Gun professionals screw up.

[JohnRich 4]

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Oh, blah blah blah. Grocery stores aren't necessary either because we could all grow our own food. To maintain a comfortable standard living in today's society, those things are necessary. Guns are not.

Parachutes aren't necessary either.

It would be a pretty dull world if we were restricted to owning and using only those things which are necessary for a "comfortable" living. We would also be a lot less free.

Oh, and how comfortable can you be if thugs always have the upper hand on you anytime they want to attack you, because you are unable to defend yourself? That's not comfortable at all - that's survival of the fittest.

[billvon 3,131]

>Read what's there, Bill. My "knee-jerk" reaction was a simple reply to
>her post, and I didn't mention banning guns in that reply.

Kennedy: "Don't bother explaining how banning guns isn't shitting on a personal freedom."

>The idea of banning guns came up when she continued on with others;
>the "guns aren't necessary" bit.

Skydiving isn't necessary. Most people, even people here, agree with that. That does not equate to "it should be banned" - unless, of course, you pre-decide what attitude anyone who argues with you has.

[metalslug 36]

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Maybe it will climb all the way down to the murder rate in Britain, France, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Spain, Ireland, Denmark, Japan or Germany.

Ah, c'mon kallend, surely you consider that it's possible (and likely IMO) that the low murder rate in these countries is more of a cultural phenomenon than an arms law issue?
It may be worth noting aswell that the populations in these countries are a mere fraction of the US population.

Although I admit that I have no statistics to 'prove' anything, I am convinced that some nations are simply more violent and less sophisticated than other nations in today's times.
How much business does a gunshop in Belgium do in a year anyway?
Probably not a roaring trade, not many interested buyers.

Take away the guns in a violent country and the murder rate may decline somewhat, because it's less easy to kill, but the desire and the attitude towards murder is not likely to change. Arms have a way of making people equal. In their absence, the most aggressive will defeat the most defenseless.

[AggieDave 6]

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Arms have a way of making people equal. In their absence, the most aggressive will defeat the most defenseless.

You're not going to get him to believe anything reasonable. We've shown the numbers over and over again, showing in states with a CCW laws in place how dramaticly violent crime rates have dropped compared to other states in the US. Also, when you compare population numbers and violent crime rates with other countries then the numbers start to even out.

The cultural differences have even been discussed at length as well.


Some people refuse to believe the facts, even when presented concisely and accurately, which is strange since all the real engineers in the field doing real engineering work I personally know tend to listen to facts and numbers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,175]

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Arms have a way of making people equal. In their absence, the most aggressive will defeat the most defenseless.

You're not going to get him to believe anything reasonable. We've shown the numbers over and over again, showing in states with a CCW laws in place how dramaticly violent crime rates have dropped compared to other states in the US. Also, when you compare population numbers and violent crime rates with other countries then the numbers start to even out.

The cultural differences have even been discussed at length as well.


Some people refuse to believe the facts, even when presented concisely and accurately, which is strange since all the real engineers in the field doing real engineering work I personally know tend to listen to facts and numbers.

Chicago murder rate dropped 41% in 2 years without a CCW law. Your "data" are worthless and prove nothing.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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Your "data" are worthless and prove nothing.

You must mean "your 'data' is worthless and proves nothing." Not bad Prof, not bad.


That's fine, if you refuse to listen to national and international experts such as the FBI and the CDC then that's your own problem.

Do you discount other experts in other fields as well? How about physics and engineering experts? If you disagree with their opinion and their opinion is held as the standard, do you also diagree with no proof or substance except your own opinion?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,131]

>You must mean "your 'data' is worthless and proves nothing."

If you were to be deadly pedantic about it, you could claim that "your data are worthless" is correct. The singular would be "your datum is worthless."

[AggieDave 6]

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If you were to be deadly pedantic about it, you could claim that "your data are worthless" is correct. The singular would be "your datum is worthless."

Sweet.

Lets make it more fun...*AggieDave looks around for his dictionary*

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 2,175]

The word data is the plural of Latin datum, neuter past participle of dare, "to give", hence "something given".

As I was saying...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

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The word data is the plural of Latin datum, neuter past participle of dare, "to give", hence "something given".

As I was saying...

Bill and I covered that already, thanks though. I think he even posted the reply on the satalite connection system that he designed as an engineer... I'll pass along the definitions to the engrish dept.

Anyways, feel free to read the rest of my post as well, or just continue to selectively read what you want and drift away into the margins.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kennedy 0]

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Chicago murder rate dropped 41% in 2 years without a CCW law. Your "data" are worthless and prove nothing.

Of course they don't. You've made up your mind, so let's not confuse you with the facts.

Have any of us ever claimed that only pro-gun rights law can reduce crime? That fact that crime went down without the laws hardly proves that the laws don't reduce crime.

I also have an interesting question about your 41% drop. Did any new gun control laws get passed that can take credit?

As we have shown you, and you ignore, every single state that adopted shall issue concealed carry experienced a signicifcant drop in total numbers and relative to other states.

Can any type of gun control legislation claim that?
(hint: the answer is a two letter word, comprised of consecutive letters)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Have any of us ever claimed that only pro-gun rights law can reduce crime?

Nope, but you have often claimed that from the opposing side.

Take England for instance and their increase in crime after their gun control efforts. let's say the different way of collecting statistics has nothing to do with it. Are you now finally willing to concede that those gun control laws may have nothing to do with it and that there are many other variables ta play?

Or, do you want your cake and eat it to?

[Kennedy 0]

My point was many things other than gun laws can affect crime. That's why it's useful to study, say, across th board trends during many years, and see if there is a relationship between gun laws and crime.

Oh, wait, it's been done. Pro-gun rights laws reduced crimes, and gun control laws correlated with rises in crime.

Sorry, dekker, but no one has ever found any correlation, much less causation, between gun control laws and reductions in crime. But hey, don't let realitty slow you down in your quest.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Sorry, dekker, but no one has ever found any correlation, much less causation, between gun control laws and reductions in crime. But hey, don't let realitty slow you down in your quest.

fair enough, but is it your claim that the opposite is true though? That there is correlation or even causation between gun freedom and reduction in crime?

[AggieDave 6]

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That there is correlation or even causation between gun freedom and reduction in crime?

Actually, yes it is true. I've posted facts and data more then a couple time showing drastic drops in violent crime rates the year and years following the passing of a CCW law in a state.

You can take my word or search for the data I've posted before, or just not believe me at all since I'm not going to go to the trouble of reposting all of that data.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Actually, yes it is true. I've posted facts and data more then a couple time showing drastic drops in violent crime rates the year and years following the passing of a CCW law in a state.

You can take my word or search for the data I've posted before, or just not believe me at all since I'm not going to go to the trouble of reposting all of that data.

yeah, but that doesn't prove anything. Like, any other variables at play?

[AggieDave 6]

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yeah, but that doesn't prove anything. Like, any other variables at play?

I covered that before.

Ok, tell you what, I'm fix'n to leave to go to the DZ, so you can believe me or not or search for the data. Eitherway, its perfect outside and I'm gonna go work with some students, get some good instruction skydiving done then go do some hop&swooping.

Take care.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

Clearly it's part of a cultural phenomenon.

In the US, gun ownership is part of the cultural phenomenon.

To acknowledge that does not dismiss the relevance.

The bigger question becomes "which culture works better". To me, the answer is clear, obviously others disagree.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[dmkellett 0]

hey,

just my honest opinion. never read or post in these sections of dz .com but this story made me chuckle. then i read a little of the posts which made me laugh too.

the gun debate goes on and on in the states, and an awefull lot of the rest of the world sits back and watches. it is a shame, as i used to be somone who just said ban em all..... but after actually spending time in the states for a while i have come to the conclusion that you guys actually may need them.

the only reason for this is how far gone the situation has got.......... i agree in the civil war (ish) days the ability to bear arms(note a pistol with shite capability to kill) was more then likely needed.

but to extrapolate that into some crazy western style GOD given right to buy modern high velocity assault weapons in your supermarkets is very scary indeed. its just if you are brought up with it and you see it every day in Wally World it makes you angry if people say its wrong.

I thinks its utterly insane. But as i said earlier probably needed in most of the (middle or bottom ) bits of the USA.

I have been a member of the armed services and fired lots of guns, i even enjoy taking a drive to the local machine gun rental store in tampa and dealing out some justice to the culturally stereotyped dudes in head scarfs that you can buy for a dollar extra when you rent your AR-15. I had a great time dont get me wrong.......!!!!

And i know very little about your politics, statistics either way or most of the other relevant gun stuff.

But i see a simple correlation.....

Most of europe = guns illegal = low number of civilians with holes in them.


Usa = everybody has a tool = every body gets shot.


i dont care if their legally held that do the killing or not, you cannot deny the simple truth of less guns = less of a chance of havin a KAp in YO aSS............

D

[Kennedy 0]

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i agree in the civil war (ish) days the ability to bear arms(note a pistol with shite capability to kill) was more then likely needed.

but to extrapolate that into some crazy western style GOD given right to buy modern high velocity assault weapons in your supermarkets is very scary indeed. its just if you are brought up with it and you see it every day in Wally World it makes you angry if people say its wrong.

(A) The right to keep and bear arms dates to the revolutionary war, not the civil war (late 1700 rather than 1860s).

(B) If the second amendment only applies to flintlock firearms, then the first amendment only applies to printing presses.

(C) Please describe to me what you consider an "assault weapon."

(D) People everywhere recognize the right to self defense (though a few governments don't). Here in the USA, we believe people should have the choice as to how they wish to defend themselves.

(E) Save your "crazy western" comments. Gun rights laws don't result in wild west shootouts. They result in less crime.

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But as i said earlier probably needed in most of the (middle or bottom ) bits of the USA.

Actually, those are the safest parts of the USA. The most dangerous areas are Chicago, Philadelphia, and various cities along the east and west coast (those would be top, right and left, not middle and bottom)

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But i see a simple correlation.....

Most of europe = guns illegal = low number of civilians with holes in them.

USA = everybody has a tool = every body gets shot.

(A) Yes, the USA has a higher murder rate than many other countries, and yes we have the freedom to keep and bear arms throughout most of the country. However, you noticed a correlation. That is very different from causation.

(B) Here in the USA our overall victimization rate is about 4%. In England it is over 26%. It is also higher in most other European countries than in the USA. Does that mean guns cause murder but prevent crime? No. It means there are significant differences that make cross-country comparisons very difficult, if not impossible, and your noticed correlation nothing more than an interesting side note.

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i dont care if their legally held that do the killing or not, you cannot deny the simple truth of less guns = less of a chance of havin a KAp in YO aSS

Actually I can deny that. Here in the USA, states with higher firearms ownership have lower crime rates. The most dangerous cities in the USA are inside states with very stringent gun control. Also, after states pass gun rights laws, their crime rates drop faster than other states.

ps - would it make you happier to know you'd been killed by anything else rather than a gun? If not, then you need to consider that cultural differences cause our differing crime rates and murder rates, not our guns.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[dmkellett 0]

like i said , i dont know much stats etc.... and i know some of you guys can get a little protective of ur guns.....

but it took the buscuit for me when visiting my brother in CO (bailey) on a sunny sat. afternoon with my family we were playing (note not very noisy) tunes out side his mountain house and the neighbour (who knew my bro and his wife and baby well) came out brandishing his side by side shotgun to ask if we could turn the tunes down.

my old man went over to tell him to put the cannon down and got told he would be shot if he stepped onto "MA LAAAND"

we went inside.

it is a jungle out there.........

[kelpdiver 2]

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but it took the buscuit for me when visiting my brother in CO (bailey) on a sunny sat. afternoon with my family we were playing (note not very noisy) tunes out side his mountain house and the neighbour (who knew my bro and his wife and baby well) came out brandishing his side by side shotgun to ask if we could turn the tunes down.

Brandishing in that manner is not permitted in most, if all states.

[kallend 2,175]

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but it took the buscuit for me when visiting my brother in CO (bailey) on a sunny sat. afternoon with my family we were playing (note not very noisy) tunes out side his mountain house and the neighbour (who knew my bro and his wife and baby well) came out brandishing his side by side shotgun to ask if we could turn the tunes down.

Brandishing in that manner is not permitted in most, if all states.

Neither is murder. So there are no murders in the USA?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[justinb138 0]

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but it took the buscuit for me when visiting my brother in CO (bailey) on a sunny sat. afternoon with my family we were playing (note not very noisy) tunes out side his mountain house and the neighbour (who knew my bro and his wife and baby well) came out brandishing his side by side shotgun to ask if we could turn the tunes down.

Brandishing in that manner is not permitted in most, if all states.

Neither is murder. So there are no murders in the USA?

Neither is arson, do you have a point?

[kallend 2,175]

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Quote

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but it took the buscuit for me when visiting my brother in CO (bailey) on a sunny sat. afternoon with my family we were playing (note not very noisy) tunes out side his mountain house and the neighbour (who knew my bro and his wife and baby well) came out brandishing his side by side shotgun to ask if we could turn the tunes down.

Brandishing in that manner is not permitted in most, if all states.

Neither is murder. So there are no murders in the USA?

Neither is arson, do you have a point?

Yes.

Think.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.