patient with information about all their options (even if they won't provide the options or treatment) he needs to find another job.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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dude, you've got some SERIOUS issues w/ God and religion.

It's called being agnostic. The universe, a possible creator and how we came to be is beyond my comprehension. But rest assured, there is no way in hell (pardon the pun) that I'm going to believe some ficticious book written and translated eons ago by humans as the truth. If someone attempted to introduce the bible in today's world they would be laughed at and likely thrown in a mental institution.

The bible is fiction, deal with it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[wmw999 2,589]

Would we consider it to be unethical for a Jehovah's Witness doctor or facility to withold information about blood transfusion?

For instance -- getting platelet transfusions in the case of some childhood cancers. There are other treatments. Is it OK to withold from the parents the option of platelet transfusions (i.e. don't even tell them that it exists, and is something that some other hospital can do?)

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sinker 0]

you know, I don't have any problem w/ your agnosticism. but I have a very big problem with your mockery and biting comments. it'd be nice if you lightened your tone a bit. perhaps you wouldn't sound so offensive.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[justinb138 0]

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Would we consider it to be unethical for a Jehovah's Witness doctor or facility to withold information about blood transfusion?

I believe it is unethical to withhold information from a patient because of one's religious beliefs. That would be putting one's religious beliefs ahead of the welfare/health of the patient, which doctors shouldn't do.

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For instance -- getting platelet transfusions in the case of some childhood cancers. There are other treatments. Is it OK to withold from the parents the option of platelet transfusions?

Wendy W.

I wouldn't think so.

I don't have any problem with a doctor/hospital refusing to provide a treatment with which they do not agree.

I have a problem with a doctor withholding information about treatments they don't agree with because of their own religious beliefs.

[Shotgun 1]

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shotgun, do you believe it is better to exist than to not exist?

My response to Ron was just to show that what is said in the oath can be taken in different ways.

But to answer your question... I don't know what it's like to not exist... So I can't actually answer your question.

[wmw999 2,589]

You're right -- I worded that poorly.

I'll go fix it.

Wendy

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sinker 0]

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Would we consider it to be unethical for a Jehovah's Witness doctor or facility to withold information about blood transfusion?

For instance -- getting platelet transfusions in the case of some childhood cancers. There are other treatments. Is it OK to withold from the parents the option of platelet transfusions?

Wendy W.

yeah, i'd say it was about as equally unethical to withhold information on such treatments. i think in your scenario, Wendy, a J.W. doc simply stating that there are other options that were not available at the J.H. facility would be honorable.

-the artist formerly known as sinker