Would this have happened if the US stayed out of Iraq?

[rushmc 23]

I don't think so.....


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/23/international/worldspecial/23iraq.html?oref=login

Published: March 23, 2005


AGHDAD, Iraq, March 22 - Ordinary Iraqis rarely strike back at the insurgents who terrorize their country. But just before noon on Tuesday, a carpenter named Dhia saw a troop of masked gunmen with grenades coming toward his shop here and decided he had had enough.

As the gunmen emerged from their cars, Dhia and his young relatives shouldered their Kalashnikov rifles and opened fire, the police and witnesses said. In the fierce gun battle that followed, three of the insurgents were killed, and the rest fled just after the police arrived. Two of Dhia's nephews and a bystander were wounded, the police said.

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"We attacked them before they attacked us," said Dhia, 35, his face still contorted with rage and excitement, as he stood barefoot outside his home a few hours after the battle, a 9-millimeter pistol in his hand. He would not give his last name.

"We killed three of those who call themselves the mujahedeen," he said. "I am waiting for the rest of them to come, and we will show them."

It was the first time that private citizens are known to have retaliated successfully against the insurgents. There have been anecdotal reports of residents shooting at attackers after a bombing or an assassination. But the gun battle on Tuesday erupted in full view of at least a dozen witnesses, including a Justice Ministry official who lives nearby.

The battle was the latest sign that Iraqis may be willing to start standing up against the attacks that leave dozens dead here nearly every week.

After a suicide bombing in Hilla last month that killed 136 people, including a number of women and children, hundreds of residents demonstrated in front of the city hall every day for almost a week, chanting slogans against terrorism. Last week a smaller but similar rally took place in Firdos Square in downtown Baghdad. Another demonstration in the capital is scheduled for Wednesday.

Like many of the attacks here, Tuesday's fight had sectarian overtones. Dhia and his family are Shiite Arabs, and they cook for religious festivals at the Shiite Husseiniya Mosque across from his shop. The insurgents are largely Sunni Arabs, and they have aimed dozens of attacks at Shiite figures, celebrations and even funerals.

The conflict has grown sharper in the last year, with Shiites dominating Iraq's new police force and army and holding a narrow majority in the newly elected national assembly.

In the past, Shiite religious leaders have counseled against revenge after attacks. But there are indications that some are no longer willing to turn the other cheek. Last fall an armed group called the Anger Brigade was formed after attacks on Shiite pilgrims south of Baghdad.

Elsewhere in Iraq, insurgents continued their campaign of violence. In the northern city of Mosul, 4 civilians were killed Tuesday morning and 14 were wounded when a roadside bomb detonated near an American military convoy, health officials said. The bomb did not appear to harm the convoy, witnesses said, but destroyed four or five civilian cars that were passing near it on the Sunharib bridge in the city center.

On Monday evening in Mosul, 17 insurgents were killed in a gun battle after they ambushed a convoy of Iraqi security officers, The Associated Press reported.

In Anbar Province, the violence-plagued area west of Baghdad, gunmen kidnapped six Iraqi soldiers on Tuesday as they walked to a bus station, The A.P. reported.

Dhia's gun battle on Tuesday unfolded in Doura, a working-class neighborhood in southern Baghdad where much of the capital's violence is concentrated. Killings and bombings have taken place there in recent weeks, and the police acknowledge that they have little control. Before the fight, an Interior Ministry official was gunned down in Doura as he drove to work, officials said.

Witnesses saw the gunmen circling near the Husseiniya Mosque in three cars just before the violence started, said Amjad Hamid, 25, who works at the Justice Ministry. They stopped near Dhia's shop, across from the mosque. The men carried pistols and rifles, and one had a belt full of hand grenades, he said. They drove an Oldsmobile, a gray Honda and a red Volkswagen Passat.

When the shooting began, Mr. Hamid said, his mother ran outside shouting his name and was struck by bullets in the leg and the ear.

After the insurgents fled, without the Honda, one was left behind, the Doura police chief said. That gunman broke into a nearby house and hid there, holding the residents at gunpoint until his friends arrived and drove him away, the police chief said.

The owner of the house, who spoke on condition that he not be identified, said the gunman had entered through the garage and made his way to the living room. "I heard the screaming of the women," the owner said, "so I went to see what was the matter, and I saw a man holding an AK-47."

The owner said the gunman then shouted: "Keep me here for a short time until I can leave the area or I will kill you all. I don't want anyone to leave this room."

They obeyed. The gunman telephoned some friends and stayed for about an hour until they arrived to pick him up. Before he left, the owner of the house said, he issued a final warning: "If you scream or call the police, my friends will come and kill you. They know where you are."

Two of Dhia's nephews who were with him during the attack, one 13, the other 24, were wounded, family members said. After the police arrived, they recovered the bodies of the three dead insurgents, who were identified through documents in their clothing as Abdul Razzaq Hamid, Abdul Hamid Abed and Zaid Safaa, officials said.

Hours later, Dhia was still furiously cursing the insurgents when he spoke to a reporter outside the front gate of his home, a short walk from his shop. A Shiite cleric standing nearby quickly told him to stop talking, and he went silent.

Meanwhile, a group of armed neighborhood men stood watch on the roof of the house.

"I am sure they will be back," one of the guards said. "We killed three of them."

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,465]

First of all, we would never know since it wouldn't be reported.

Second, Iraq had more people owning guns than the US. You would think the occasional shoot out happened.

So, really there is no way of answering your question.

[miked10270 0]

What a heartwarming story about what IS a nasty civil war!

Iraq STILL suffers from too many guns and too little government.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[sfzombie13 324]

sadaam would never have tolerated terrorist attacks in his country. had we not been there, they would not have had to try to drive us out.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[rushmc 23]

You are right.......they would be spending more effort trying to kill us here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[shropshire 0]

WTF - easy to say but belittled by lack of evidence dont you think?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[penniless 0]

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WTF - easy to say but belittled by lack of evidence dont you think?

No evidence, but true in their own minds, though.

[freethefly 6]

At no time was the U.S. ever in danger of an attack by SH. For as crazy as he may appear, he knew far to better than to all out mess with the Federal Government. Given a bit more time is reign would had eventually collapsed and in fighting amongst his most loyal would had sealed it. Now imagine what the world would be like had the U.S. had invaded Russia during the cold war. A pre-empted attack on communism would not had brought the Berlin wall down any faster. It would had only foster more hatred towards the U.S.. Much like the invasion into Iraq. But then it is much easier to attack a country that has no real weapon other than a handful of loyalist.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rushmc 23]

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At no time was the U.S. ever in danger of an attack by SH. For as crazy as he may appear, he knew far to better than to all out mess with the Federal Government. Given a bit more time is reign would had eventually collapsed and in fighting amongst his most loyal would had sealed it. Now imagine what the world would be like had the U.S. had invaded Russia during the cold war. A pre-empted attack on communism would not had brought the Berlin wall down any faster. It would had only foster more hatred towards the U.S.. Much like the invasion into Iraq. But then it is much easier to attack a country that has no real weapon other than a handful of loyalist.

I don't agree with most of your post. different situations and circumstances..........and more and more information is coming out that indicated that SH was at least indirectly involved with 911. As for the hatred thing? The hatred was already there. Taking out SH has not changed that at all IMHO.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[freethefly 6]

I fully respect your opinion, yet I see it basically that the Federal Government fear Islamic Rule and off shoot reigns, such as SH, much like they feared communism. It is ideology vs the opposite. In all the known history of the humanrace had there ever been a space of pure peace and goodwill towards each other the world over? No, never. I am sure that before written history, too, has there never been a real peace. Humans are destine to kill one another for one reason or another. That is how it has always been and will always be. Someone who does not share the same view we naturally feel some animosity and suspect the worst. I believe that it is instinctual for humans to feel this way as a protection device. This makes us no differant than an alley cat peering out from the darkness ready to pounce. If given a chance. Given the culture of our society, it makes it real difficult to trust a stranger. Now, that is just sad.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rushmc 23]

Quote

I fully respect your opinion, yet I see it basically that the Federal Government fear Islamic Rule and off shoot reigns, such as SH, much like they feared communism. It is ideology vs the opposite. In all the known history of the humanrace had there ever been a space of pure peace and goodwill towards each other the world over? No, never. I am sure that before written history, too, has there never been a real peace. Humans are destine to kill one another for one reason or another. That is how it has always been and will always be. Someone who does not share the same view we naturally feel some animosity and suspect the worst. I believe that it is instinctual for humans to feel this way as a protection device. This makes us no differant than an alley cat peering out from the darkness ready to pounce. If given a chance. Given the culture of our society, it makes it real difficult to trust a stranger. Now, that is just sad.

Well written and for the most part I (sadly) agree. However, we can not ignore the the possibilities change may bring. (Nothing ventured nothing gained comes to mind.) If what is happening in Irag today fails, then it fails but, two thoughts come to mind.
1) We have learned that what was tried there did not work and we all can learn from it and,
2) This attempt at change does not make GWB evil as some like to say. (I am not implying anything about your opinion)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

[ If what is happening in Irag today fails, then it fails but, two thoughts come to mind.
1) We have learned that what was tried there did not work and we all can learn from it and,
2) This attempt at change does not make GWB evil as some like to say. (I am not implying anything about your opinion)

You are wrong here - today, to try and to fail is now a much worse sin regardless of what you are trying to accomplish even if the cause is noble. And if you have politics involved, even to try and succeed is a failure because there will always be those to pick at it or the motivations of each person involved.

Lesson learned? never try, be bland, don't rock the boat,

better to just eat pie, and sit quietly

Even better, wait until someone else tries something and then jump on the bandwagon to beat them down, pat each other on the back, eat pie,

anyone feeling cynical today?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

[ If what is happening in Irag today fails, then it fails but, two thoughts come to mind.
1) We have learned that what was tried there did not work and we all can learn from it and,
2) This attempt at change does not make GWB evil as some like to say. (I am not implying anything about your opinion)

You are wrong here - today, to try and to fail is now a much worse sin regardless of what you are trying to accomplish even if the cause is noble. And if you have politics involved, even to try and succeed is a failure because there will always be those to pick at it or the motivations of each person involved.

Lesson learned? never try, be bland, don't rock the boat,

better to just eat pie, and sit quietly

Even better, wait until someone else tries something and then jump on the bandwagon to beat them down, pat each other on the back, eat pie,

anyone feeling cynical today?

I make the assumption that your post is tongue in cheek?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

Not entirely, but by tomorrow I'll say it is.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sfzombie13 324]

the one thing that comes to mind here is a quote i read in a magazine by a general: "we are not conquerors, we come to bring peace and stability" or something to that effect. it was a british general in iraq in the early 1900's. i'm not in the frame of mind to remember exactly, it was a smithsonian issue from mar 04. the article showed what happened after 60 years of trying to insert a democracy in iraq: sadaam hussein. it was really informative and eerily similar to the way things are unfolding now. what was it about those who don't learn from the past? anyone?

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[billvon 3,107]

>We have learned that what was tried there did not work and we all can learn from it . . .

Agreed, and I hope that is the case. I fear it will not be. Based on what I have seen so far, it is far easier to redefine failures to make them into successes than it is to admit failure. Some people see this as a contest, and to win the contest they have to prove that their side 'won.'

>This attempt at change does not make GWB evil as some like to say.

Also agreed. It just makes him a poor decision maker. To his credit he does seem to be learning from some of his mistakes.

[kallend 2,146]

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> To his credit he does seem to be learning from some of his mistakes.

Really? Can you provide an example?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rickjump1 0]

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> To his credit he does seem to be learning from some of his mistakes.

Really? Can you provide an example?

He is going with European diplomacy concerning Iran, and he is letting the Chinese deal more with North Korea for the moment. All this can change of course. The man has softened.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>We have learned that what was tried there did not work and we all can learn from it . . .

Agreed, and I hope that is the case. I fear it will not be. Based on what I have seen so far, it is far easier to redefine failures to make them into successes than it is to admit failure. Some people see this as a contest, and to win the contest they have to prove that their side 'won.'

>This attempt at change does not make GWB evil as some like to say.

Also agreed. It just makes him a poor decision maker. To his credit he does seem to be learning from some of his mistakes.

Your post presumes GWB has failed in Irag. I don't agree. I think the successes are being ignored and the operation is being reported as a failure. I don't think Irag is a failure or will be viewed in the future as a failure. (much like Japan and Germany)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln