Are you really more "free" if you live in the US?

[Airman1270 0]

>...The history of Christianity is filled with mass killings of heathens of all sorts. The history of religion in general is worse, with no shortage of even more current examples...
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True. The HISTORY of Christianity is filled with lots of bad stuff. This holds true for the history of atheism as well. The history of mankind is filled with lots of bad stuff. But neither Jesus nor the Bible condones this bad stuff. You're basing your evaluation of Christianity not on the teachings of Jesus, but on the conduct of imperfect men who acted outside the parameters of Biblical standards.

If a skydiver robs a bank, or messes with a young child, this does not mean that USPA supports robbery or molestation.

Cheers,
Jon

[kelpdiver 2]

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>...I think any person of any gender should be able to marry any other person of any gender...
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You're trying to change the definition of a word that has meant a certain thing throughout thousands of years of recorded history.

But the Supreme Court (the authority that matters) wrote that marriage between any two *people* should not be restricted. This decision eliminated the ban on interracial marriage.

We don't have to toe the line to thousand year old racism anymore. Why is this any different?

[Foursprouts 0]

My 2 pence worth. Didn't read the whole thread as I am too lazy so may have been said before. I have lived in the US and many other countries. Most of the people who I have heard say things like 'I am glad I am an american because it is the only true free country in the world etc etc' have never left the US. If this is you you cannot make comments like that because you do not know what you are talking about. I loved living in the states and am not saying anything bad about the place I just hate the way so many of you say shit without knowing what you are comparing it too. England is alot like the states as far as what you can do, ok no guns but wouldn't you prefer to live in a country where the police carry wooden sticks because they don't need anything else. The only thing I disliked about the US was the stupid people who commented about other countries without knowing anything about them. Most developed countries have better points and also worse points when compared to each other and it pisses me off so much when people say shit without knowing what they are talking about.

[kelpdiver 2]

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True. The HISTORY of Christianity is filled with lots of bad stuff. This holds true for the history of atheism as well. The history of mankind is filled with lots of bad stuff. But neither Jesus nor the Bible condones this bad stuff. You're basing your evaluation of Christianity not on the teachings of Jesus, but on the conduct of imperfect men who acted outside the parameters of Biblical standards.

If a skydiver robs a bank, or messes with a young child, this does not mean that USPA supports robbery or molestation.

Well, does the robber say: "in the name of the USPA, hit the fucking floor now!" ?

Whereas the Church has killed in the name of Jesus Christ, for offenses as gross as saying the earth revolves around the sun.

And they're just following the Bible - why was the earth flooded? To kill all the sinners and let Noah restart, right? On many instances God took vengeance, and the Church saw that it too could take that role.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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...but wouldn't you prefer to live in a country where the police carry wooden sticks because they don't need anything else...

: "STOP! Or....I'll...say 'STOP' again!"

[jakee 1,594]

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One small example of this principle can be found at numerous DZ's where they won't let me jump because my rig does not have an AAD. Under Judeo-Christian principles, I place my ultimate fate in the hands of God, knowing that if I do suffer an accident He allowed it to happen for reasons we may never understand. This is my choice. To interfere with this choice is to trample my liberty as well as my religious freedom.

This is not an imposition on you. By allowing me to make this choice, you are under no obligation to worship Jesus Christ or modify your own behavior in any way.

By forcing me to wear an AAD, you are imposing your own secular humanist beliefs on me, beliefs which are based on the assumption that there is no God, that mankind is capable, through legislation, of removing accidents & tragedies from the human experience. You'll defend this practice by pointing out that if I go in, you might be sued for failing to prevent the accident. This is how the legal industry is working to impose the religion of secular humanism on society.

Honestly dude, what the fuck are you talking about?

Next time the crack pipe comes round just say no, that kind of thing can cause paranoia!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Lemurs come from Madagascar.

[billvon 3,108]

>But neither Jesus nor the Bible condones this bad stuff. You're basing your
>evaluation of Christianity not on the teachings of Jesus, but on the
> conduct of imperfect men who acted outside the parameters of Biblical standards.

The bible both condones violence and lays out examples of its usage. We choose to interpret it nowadays as a nonviolent religion, but it was certainly not based on that, nor has it always been a nonviolent religion. The crusades, for example, were sold as a just and holy war by the leaders of the catholic church - including by leaders held to be infallible by the church. From a speech by Pope Urban II:

----------------------------------
"On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it is meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago."
---------------------------------

[Nightingale 0]

Just because it's the way you've always done things doesn't make it the right way.

[jakee 1,594]

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Lemurs come from Madagascar.

All of them?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mr2mk1g 10]

hey, I didn't say they were good Christians, just that they were Christians. If you automatically cease to be the religion you claim to be just by failing to act within its constraints… well, every catholic on earth just blew themselves into atheism the first time they tugged one off the wrist.

[Airman1270 0]

>...The bible both condones violence and lays out examples of its usage...
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There are examples in the Old Testament of God allowing the destruction of people because they defied His authority. Nowhere do we find situations where God authorized harm to people who made a sincere effort to keep His commandments.

In the New testament, Jesus changes the way we deal with sin. No longer do we see God venting His anger by destroying people.

I can do some pretty horrible things to you and claim that I'm acting "in the name of Jesus", but if my actions contradict Biblical teaching there is no way you can credibly assign my behavior to Church teaching.

Notice how we don't attempt to discredit other religions in this manner? There are plenty of examples of atheists, Jews, Muslims, etc. doing bad things and causing harm to individuals as well as society as a whole, but we don't blatantly condemn the entire religious viewpoint, nor those who subscribe to it, based on these examples.

When you're driving along peacefully, and some guy with a fish on his car cuts you off and waves the finger at you, you consider this as proof of the hypocrisy & uselessness of Christianity. But when the same guy smiles and lets you merge into the lane before him, you don't say "Damn, I'm convinced - I must get me to a church this weekend and learn more about this Jesus dude."

Many people seem to think that they'd be better off if there was less Christian influence in society, but at the same time, if you enter into a personal or a business relationship with someone and they fail to treat you according to Biblical standards, you're going to be pretty upset with them.

If you lose your wallet, who do you want to find it? A con artist who spends his life trying to scam people, or a morally clean guy who picked it up off the street on his way home from Bible study? Which situation provides a greater likelihood of the wallet being returned to you?

See how we've strayed? This thread was about whether we're more free in the USA. In the early days, Christianity was the dominant religious belief. Most people, to one extent or another, were influenced by this standard. The government respected the Church, and our laws reflected the Judeo-Christian moral foundation. Sure, we weren't perfect, but this was at a time when Americans enjoyed more freedom than at any other time in our history.

During the 20th century, secularists actively worked to reduce Christian influence. Regardless of their motives, the end result has been more & more laws and a severe reduction in personal liberty.

No matter what the topic, it appears one cannot say something positive about the Church without the conversation being derailed into a series of Christian bashing comments.

Thanks again,
Jon S.

[kelpdiver 2]

[replySee how we've strayed? This thread was about whether we're more free in the USA. In the early days, Christianity was the dominant religious belief. Most people, to one extent or another, were influenced by this standard. The government respected the Church, and our laws reflected the Judeo-Christian moral foundation. Sure, we weren't perfect, but this was at a time when Americans enjoyed more freedom than at any other time in our history.

[jakee 1,594]

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If you lose your wallet, who do you want to find it? A con artist who spends his life trying to scam people, or a morally clean guy who picked it up off the street on his way home from Bible study? Which situation provides a greater likelihood of the wallet being returned to you?

Wow, I'm impressed.

What a beautifully subtle, well constructed hint that anyone who doesn't go to bible study is a con artist.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,594]

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Many people seem to think that they'd be better off if there was less Christian influence in society, but at the same time, if you enter into a personal or a business relationship with someone and they fail to treat you according to Biblical standards, you're going to be pretty upset with them.

The bible didn't invent common decency, its just one place where it is recorded. (Along with some things that are just nasty)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,108]

>There are examples in the Old Testament of God allowing the
>destruction of people because they defied His authority.

Of course. Heck, there are times when just not going to the same church was cause for execution.

>In the New testament, Jesus changes the way we deal with sin. No
>longer do we see God venting His anger by destroying people.

---------------
Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin." (Luke 17)
-------------

>I can do some pretty horrible things to you and claim that I'm acting "in
>the name of Jesus", but if my actions contradict Biblical teaching there
>is no way you can credibly assign my behavior to Church teaching.

A pope of the catholic church once called for a genocidal war against pagans - not because they were sinners, but because they were not christian. He even said Jesus wanted it. It would be very difficult to claim that he was not acting in the name of the Church, and it would be impossible to claim that that was not what the Church wanted, since he is its leader.

Now, was he really acting per the teachings of Jesus? I would say no. But that's merely evidence that people disagree on what his teachings meant. Clearly the pope is more of a biblical authority than I am.

>When you're driving along peacefully, and some guy with a fish on his
> car cuts you off and waves the finger at you, you consider this as proof
> of the hypocrisy & uselessness of Christianity.

No, I see it as evidence that he's a dick. If a guy with a little Darwin fish cut me off I would think he was a dick too.

>If you lose your wallet, who do you want to find it? A con artist who
> spends his life trying to scam people, or a morally clean guy who
> picked it up off the street on his way home from Bible study?

How about a moral atheist? I'd much rather have it found by a moral atheist than by a christian thief. It is their character, rather than their religion, that matters.

There is no problem with any (legal) expression of religion within the US. Whether christian, jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist, or agnostic, all such expressions are protected within the US. It's only when they try to make that expression part of our government that people get upset.