Female rape victims in CO should stay away from Catholic Hospitals

[mr2mk1g 10]

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In that situation, the state board should not grant the license to provide emergency care. NOT allowing something to happen is not a violation of that groups religious beliefs in this situation. That denomination does not have as one of it's mandates or doctrines that it must provide emergency care. Neither does a Catholic hospital for that matter.

That's something I thought of while writing that post, but omitted from the final version. (I ought to note that I omitted it as I have a good deal of sympathy for the “victims” of the eventual outcome).

What is the ultimate sanction for hospitals who fail to adhere to the requirements of this bill, if passed? Simple; their license to practice ER medicine will be revoked.

Since no one has the "right" to practice ER medicine, the Catholic Church does not consider itself mandated to do so, and the US constitution does not deem such activities worthy of protection, no one’s actually had anything trampled upon.

As I said though, I have a good deal of sympathy for any institution who feels forced out of an activity after making what they consider to be a religious decision.

[kelpdiver 2]

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If it prevents a potentially dangerous condition as a result of an assault, and the decision must be made in X hours - it sure as heck is emergency medical care.

An abortion is not in most cases Emergency care.

So, Ron, you're saying that the hospital doesn't have to provide good medical care, it just has to prevent immediate harm to the patient?

In addition to emergency care, the ER often performs the role of off hour urgent care. Not everything will kill the patient, but waiting a couple days will reduce options and the overall health of the person. If you gash open your foot, you have a window of about 12 hours to stitch it up. Otherwise you have to wait for skin to grow across the gap. Took more than a month for me.

A pregnant rape victim is not healthy. The risk of suicide shoots up, in this case as a result of the hospital's intentional failure to provide good advice and care. I imagine quite a few doctors would ignore a directive from the top to perform in such a way.

[Ron 10]

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And you are being a jackass and just repeating yourself over and over again (as usual).

Nice personal attack.

Too bad you cannot discuss this like adults when your argument is weak.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

>And you are being a jackass and just repeating yourself . . .

Keely, you know better than that. Your one warning.

[likearock 2]

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For ex. if I were a Catholic doc, I could not, in good conscience inform a woman that if she wanted to take an abortifacient, she could go see Dr. So and so at 555 So and so Street and they are open from 9 to 4 mon through thursday. I would, however, have to tell her that she may be pregnant as a result of the rape and that if she wished to take an abortifacient, she would need to do so at another facility.

However, if she were unaware of the existence of a morning after pill, she would probably miss that narrow window of opportunity to use it. She'd go to see another doctor and find out her only remaining alternative would be to get an abortion, which could be scheduled anytime in the next few months. Then 3 or 5 months later she gets a real abortion where a semi-developed fetus is extracted from her body. Is this really a preferable moral alternative to that of simply preventing the fertilized egg from developing in the first place?

This to me is the crux of this issue, it's not so much a matter of belief in the primacy of life but whether you have an absolutist or pragmatic view of that primacy. The Catholic church, by its very nature, tends towards the absolutist view but that doesn't prevent many Catholics who consider themselves religious from making pragmatic distinctions, for example in the matter of condom use. It is clear to them that there isn't an absolute moral equivalence between preventing life on the level of a single cell and the prospect of forcibly extracting a developed fetus. However, the dogma of church insists that these two scenarios be viewed as equally evil.

There are other examples of how an absolutist view of right to life leads to a greater actual injury to life than a more pragmatic view. For example, in stem cell research where experimenting with single-celled "life" has the potential of eliminating suffering and death in a great number of living human beings.

And that's what this specific example boils down to. If the doctors at a religious institution were to merely mention the existence of a morning after pill, they could prevent the necessity of a full abortion down the road. I think they should ask themselves whether they're opting for their own personal comfort here at the expense of the greater good.

Wayne

[kbordson 8]

Another way to view this discussion (rather than the now over-done my religions says this....) is to bring up the physicians role in patient education.... Paternalistic vs. Autonomy
In years past, most major medical decisions were left exclusively in the hands of physicians. They were usually made with beneficent intent but without open discussion, much less the full participation of the patient. This paternalistic approach had some benefits. Physicians struggled to make the best possible decisions on behalf of patients, and they spared patients and their families from agonizing about interventions that had little chance of working. Practitioners also had much more control over the way that medical technology, with its increasing potential to help as well as to harm, was used. In retrospect, physicians now see obvious problems with excessive paternalism: It can be difficult to determine what a patient's best interests are; inappropriate biases caused by sex, religion, race, and socioeconomic status can affect decision making; and patients can be deprived of the opportunity to make decisions that reflect the reality of their conditions
So another topic of discussion is what should the role of YOUR doctor be... do you want them to give you all the information, or do they get to pick and choose what information is best for you?

[Shotgun 1]

You're right, Ron. I apologize.

[Ripple 0]

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Let’s pretend they open a hospital where all they do is sit round and prey for people.

They'll do their standard treatment of kneeling round preying for them.

Medical board says, “ok - just tell your patients that there exists other hospitals where they don't just prey for you, they actually plug the holes too.

That was clever

Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes

[mr2mk1g 10]

so I'm dyslexic

[Ripple 0]

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so I'm dyslexic

But, but, but.... it was SO good!

Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes

[Ron 10]

I agree with you more times than I disagree.

Sorry to have upset you about this topic.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Shotgun 1]

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Sorry to have upset you about this topic.

No worries, Ron. I wasn't upset, I was just being a brat. I'll try to behave now...

[kbordson 8]

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No - the contraceptive morning after pill can prevent fertilization itself. Your medical knowledge is flawed.

It makes the lining unable to support a fetalized egg. The egg and sperm have already combined.

Your knowledge is off.

Actually he's right. I not only thought that, but also did a literature review to confirm it.
The mechanism of action of Plan B is primarily by preventing ovulation or fertilization (by altering tubal transport of sperm and/or ova). In addition, it may inhibit implantation by altering the endometrium. May... not the primary mechanism of action. Plan B is not effective if a woman is pregnant. Plan B is a contraceptive and cannot terminate an established pregnancy.

reference Consumer info

and Pub Med Abstract
and Green Journal Abstract

So with that now set and referenced, we are just down to "beliefs".... and I believe that the woman should have the choice.

[flyangel2 2]

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So with that now set and referenced, we are just down to "beliefs".... and I believe that the woman should have the choice.

all their options.


Once again, when does life start? I believe that those that believe live starts the second the sperm and egg make contact, are against the morning-after pill because they believe that live has started.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[kbordson 8]

[replyOnce again, when does life start? I believe that those that believe live starts the second the sperm and egg make contact, are against the morning-after pill because they believe that live has started.

[Lindsey 0]

We had a big debate in here a while back about oral contraceptives. I asked then how people, who were anti-abortion, felt about a pill whose action can be to prevent implantation of a blastocyst, even though its primary mechanism of action is to prevent ovulation. If I recall correctly, at that time some of the people in this thread who argue against *this* medication did not believe that there was a problem with oral contraceptives in *that* thread. Anybody else recall???

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[flyangel2 2]

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Now if someone wants to influence that timeframe, then it might become an issue of abortion.

Ding, ding, ding........we have a winner.

I think because the issue of abortion comes into play, is why the Catholic Hospitals want to stay away from the morning after pill.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[kbordson 8]

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Ding, ding, ding........we have a winner.

I think because the issue of abortion comes into play, is why the Catholic Hospitals want to stay away from the morning after pill.

But what I was trying to allude to was the fact that if the other doctors refuse to even tell her about it and she takes 3-4 days (or more) to deal with the trauma of the rape and then realize..."What if I'm pregnant?" and then go to her OB/GYN... then it becomes an Ab.. and not a prevention of the pregnancy. Now she has to deal with that ethical situation that could have been prevented had the doctor simply told her of ALL her options and had her make the decision best for her.

[flyangel2 2]

I'm following your thinking. But, some people believe the morning after pill is a form of abortion.

Edit to add:
I'm with you all the way on what you are saying.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[kbordson 8]

I know... and although I'm responding to you, it's not really you that I'm addressing... rather, I'm attempting to better clarify that with the known mechanism of action its not an "abortion pill."

But, I understand that each has their own opinions. It just upsets me when some allow their beliefs to influence the lives of others.

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

Steve...you know me...all too welll.....

_________________________________________

[PLFXpert 0]

I've skimmed through this, so forgive me if it is a repost/same thoughts as others. And I wasn't sure if this should be posted in a new thread or not?

http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/115383211470590.xml&coll=1

How is this separation of church & state? Or am I just idealistic in hoping that will ever happen.

A little excerpt from the hospital's website:

http://www.gshleb.org/aboutus.cfm?id=555555

I try never to post in the SC. My belief is that I feel strongly in my own opinions, morals and viewpoints. Thus, I would be a hypocrite to judge others for having equal and opposite opinions, morals and viewpoints. I try to keep an open ear and an open mind.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

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I try never to post in the SC. My belief is that I feel strongly in my own opinions, morals and viewpoints. Thus, I would be a hypocrite to judge others for having equal and opposite opinions, morals and viewpoints. I try to keep an open ear and an open mind.

If you're keeping an open ear and an open mind, SC can only be educational (and sometimes amusing!). I've found that my own viewpoints have been strengthened by the time I spemd here, because I've been forced to do research and have better learned to articulate my own opinions, and the reasons for them. And, sometimes, of couse, I learn something new, and change my mind.

[PhreeZone 20]

I'm going to stay away from everything else in the thread and reply to this only

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How is this separation of church & state? Or am I just idealistic in hoping that will ever happen.

A Hospital is a privately run company. They are not a "State" and are not required to have any seperation at all. If they want to require you to pray for an hour before you can get treatment for anything that is their choice to do so. From a business decision it might not be smart since praying while you are bleeding from a car accident might lead to you dying but they could require it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PLFXpert 0]

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If you're keeping an open ear and an open mind, SC can only be educational (and sometimes amusing!). I've found that my own viewpoints have been strengthened by the time I spemd here, because I've been forced to do research and have better learned to articulate my own opinions, and the reasons for them. And, sometimes, of couse, I learn something new, and change my mind.

I lurk here.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.