kallend 2,146 #26 March 31, 2005 Depends how "free" is defined. I have lived half my life in Europe and half in the USA. On the whole I found that in both places I could pretty much do and say anything I wanted to. In the UK I belonged to a gun club for a while, but restrictions on guns were pretty strict. I now have no interest in guns despite being in the US where there is a gun shop and range just a mile from my house. It was easier to move around and get stuff done without carrying ID in the UK. In the US without a drivers license or ID card you are pretty constricted. The laws on drinking in Europe make more sense. Being a private pilot and owning an airplane in the US is MUCH MUCH easier than in Europe. Politics and the media in Europe seem less under the control of the very rich. Europe is a better place to be very poor or very rich. USA is the better place to be "comfortably off". You are treated better and with more respect by the police in the UK than in the US. Varies by country in Europe, I didn't think much of French or Italian police. Taxes are a wash. You appear to pay less tax in the US, but you get stuck with lots of "use fees" and the like. On the whole you get what you pay for. Health care. If you're very rich London or Switzerland are the best. If you're just plain rich the US is the best. If you're average, it's a wash. If you're poor, Europe is better. You are more likely to be handcuffed and jailed for a petty offense in the US. UK and USA have similar legal systems and protections. I think mainland Europe could learn something from the US/UK model. Assuming you have ID, travel is equally easy. No-one ever stopped me from going anywhere. I have noticed no difference at all in freedom of speech. Lots of stores and businesses in the US assume you have criminal intent. "No cash kept on the premises", "driver has no cash", "check bags at the door" signs are evidence. I don't see so much of this in Europe. The Big Brother cameras all over London are chilling! Unfortunately, many US cities are following suit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 March 31, 2005 QuoteHere's an example: http://news.com.com/2100-1023-275708.html?legacy=cnet "Publishing material likely to incite racial hatred is already illegal in the United Kingdom under the Public Order Act 1986," Or one from good ole California! Aguilar v. Avis Rent-a-Car (1999) 21 Cal.4th 121. http://lw.bna.com/lw/19990810/s054561.htm In that case, the California Supreme Court affirmed an order banning a list of certain derogatory words in the workplace. As Justice Mosk wrote in his dissent, "I feel equally strongly that we cannot use the instrumentality of the courts to penalize speech before we know what was said, to whom, and with what effect." I'd suggest you all read this case to see what's going on in terms of rights of free-speech. The California Supreme Court plurality actually supports the banning of words and creation of criminal liability for use of the words before they are even said. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #28 March 31, 2005 good points, thanks. PS what did you mention about the Jamie Bulger case? PM me if you dont want it here, im curious to know why people here took offence. Also, many Brits enjoy shooting as a hobby. I used to go to the range with a mate on a weekly basis and pop off some rounds before the Dunblane shooting. It was fun and challenging. We also are not overly sensitive about violence (as far as i know). Like the US, we have become quite desensitised to violence from one medium or another, in my opinion. In fact i think we have more graphic violence left in the movies in the UK/Euro cut than what is permissable in the US. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #29 March 31, 2005 QuoteIn the Land of the Free, you have to pay for everything! And in the land of make believe, you are forced to pay for everything, for everyone with your and their tax dollars. But as long as you're happy in a dream world, believing that your health care is free, then you will be one less person for the INS to worry about trying to get into this country. I lived in Germany for 8 months. I have been to the Auslaender Behorditz, where foreigners go to get their visas. Its a tiny place, (compared to the INS) where there were about 10-15 people online. On the other hand in any INS office, (I have been to several of them with my ex-wife), the lines are humongous. I am talking thousands of people daily going to each and everyone of these offices, trying to find someway that they can stay in the U.S., and for a good reason, this is by far the best country in the world. Now I am not in anyway trying put down Europe, I have many many freinds from there. But when they start trying to convince me that Europeans, on the average, do not have any desire to come to the U.S. I think they are being foolish. After all there is just too much evidence to the contrary. Cheers,If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #30 March 31, 2005 Interesting points, and good comparison post! Thanks "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #31 March 31, 2005 QuotePS what did you mention about the Jamie Bulger case? I started speaking in detail how the boy died. I was going to get to the point that perhaps penalties should be steeper but that taking away children's right to remain silent should be re-examined. For all intents and purposes, it might as well have been Janet Jackson's boob on my forehead in America. There was a great deal of shock that I'd mention facts like that. Here's the kicker. When I e-mailed one of them later about the case, the e-mail was returned with a message from the server that the content was banned. I was stunned. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #32 March 31, 2005 That is really strange - i know there is a time and place for everything, but i figure you were discussing the case because you thats part of you job - to analyse cases etc - not because you are some freak with a morbid fascination in it. Sounds to me like they were overreacting to be honest. Unless of course they weren't lawyers themselves, and they probably took offence because it might seem out of place for a discussion like that to happen. Anyway does sound really weird to me. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #33 March 31, 2005 This was in August, 2001. Right after the killers were released. I thought it was odd, as well. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hummusx 0 #34 March 31, 2005 QuoteThis is to do with written material designed to incite hatred, nothing more nothing less - there is nothing to stop you in this country taking to the streets and marching with a bunch of neo nazis and proclaiming you love for Hitler while seig heil'ing your merry way around the streets - as occasionally you will find our British National Party doing. Well that's all fine and dandy, but I'm merely trying to reply to your initial questions. In this case, in the US I can write whatever hate-inciting thing I want and hand it out with a lollipop on the street corner. Apparently in the UK you cannot. And pretty soon you won't be able to post it on your website either. What's scary about this is that the definition of 'hate-inciting' is awfully subjective. But to get back on topic, it is an example of where we have MORE rights in the US than in the UK. ____________________________________ It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #35 March 31, 2005 You obviosuly didn't read what lawrocket posted. Go have a look at this link: http://lw.bna.com/lw/19990810/s054561.htm If a jury can find that stopping someone using a racial slur against another is not an infraction on their right to freedom of speech, you can be sure that as soon as someone takes offence to someone handing out similarly offensive material on a street corner, that this case will be brought up and used to protest that stopping you handing out something that discriminates along racial lines is not an infringement of your personal freedoms, and is in fact discriminatory. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #36 March 31, 2005 QuoteI am talking thousands of people daily going to each and everyone of these offices, trying to find someway that they can stay in the U.S., and for a good reason, this is by far the best country in the world. And do you have any idea of the size of the illegal immigration problem facing the UK at the moment?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #37 March 31, 2005 QuoteAnd do you have any idea of the size of the illegal immigration problem facing the UK at the moment? When I was in England the biggest beef was with all the middle eastern and african immigrants. Boy, I thought Californians didn't like Mexican immigrants. I was shocked at all the comments I heard on the "plague" of immigrants! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #38 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteI am talking thousands of people daily going to each and everyone of these offices, trying to find someway that they can stay in the U.S., and for a good reason, this is by far the best country in the world. And do you have any idea of the size of the illegal immigration problem facing the UK at the moment? England is one country I have not been to. But I highly doubt that their problem with immigration is worse than Germany's. Believe me the Germans I met expressed their clear dislike for Russian, Cechs, Poles, Turks and any other immigrants trying to get into their country. Just like when I was in Italy they had their issues with the Albanians. But still these numbers of people trying to get into those countries are a mere fraction of the onesx trying to get into the U.S. I ts was all proven when I traveled all over Europe with my ex-wife. I had the American passport while she had the Belarussian passport. They would look at mine and say, whatever and they would take hers, stamp it, and ask what she was intending to do there. Why? Because they knew that having seen both countries (mine and theirs) that only a fool would choose to stay in theirs.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #39 March 31, 2005 it is interesting to see that even though many european countries have a social network setup, similar to a socialist mindset, there is a clear undertow of almost extreme right views when it comes to immigration policies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #40 March 31, 2005 Quoteit is interesting to see that even though many european countries have a social network setup, similar to a socialist mindset, there is a clear undertow of almost extreme right views when it comes to immigration policies. My conclusion on my trip to England? There really isn't much difference between the UK and the US. You all bitched about immigrants, schools, political correctness, the government, taxes, blah. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #41 March 31, 2005 QuoteI was shocked at all the comments I heard on the "plague" of immigrants! Yeah, thats the unsavoury side of middle England you ran into there. If you read the right wing rags like the Daily Mail etc you'd be forgiven for thinking it was a secret invasion plot or something. There's even a political party (UK Independance Party if you want to look it up, good for a laugh) who's entire platform is backing away from Europe and getting rid of all the dirty immigrants.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #42 March 31, 2005 These were people who hated "Right wingers" who were saying these things! To them, "Right winger" is an insult. It's why I was so surprised by it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #43 March 31, 2005 Quote You are more likely to be handcuffed and jailed for a petty offense in the US. UK and USA have similar legal systems and protections. I think mainland Europe could learn something from the US/UK model. Is my perception correct that the accused in the UK usually maintain their privacy until convicted? If true, that'd be an improvement I'd like to see in the US (where people are tried and convicted in the courts of media and public opinion long before any facts are presented in court). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #44 March 31, 2005 I know that in Holland, last names and pictures of faces are not allowed at least until convicted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #45 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuote You are more likely to be handcuffed and jailed for a petty offense in the US. UK and USA have similar legal systems and protections. I think mainland Europe could learn something from the US/UK model. Is my perception correct that the accused in the UK usually maintain their privacy until convicted? If true, that'd be an improvement I'd like to see in the US (where people are tried and convicted in the courts of media and public opinion long before any facts are presented in court). Blues, Dave More or less. The accused does not remain anonymous, but evidence cannot be revealed until it's given in court. So the prosecutors (or defense) can't leak stuff to the press to sway public opinion. Rather like an automatic gag-order. When I came to USA there was a very clear difference between the UK and US. Each time I go back, the differences get less and less. The stores look the same and carry the same goods, the same airliners are at the gates, the cars are increasingly the same, housing is looking the same, educational systems getting similar, TV showing the same crap... Traffic management is better in the UK. Never have to wait a minute at a red light while nothing goes the other way.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #46 March 31, 2005 Quote When I came to USA there was a very clear difference between the UK and US. Each time I go back, the differences get less and less. The stores look the same and carry the same goods, the same airliners are at the gates, the cars are increasingly the same, housing is looking the same, educational systems getting similar, TV showing the same crap... It's Californication. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #47 March 31, 2005 QuoteThe laws on drinking in Europe make more sense. What is different about the laws on drinking in Europe compared to the US? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #48 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe laws on drinking in Europe make more sense. What is different about the laws on drinking in Europe compared to the US? Well, number one is age. number two is probably open container laws. Those are the two big differences I know. Someone else can chime in the rest. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #49 March 31, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe laws on drinking in Europe make more sense. What is different about the laws on drinking in Europe compared to the US? They can drink out in public. The drinking age is lower. I am not sure about this one, but I bet the blood alcohol level limits are higher. There beer can be made stronger (more alcoholic). Now I rarely drink so it doesn't affect me, but I do concede that in this sense the European laws are more fair, just like their steroid and narcotic laws are. As for smoking in public places, they are just behind there. (behind but catching up). When I first started college in the U.S. (1991), we were allowed to smoke in the cafeteria. By 1995 smoking was banned in most U.S. college campuses completely. At the time when it was limited in the U.S., in German Schools they were smoking in the classrooms. When I got to Germany in 1997, they only allowed smoking in the stairways. I don't know if they have banned it all together yet. But I think they eventually will. Its just the way things happen. More and more people are realizing that smoking is harmful and serves no purpose, so less people are doing it. This makes the non-smokers the majority. They in turn will impose their health concerns onto the minority. I agree with it to point of, "Your freedom ends when my nose begins." By that I mean that if I am taking a class, I shouldn't be forced to breathe all the second hand smoke from some jackass in the class with me. But I oppose any laws that ban smoking outdoors. Such laws have already been passed in certain cities.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #50 March 31, 2005 I do not think I am more free, but I am certain that I am more fat than I was a year ago today.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
