Female rape victims in CO should stay away from Catholic Hospitals

[Ron 10]

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If it prevents a potentially dangerous condition as a result of an assault, and the decision must be made in X hours - it sure as heck is emergency medical care.

An abortion is not in most cases Emergency care.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[justinb138 0]

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and just how exactly is conception a potentially dangerous condition? and don't give me that crap about "some women die during pregnancy." while that is true, it is so entirely rare that you can't ipso facto assume that b/c a rape victim has conceived, she's at risk of death and must therefore be given an abortifacient.

I think the point is not that conception is dangerous, but that a standard abortion can bring about many more complications than the pill.

[sinker 0]

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And you make my point exactly. You can -only- see this as a religious issue, which it is not. You think its wrong based on your own personal religious beliefs and you would seek to impose those beliefs on people regardless of what they may believe. I think the opposite. All people should be allowed to choose for themselves. If the catholic church has a problem with that, (and they obviously do) they should not be in the business of public healthcare.

Side thought - how do you justify catholics being police officers or soldiers? The police officer may have to use his weapon - in self defense - which may or may not be a violation of one of the commandments. The soldier's job is to actively seek out and kill, which is certainly a violation of one of the commandments.

A couple of points... this IS a religious issue. I believe, as do the billion+ who profess to be Catholics, that life begins at conception. The field of medicine has made great progress in the last 10 years in the field of reproduction and embryology. The more research that is published, the closer medicine gets to proving this point. It's not hard to see this is true, even outside of the realm of medical research. So, let's pretend for a minute, that science does say one day that indeed, the Catholic Church has been right all along, that unique, unrepeatable human life begins at conception and to terminate that life is evil. What then? Don't say it'll never happen, b/c it's already getting close.

All people should be able to choose for themselves you say. In today's world, they can, unfortunately, choose to end the life of an unborn child by procuring an abortion. Even if abortion were illegal, they could still make that choice, albeit assuming huge risks to themselves from a safety and legal standpoint. I'm just having a really hard time trying to explain in another way how NOT informing a rape victim HOW TO procure an abortion is forcing my beliefs on her. All the time, doctors make decisions based on their beliefs of what is best for their patients.

Another point... take your statement "all patients should be able to decide for themselves..." of course, they can, Catholic hospitals are NOT taking any "choice" away, they're simply not making what it believes to be very bad choices available. But take that statement further... say a patient is depressed and although they have tried prozac, zoloft and effexor, they are still depressed. they come to the ER looking for "medical treatment" in the form of assisted suicide. Would you maintain that it is a violation of the person's rights for any hospital to NOT provide means of killing oneself, including instructions on how to go about it?

Your side thought is a good one: there is no moral dilemma w/ police officers and soldiers in that each is tasked with the duty of protecting and defending. those actions are not evil, in and of themselves, including the killing of other people, if it is in the legitimate action of protecting and defending others from some evil. however in the course of those avocations, a police officer or soldier may be asked by an authority to do something like kill an innocent person, in the name of their profession. This would clearly be wrong and the officer or soldier has an obligation to NOT obey such an order, even if he or she will suffer some form of punishment or retribution.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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An abortion is not in most cases Emergency care.

Here's another brain twister... in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, one in which the baby (or fetus or conceptus ) implants in the fallopian tubes, for Catholics, is it ok to abort in that circumstance, since there is very real risk that the mother may die when the tube ruptures as a result of the implantation?

According to Catholic medical ethics, never under any circumstance can a direct "assault" be made on an unborn child. However, surgical intervention should occur to prevent the real possibility of the mother having a ruptured tube. In this situation, the baby isn't the problem, the placenta at it's place of attachment is the problem and steps should be taken to allow the baby to reach viability, either by transplanting it to the uterus, if possible, or to an exterior incubator or whatnot. Given the delicate nature of such an operation and the fragility of the baby, it's highly likely, given today's state of medical technology, that the baby will die as a result of the surgery. However, that was not the intention, it is an unintended consequence, possibly, and medical technology should be aimed at developing a way for both the mother and the baby to be saved.

What the Catholic Church does NOT say is that a mother must give up her life for the sake of her unborn child. That is an erroneous belief.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[wmw999 2,589]

I am perfectly willing to believe that it's a religious issue, and that the feelings are deeply and personally held. I'm also perfectly willing to believe that there are billions of people out there who feel, just as deeply and personally, that a baby does not begin at conception, and that there are things that are worse than death.

Where options exist, it's one thing to say "these are the options" while excluding the legal ones that you find to be unacceptable, and another thing entirely to say "these are the options that we offer, you have to go elsewhere for more information," or "these are the options we offer; there are others that we find unacceptable."

If the patient were to ask about a morning after pill, would a Catholic hospital be more likely to say "that's not something we do, we find it abhorrent and will not participate in any way" or "that doesn't exist?"

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sinker 0]

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I think the point is not that conception is dangerous, but that a standard abortion can bring about many more complications than the pill.

very, very true.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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If the patient were to ask about a morning after pill, would a Catholic hospital be more likely to say "that's not something we do, we find it abhorrent and will not participate in any way" or "that doesn't exist?"

I think they'd leave out the "we find it abhorrent" part, at least I'd hope they would. That wouldn't be very sensitive to the rape victim. And being sensitive and caring to the victim is of supreme importance here. I'm afraid those that support the Catholic position here may have come across as not compassionate towards the victim, and I'm very very sorry if I've been guilty of this. Women don't ask to be raped, they aren't responsible for being raped, and Catholic hospitals especially need to be very very compassionate and attentive and loving in their care for these victims.

edited to say: I have to run, leaving town for the weekend.

I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread, thanks for the engaging dialogue. md

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Nightingale 0]

some females can get pregnant as early as age 8. carrying a child at that age can be very dangerous physically, and what the heck would it do to her emotionally?

[JohnnyD 0]

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All people should be able to choose for themselves you say. In today's world, they can, unfortunately, choose to end the life of an unborn child by procuring an abortion. Even if abortion were illegal, they could still make that choice, albeit assuming huge risks to themselves from a safety and legal standpoint. I'm just having a really hard time trying to explain in another way how NOT informing a rape victim HOW TO procure an abortion is forcing my beliefs on her. All the time, doctors make decisions based on their beliefs of what is best for their patients.

The reason this is NOT a religious issue is that if I apply my argument to any medical procedure, I will still arrive at the same answer. If you apply your argument to different procedures, your answer will change. Therefore, you are imposing your beliefs onto other people. The sad part about that is you're doing it to people who are turning to you when they are at the most vulnerable, scared, and hurt points in their lives.

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Another point... take your statement "all patients should be able to decide for themselves..." of course, they can, Catholic hospitals are NOT taking any "choice" away, they're simply not making what it believes to be very bad choices available.

There is nothing wrong with that at all, provided the patient is at least made aware of all of her options.

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But take that statement further... say a patient is depressed and although they have tried prozac, zoloft and effexor, they are still depressed. they come to the ER looking for "medical treatment" in the form of assisted suicide. Would you maintain that it is a violation of the person's rights for any hospital to NOT provide means of killing oneself, including instructions on how to go about it?

No, because telling someone how to kill themselves is out of the minimum standards of healthcare.

The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are. You have to maintain minimum standards of healthcare. That is why its not a religious issue, but one of public health and safety.

[sinker 0]

as if the possibility of rape and subsequent conception weren't difficult enough, this makes the question even more tragic and difficult. I think that the stance of the Catholic church wouldn't change, but I need to research this scenario further. Thankfully, this possibility is very, very rare and unlikely.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Zenister 0]

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by this definition we have an astounding number of children who were born, not from 'Intercourse' but from a base physical act common to all species with gender determinators, the majority of who's births have little to do with "giving onself to another in the deepest way possible' and more to do with simple lust.

thanks for stating the obvious. and yes, it's quite sad, that many people are the product of lust and not from an act of mutual self-donation between spouses.

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even 'the church' should recognize that there is far more to "giving onself" than the simple physical act that results in pregnancy.

The Church does indeed recognize this. Not quite sure what your point is.

the point is,... that if Rape is not Intercourse (see above definition) and the majority of sexual acts are also 'not Intercourse' (same definition) than the only time abortion is murder (per the church's definition) is when it's performed by a couple that actually had 'Intercourse', which is quite a minority vs all the children born simply because someone got laid...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[sinker 0]

I understand your line of reasoning, but the bone of contention I have wiht it is that standards of care change, and not always for the better. Some countries are very very close to establishing assisted suicide as a standard of care, and that's not just for terminally ill people.

This applies to abortion too. It never, ever was a "standard of care" and in fact was illegal until 1973. You'd still be hard-pressed to prove it is a standard of care in this situation. However, the point here is that in the 32 years since Roe v Wade, the number of abortions has actually dropped, in no small part due to the publics changing views on abortion. So, if the state or fed ever outlaws abortion or if state med boards state catagorically that any direct abortion violates standards of care, what will you say then?

so much for me leaving...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Zenister 0]

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Yes, because the hospital is regulated by the state, not the church.

The Church would say they answer to a higher power. But you want to force them to do as you wish.

if they provide emergency services (where a victim might have no say in where they ended up at) or if they take federal funding to support their facility, then their religious beliefs are secondary no matter who they claim as 'higher power'... he isnt paying for the utilities.. tax money is....everyone's tax money, not just those of a particular faith..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[sinker 0]

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the point is,... that if Rape is not Intercourse (see above definition) and the majority of sexual acts are also 'not Intercourse' (same definition) than the only time abortion is murder (per the church's definition) is when it's performed by a couple that actually had 'Intercourse', which is quite a minority vs all the children born simply because someone got laid...

no no no... you're misreading what I said... whether an act is defined as true intercourse or not has NO bearing (sp?) on the status of the human being! A person is still a person even if he/she is the product of rape. And the direct, intentional killing of the product of rape is still the killing of innocent life. I don't go so far as to lable it murder, which is a legal term and not really applicable here.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[JohnnyD 0]

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I understand your line of reasoning, but the bone of contention I have wiht it is that standards of care change, and not always for the better. Some countries are very very close to establishing assisted suicide as a standard of care, and that's not just for terminally ill people.

This applies to abortion too. It never, ever was a "standard of care" and in fact was illegal until 1973. You'd still be hard-pressed to prove it is a standard of care in this situation. However, the point here is that in the 32 years since Roe v Wade, the number of abortions has actually dropped, in no small part due to the publics changing views on abortion. So, if the state or fed ever outlaws abortion or if state med boards state catagorically that any direct abortion violates standards of care, what will you say then?

so much for me leaving...

In that case I would say that the catholic hospital and all hospitals should not inform patients of medical options which are illegal. They could get in trouble for that. In the mean time, all hospitals should be required to inform patients of -all- their legal medical options. They may not be able or willing to provide them and that is fine. The patient is free to seek treatment elsewhere.

[Zenister 0]

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the point is,... that if Rape is not Intercourse (see above definition) and the majority of sexual acts are also 'not Intercourse' (same definition) than the only time abortion is murder (per the church's definition) is when it's performed by a couple that actually had 'Intercourse', which is quite a minority vs all the children born simply because someone got laid...

no no no... you're misreading what I said... whether an act is defined as true intercourse or not has NO bearing (sp?) on the status of the human being! A person is still a person even if he/she is the product of rape. And the direct, intentional killing of the product of rape is still the killing of innocent life. I don't go so far as to lable it murder, which is a legal term and not really applicable here.

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in the case of rape, the teaching of the Church regarding the evil of contraception in relation to sexual intercourse does not apply b/c rape is NOT intercourse. Intercouse, as defined by the Church is the mutually chosen act of giving onself to another in the deepest way possible

ah i see.. so as long as your just getting you rocks off its not really 'Intercourse' either.. so contraceptives use is OK?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[rehmwa 2]

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ah i see.. so as long as your just getting you rocks off its not really 'Intercourse' either.. so contraceptives use is OK?

Now that really depends on how you define "sex" and "is". If you know what I mean.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sinker 0]

if all you're going to do is mock and be sarcastic, i'm not going to respond to you. sad to see you haven't changed much.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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ah i see.. so as long as your just getting you rocks off its not really 'Intercourse' either.. so contraceptives use is OK?

Now that really depends on how you define "sex" and "is". If you know what I mean.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Shotgun 1]

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Only god (If you believe in him) can create life, but any jackass can take one.

Your argument is still weak.

And you are being a jackass and just repeating yourself over and over again (as usual).

[sinker 0]

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Only god (If you believe in him) can create life, but any jackass can take one.

Your argument is still weak.

And you are being a jackass and just repeating yourself over and over again (as usual).

gotta admit that was funny.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 3,119]

>really? that's a new one on me, but I'm not expert w/ the OT.

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

>Jesus wasn't always keen on how people in the OT acted.

Matthew 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Luke 24:25-27 "Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." "

Matthew 15:3-4 "He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, "Honor your father and your mother';and, "He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' "

[rehmwa 2]

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ah i see.. so as long as your just getting you rocks off its not really 'Intercourse' either.. so contraceptives use is OK?

Now that really depends on how you define "sex" and "is". If you know what I mean.

I was mocking and sarcastic and get smiley faces, but zenister gets the "sad" comment?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Zenister 0]

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if all you're going to do is mock and be sarcastic, i'm not going to respond to you. sad to see you haven't changed much.

and the same song from the religious front appears,.. as soon as you point out the logical inconsistencies in their world view you are no longer 'questioning' but instead, "mocking and sarcastic".. if the pattern holds soon to follow will be, 'lying heathen' and 'of the devil's party'

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[rehmwa 2]

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soon to follow will be, 'lying heathen' and 'of the devil's party'

Rod, "Faster Daddy, the heathen's getting away"
Ned, "I can't go faster, it's a Yugo"

(I know, different episodes)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants