Female rape victims in CO should stay away from Catholic Hospitals

[ryoder 1,590]

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By vetoing the bill, he was ignoring seperation of church and state.

On the contrary, I'd say he was enforcing the idea of separation of church and state.

This bill would have forced a religeous facility to hand out information on a pill that they oppose on religeous grounds. By forcing them to hand it out, the government would have forced a religeous institution to ignore one of it's beliefs. THAT is a direct violation of the principle of separation.

The constitution does not say that there must be separation of Chuch and State. It does say:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

someone emailed me this, but did not reference the source, I apologize for not having that handy.

"The point of the amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here."

A rape victim needs to be informed of all of her options. I don't see how she is denied that simply because the hospital didn't tell her about it. Someone else can tell her. Planned Parenthood seems to be an advocate of the pill.

That said, I'm all for the Morning After Pill. I think it's a wise choice in the case of rape. But I don't think there should be a law requiring ME to tell you about it.

We are talking about a hospital, not a church. A church has the perfect right to tell attendees what it wants them to hear, and not tell them what it doesn't want them to hear.

The duty of a health professional, on the other hand, should be telling the patient full details about treatment options, and not be leaving out certain details due to personal bias. If a health professional can't put the interests of the patient first, then they need to find another line of work.

Another issue with the "morning-after" pill is that there is a very narrow window of opportunity to use it. If the rape victim learns about it too late, it is no longer an option.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,590]

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Owens under pressure from the Catholic church decided to veto this bill.

The Pope who just passed away, was against birth control for women. He was also against abortion, even for rape victims. Furthermore, he was against having women as priests.

And everyone seems to think he is some kind of hero...

Wow! There are two of us?!
I keep hearing non-stop news shows extoling of how "progressive" the pope was, but yet the church still opposes birth-control, and women still can't hold the same positions in the church as men. And they go on about how courageously he changed the world, yet I recall he opposed every use of military force proposed, and in every case, the leaders ignored him and used it anyway.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[rushmc 23]

While I agree with most of what you posted that doesn't change where and when government should get involved and try to mandate something like this!

People are always going to disagree on most issues but, here some are trying to use state government to force thier views on others. Not right IMO regardless of which side of the debate you are on.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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Those that do not believe want to force their way on the rest.

Yes we clearly are horrible people forcing our agenda when it comes to wanting to educate rape victims of their medical options.

You can over simplify all you want but that does not change the issue If you don't like some one's or some institutions position you want to legislate them to comply to your views. That is crazy.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[flyangel2 2]

I think what this boils down to is how each person perceives when life begins.

Some people believe that the second the sperm and egg met, life has begun. Hence taking the morning after pill would be an abortion.

I believe that every woman has the right to decided what to do, and without educating the woman of all her options, we are taking away her rights.

I grew up in a very strict Catholic house, went to Catholic school for 12 years, had to attend church every morning except Saturdays. The more I learned, the less I believed.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[JohnnyD 0]

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While I agree with most of what you posted that doesn't change where and when government should get involved and try to mandate something like this!

People are always going to disagree on most issues but, here some are trying to use state government to force thier views on others. Not right IMO regardless of which side of the debate you are on.

The public has a reliance on the medical profession, as they also do with other state licensed professionals. If a doctor knowingly withholds information from a patient because of their religious views, they are forcing their views on the patient. The bill was trying to stop that. It would have required physicians to inform the patient of all their medical options (which shouldn't be an issue in a perfect world), they can refer the patient to another doctor if they don't agree with the course of treatment.
The bill was specifically trying to prevent doctors from forcing their religious views on patients.
Religion and the practice of medicine under license of the state are two entirely separate things.

Edit: I'll keep going
A doctor is only allowed to practice medicine at the will of the state in which he/she is licensed. That license can be revoked by the state medical board. It is a sad day when a law is on the table that would require a doctor to _inform_ a patient of all their medical options and it is vetoed. I hope if nothing else, this serves as a wake up call that you have to be very proactive in your own medical care. Your doctor, who you most likely have given your unquestioned trust, may not be telling you something that he/she doesn't know. They may even be intentionally not telling you what all your options are because they don't agree with them religiously.

We go to doctors when we are broken. We are scared. We are vulnerable. We are clinging to life and to hope. We are reliant on their knowledge and expertise to help us and guide us. We need them to make us better, because we can't do it for ourselves.

Any medical professional that violates that bond should never be allowed to practice medicine again.

To think that the governor of Colorado supports the violation of this trust makes me very sad to say I live in this state.

[Muenkel 0]

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I grew up in a very strict Catholic house, went to Catholic school for 12 years, had to attend church every morning except Saturdays. The more I learned, the less I believed.

It's amazing how life can bring people down two different paths when their backgrounds are very similar. I also grew up in a strict (not fire and brimstone) Catholic family and attended 12 years of Catholic school. I didn't have to go to church everyday though...just Sundays. For me though, the more I learned, the more I believed.

This is no judgement at all on you Mar. Just an observation. This is also true with BillVon and I (correct me if I am wrong, Bill). We both attended the same Catholic H.S. (different years) and he came away with a completely different experience than I did.

I can honestly say that I was always...and still am...very content with my religious affiliation. I never challenged what I was taught and just tried to grow with it. I do understand though how folks can have doubts and do their searching elsewhere.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[rushmc 23]

There are many things we do that take a state license of some sort.

Again, while agreeing with most of your post that does not change the fact that you are substituting a belief with another using a law.

Not right.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mr2mk1g 10]

Does the Catholic church say people should not know about contraceptive methods or that they should not make use of contraceptive methods?

Does one go to Hell for simply possessing the knowledge or perhaps for passing that knowledge on? Or is it only the use of contraceptives that will condemn your soul to Purgatory?

One would suppose the Pope knew of contraceptives as he issued edicts concerning their use... ought he be condemned?

Now, what is it that this bill is asking medics to do? Is it asking them to make use of contraceptives or simply provide knowledge of their existence?

Ought the aid who told the Pope about the morning after pill be condemned because he spread knowledge of their existence and apparently according to some, that in its self is against the Catholic doctrine?

[flyangel2 2]

Chris, thanks so much for not flaming me on my believes.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Lindsey 0]

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There are many things we do that take a state license of some sort.

Again, while agreeing with most of your post that does not change the fact that you are substituting a belief with another using a law.

Not right.

You are substituting the belief that doctors *should* inform patients of their medical options for the belief that doctors *should not* inform their patients of their medical options. Seems pretty much the right thing to do to me.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rushmc 23]

Differnet debate. The details you speak of are inside the issue I am speaking of.

Again, based on your post, you think that the Catholic hospitals should be forsce via a law to tell somebody something. I believe this is outside the boundries of government.

Pesonally I think all information should be made available but I do not believe that I should be able to take my beliefs and force them down your throat via a law

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Pesonally I think all information should be made available but I do not believe that I should be able to take my beliefs and force them down your throat via a law

Cool - no beliefs are being forced down anyone's throats here.

See no one believes that it is wrong to possess knowledge of the existence of the contraceptive pill and what its function is.

[rushmc 23]

Correct, here, that is the case. It is still wrong IMO to create a law that forces any institution to give out information that it does not believe in.

Thererfore, the CO govener was correct to veto the bill.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Lindsey 0]

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Correct, here, that is the case. It is still wrong IMO to create a law that forces any institution to give out information that it does not believe in.

Thererfore, the CO govener was correct to veto the bill.

What if it is the institution's belief that white people are superior to black people and should get preferential and superior treatment? What if it's their belief that people who smoke brought their disease on themselves and therefore should not be treated at all?

There are all kinds of beliefs that people have, but medical care is not the place for those beliefs to take precedence over ones duty to provide care.

That being said, if a doctor has ethical issues in treating any patient, he/she can refer or turn over care to another physician. The first physician, though, continues to have a duty to provide the patient the best care possible, regardless of his/her belief system, until another physician takes over the care of that patient.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[mr2mk1g 10]

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It is still wrong IMO to create a law that forces any institution to give out information that it does not believe in.

All they are being required to do is say that the morning after pill exists and that it would prevent pregnancy. They must believe in that - it's scientific fact.

What they don't believe in is the morals of making use of the pill - they're not being required to make use of the pill nor even advocate its use, just note that it exists and what it does.

I simply can't see where any beliefs are being forced.
Ah well, if we disagree, we disagree. C'est la vie.

[rushmc 23]

Cilil rights is a different issue. Medical treatment? I already stated that equal and complete medical treatment should be given.

We are talking about making someone give out information here.......through a law...........that goes against centuries of doctrine. Not the same IMHO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mr2mk1g 10]

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We are talking about making someone give out information here

Exactly - Catholics don't believe that giving out information is wrong. They believe that making use of contraception is wrong. No one's making them do anything which they consider to be wrong.

[rushmc 23]

You know, in the jist of this topic you and I agree. To what level government should be involved is the only place we differ.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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We are talking about making someone give out information here

Exactly - Catholics don't believe that giving out information is wrong. They believe that making use of contraception is wrong. No one's making them do anything which they consider to be wrong.

Good point, that is an angle I will need to think about.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mr2mk1g 10]

That's more than I'd ever hoped to achieve with anything I’ve write here. If you still disagree with me afterwards then that’s still cool.

[JohnnyD 0]

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Correct, here, that is the case. It is still wrong IMO to create a law that forces any institution to give out information that it does not believe in.

Thererfore, the CO govener was correct to veto the bill.

I think you are missing the point completely. The ones who are having something forced on them are the patients. It is the duty of the physician to care for the patient. Period. Man, woman, black, white, green, child, catholic, muslim, atheist. None of it matters. The physician provides the best medical care possible, as required by the state medical board - NOT the church medical board. If a physician is unable to provide such care, his/her license should be suspended. The problem in this case is that the governor is condoning a level of care that is potentially harmful to some women due to his personal religious beliefs.

If your daughter was raped and impregnated by a man that escaped from a mental hospital and while receiving treatment in the ER, information about the morning after pill and any other means of terminating the pregnancy were intentionally withheld from her, you would be calling lawyers and scheduling press conferences. You would be screaming at the top of your lungs for the state medical board to pull the doctors license. No wait - of course you wouldn't, because this is the internet and not real. When it becomes real, that is when people change their minds and quit leaning on the crutch of religion.
I guess its a good thing we don't have Jehovah Witness hospitals, or that you don't get inadvertently routed to the holistic only ER.

The good news is that its not over yet. The veto can still be over ridden and the governor can be voted out in the next election.

[JohnnyD 0]

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To what level government should be involved is the only place we differ.

In a perfect world, there would be no need for the government to be involved at all. If there is something wrong with you and you go to a doctor, you get the best medical care possible. Unfortunately in the real world, we need laws to ensure that we are getting the best medical care possible.

[Tonto 1]

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Wow! There are two of us?!

Make that three.

I think he was a mass murderer.

Watching MILLIONS die of AIDS in Africa, and knowing that condoms could save them, and yet still forcing 1 billion catholics to choose between death on this planet and eternal life someplace else, or life on this planet and eternal damnation someplace else, is evil. It's criminal.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Lindsey 0]

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Cilil rights is a different issue. Medical treatment? I already stated that equal and complete medical treatment should be given.

We are talking about making someone give out information here.......through a law...........that goes against centuries of doctrine. Not the same IMHO

I don't believe it is all that different. In fact, equality in medical care is not a civil right I don't think. My point is that there are all kinds of people with all kinds of strongly-held beliefs (centries of doctrine or not, but still very strong beliefs). Nobody forces anyone to become a physician, but when one chooses to be a physician, his or her own beliefs have to come second to the patients that he/she treats. Physicians know that when they start medical school. If they simply are unable to set aside their personal religious beliefs for the good of treating patients, then they do not belong in the medical profession.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail