Female rape victims in CO should stay away from Catholic Hospitals

[Muenkel 0]

Michael!!! Welcome back old friend.

Thank you for having the gift to express what I believe so eloquently.

A breath of fresh air.
Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[justinb138 0]

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Forcing the doctor to giving information related to something they consider imoral is imoral in and of itself IMO.

Immoral in their mind or not, it's their job.

Any doctor that is going to deny their patient information because of their own religious beliefs shouldn't be a doctor.

[Shotgun 1]

My insurance company gives me a list of doctors to choose from that includes their name, where they are located, what they specialize in, what degree(s) they have and where they graduated, their gender, and which languages they speak. When I hear news such as this, it makes me wonder if they should add religious beliefs to that list so that I can avoid a situation where "God" might interfere with the medical treatment I receive.

[kelel01 1]

That would be fine with me. No one's saying that they have to dispense the drug or perform an abortion, but a doctor's duty is to INFORM.

[billvon 3,119]

>Forcing the doctor to giving information related to something they
>consider imoral is imoral in and of itself IMO.

Would you be OK with a volunteer US marine who refused to serve during wartime because war was against his beliefs?

A doctor's job is to provide good care for his or her patients, even if they have moral problems with that care. If they have such severe moral problems that they cannot help their patients, then they have the option of choosing a line of work where that is not an issue.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I would surely provide literature to the patient, as part of the informed consent process, what the risks of birth control are in the context of a sexually active female.

We're NOT talking about sexually active females here. We are talking about rape victims.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sinker 0]

Shotgun: I wholeheartedly agree with what you said, and I think that is a GREAT idea! Religious affiliation should totally be listed.

Muenkel: Hey Chris! Hope you and your head are well.

As far as informing patients, that is where it starts to get a little dicey. As far as I understand, a doctor professing to adhere to the tenents of Catholicism could not, in good conscience, say to a woman, hey we can't give you an abortifacient at this facility, but you can go across town to Hospital so and so and get it there. However, I think the doctor would HAVE to say to the woman that she may become pregnant as a result of the rape. If the woman expressed an interest in receiving an abortifacient, the doctor would have to say it could not be given at the Catholic facility but there are others in town that could offer it.

Here is the clincher... to NOT spell out for the woman where/what/how of aborting the product of rape is NOT negligent of the doctor, since pregnancy is not a medical condition and does not require emergency medical treatment.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm splitting hairs here... maybe I need to consult some of my Catholic doctor friends here in town.

I'm enjoying the input on this thread.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[jdhill 0]

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Immoral in their mind or not, it's their job.

Any doctor that is going to deny their patient information because of their own religious beliefs shouldn't be a doctor.

But is also the belief of the place they work for, not just their own... maybe that is why they chose to work there... and the place the patient in question chose to go... if you go to a chatloic hospital, you should understand that you are going to get the catholic line...

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[sinker 0]

I was specifically addressing a question posed to me in an earlier post of this thread about prescribing birth control as a pharmacist. Please re-read my post and the one from kele...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

bill:

you are doing the very thing you are accusing Catholic doctors of doing (or not doing), which is applying what YOU believe to be "good care" to this situation. The medical industry is largely divided on this issue and there is no one gold standard of care here. There are plenty of doctors who are not necessarily Catholic who think that giving an abortifacient is BAD care. You saying they should get a new job is simply ignorant.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[jdhill 0]

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Which means that you cannot pass any laws, fund any program, allow any religious use of state monies etc unless those laws/programs/monies are available to all.

Does the bill in question do any of these things? No. Would the bill in question step on the "free exercise" clause, quite possibly...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[sinker 0]

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Would you be OK with a volunteer US marine who refused to serve during wartime because war was against his beliefs?

the very nature of being a marine is to protect/defend/fight. i have a hard time believing that anyone would JOIN the marines if they already had a belief that war was wrong. if they came to a belief that war was wrong after they joined the marines, my belief is that they are obligated to act according to their informed conscience. however, the military still can punish that person for their deriliction.

your example here doesn't apply bill, b/c it is NOT implicit in the mission and nature of a doctor to materially participate in the killing of human life. In fact, many doctors believe that such a practice is diametrically opposed to the profession of a physician.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,119]

>There are plenty of doctors who are not necessarily Catholic who
> think that giving an abortifacient is BAD care.

That's fine; inform their patients that they consider it bad care.

>You saying they should get a new job is simply ignorant.

I think that a doctor who uses his/her position of power to attempt to steer patients away from procedures that they disagree with morally is wrong. You can disagree; that's fine. I am glad most of the doctors I know put the care of their patients above their moral qualms.

[justinb138 0]

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you are doing the very thing you are accusing Catholic doctors of doing (or not doing), which is applying what YOU believe to be "good care" to this situation.

I believe that providing patients with information relavent to their condition/situation is generally regarded as good care by the majority of the medical community, not just Bill's opinion.

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The medical industry is largely divided on this issue and there is no one gold standard of care here. There are plenty of doctors who are not necessarily Catholic who think that giving an abortifacient is BAD care.

Regardless of what the doctor thinks is good or bad, the patient should be informed of their options. After all, the patient will be making the decision (In most cases).

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You saying they should get a new job is simply ignorant.

No it isn't.

[sinker 0]

what I'm saying is NOT putting individual moral qualms ABOVE patient care! doctors who act as I am saying Catholic doctors SHOULD act are TRULY putting patient care first, given what they believe to be true about human life and the victimization of potentially TWO people due to rape. I can't for the life of me think why you cannot or will not see this. It's so frustrating that you go to the tired line of forcing one's morals on another! In the scenario we have been discussing, the doctor is not trying to coerce the rape victim to DO ANYTHING according to the doctor's beliefs. The doctor is simply NOT providing a "service" they believe to be HARMFUL to the woman.

People are always obligated to act according to their informed consciences!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[jdhill 0]

The title of your thread realy ought to be

"Female rape victims in CO should stay away from Catholic Hospitals if they are concerned about potential pregnancy"

The morning after pill is not emergency medical care... would anyone go to a church (especially catholic) organization and expect to get info on birth control? That seems like a no brainer to me.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[sinker 0]

Bill's statement is VERY ignorant. It is obvious to me that you haven't thought through the ramifications to the healthcare system if Bill's statement were enforced.

Regarding your statement of belief, nothing of what I've said contradicts you. Doctors should inform a rape victim of her injuries and potential pregnancy. But a doctor who holds, in this case, principles consistent w/ the Catholic Church, is only obligated to say that any procedure or drug administration that is explicitly for the purpose of aborting the product of rape cannot/will not be given at this Catholic facility. Implicit in that statement is that such services are available at non-Catholic medical institutions.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rushmc 23]

I agree

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sinker 0]

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The morning after pill is not emergency medical care... would anyone go to a church (especially catholic) organization and expect to get info on birth control? That seems like a no brainer to me.

well, unfortunately, many DO go to religiously affiliated medical institutions for birth control consultation AND abortion. The problem in part lies w/, in this case, many Catholic institutions who call themselves Catholic but do not adhere to the beliefs contained within that title. To me that is horrible hypocrisy. Also, there are people who simply don't KNOW what a particular religious institution believes. Again, it is incumbant on the institution to make it's beliefs --and medical practices that are influenced by those beliefs-- well known.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rushmc 23]

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Forcing the doctor to giving information related to something they consider imoral is imoral in and of itself IMO.

Immoral in their mind or not, it's their job.

Any doctor that is going to deny their patient information because of their own religious beliefs shouldn't be a doctor.

OH, I understand. One can live by their own morals unles you disagree with those very morals.
Then you ask the government to enforce "your" morals on those that don't agree with you.

Make normal liberal sence to me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[justinb138 0]

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Regarding your statement of belief, nothing of what I've said contradicts you. Doctors should inform a rape victim of her injuries and potential pregnancy. But a doctor who holds, in this case, principles consistent w/ the Catholic Church, is only obligated to say that any procedure or drug administration that is explicitly for the purpose of aborting the product of rape cannot/will not be given at this Catholic facility. Implicit in that statement is that such services are available at non-Catholic medical institutions.

I agree with you completely on that one. I understand not offering the option due to the religious beliefs of the hospital (in non-emergency situations). I would only have a problem with a doctor that refused to inform the patient that the option was available.

[sinker 0]

I think we're on the same page here. Stating the fact that an option exists is different that helping to facilitate the obtaining of that option.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rushmc 23]

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>Forcing the doctor to giving information related to something they
>consider imoral is imoral in and of itself IMO.

Would you be OK with a volunteer US marine who refused to serve during wartime because war was against his beliefs?

In an all voleteer army no, I would not be OK with that. (unless it is an order that should be lawfully disobeyed)

A doctor's job is to provide good care for his or her patients, even if they have moral problems with that care. If they have such severe moral problems that they cannot help their patients, then they have the option of choosing a line of work where that is not an issue.

[justinb138 0]

Quote

Quote

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Forcing the doctor to giving information related to something they consider imoral is imoral in and of itself IMO.

Immoral in their mind or not, it's their job.

Any doctor that is going to deny their patient information because of their own religious beliefs shouldn't be a doctor.

OH, I understand. One can live by their own morals unles you disagree with those very morals.
Then you ask the government to enforce "your" morals on those that don't agree with you.

Make normal liberal sence to me

What the hell are you talking about?

[sinker 0]

that's it in a nut-shell, isn't it!

no, this is me in a nut shell! help!! i'm trapped in a nut shell! How do I get out of this freakin nut shell!

-the artist formerly known as sinker