DEA agent shoots himself in foot while giving a gun safety talk in school

[Kennedy 0]

Bill, you and I have had this argument.

1. Guns aren't dangerous just like rigs aren't dangerous.
2. Using guns and using rigs are both very dangerous when proper precautions aren't taken.
3. When everything is done right, shooting is less dangerous than skydiving.

When you want to argue nubmer three, use all skydiving accidental and negligent injuries, and all shooting accidental and negligent injuries.
(yes, that precludes crimes from the discussion)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[billvon 3,120]

>This idiot is no expert. he is one of those guys who thinks he knows more
> than everyone else on earth, and he daydreams during safety briefings.

Sounds like the typical skydiver! But I digress . . .

I have no idea if he's an expert. I don't even know the guy. But he was trained in gun handling for his job, was asked to give a talk as an expert on gun safety, and proclaimed himself an expert on the subject. There are people out there carrying guns with less training than he got and who are _not_ seen as experts.

Again, I know plenty of expert skydivers. Many of them are much better than I am, have been skydiving for decades, regularly medal at nationals etc. If they go in due to a no-pull, I suppose you might decide they are idiots for failing to follow the _one_ rule that is drilled into all skydivers. But if such people are not good enough to be safe skydivers, I would worry how you see the rest of the people in the sport.

[Kennedy 0]

Bill, really, why do you keep up with these goofy scenarios, and why do you put words in my mouth before i can reply?

If you, or any other jumper goes in on a no-pull, my first thought is not that "this guy was an idiot," but rather to wonder what prevented him from pulling. Was he knocked out? Busted arm? Something I can't think of?

However, there is nothing to wonder about in this case. The guy didn't clear his firearm properly, didn't keep his finger off the trigger, and didn't keep it pointed in a safe direction. I'm gjust glad he didn't have it pointed at a kid instead of himself. Forget the expert signifier. He isn't even safe to be around when he's armed.

ps - aren't there three rules for jumpers?
Pull, Pull at altitude, and Pull level?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[craddock 0]

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How many "amateur" gun owners, including CCW holders, are as well trained as a DEA agent?

I could care less how well someone is trained in sharpshooting, rapid fire, ect., so long as they are competent to handle a weapon. Yesterday I fired 150 rounds thru my 1911 .45, 200 thru my .22, and 100 thru my 1187 on the Sporting Clays Course. I shot less round than many except with the .22. I would bet that everyone I met at the range was MUCH more competent than this DEA guy. It is so simple to clear a gun and be 100% sure of it. I question how much you really know about guns.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[SpeedRacer 1]

did you notice how the guy's assistants on the right start to pull out that rifle & everyone starts freaking out? You can hear a woman's voice (probably a teacher) say "Put it down! Now!"

Everyone in the room had just lost all confidence in these guys!

Speed Racer
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[kelpdiver 2]

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>That language implies that the weapon is more hurt than protection . . .

Not at all. See, that's an assumption you're making. It's like saying "AAD's can hurt you or help you", which is 100% true, and is critical to realize when you jump with one. A rabid pro-AAD person might say "Hey! You're saying AAD's are deadly and you shouldn't use them!" Which is completely missing the point.

nope, it's not even close. You said those who believe guns will protect them are wrong. The qualifiers don't alter that summary statement.

I suppose maybe it is fair - the Cypres has saved something in the land of 1000 people, and in a few cases was unable to perform its role. That's about the ratio I'd see with gun ownership too.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A DEA agent may be far more qualified to talk on the subject than a random teacher, but it doesn't make him an expert.

How many "amateur" gun owners, including CCW holders, are as well trained as a DEA agent?

First off, the two statements aren't related, unless you define "expert" at the 51st percentile. But out of the near 100million gun owners, only a small number manage to shoot themselves unintentionally. That would put this "expert" somewhere in the 1st precentile.

It's not like the situation was complicated. As Kennedy details, he broke 3 of the 4 basic safety rules.

FBI agents are well known for their gun skills. Cops in a more generic sense are not. They don't train that often even at a range, and rarely if ever need to use their gun in the line of duty. CCW holders as a whole would be in between. The average gun owner, which wouldn't be very distinct from the average American, almost certainly trains less often than cops do. I won't guess with the DEA, other than to hope it's better than the ATF types.

But none of that has anything to do with this person's ability to teach gun safety. The facts of what happened speak loudly.

[lurch 0]

Bill....

You can be legally blind, of very low intelligence, and have no legs or one arm and still be a safe skydiver. In fact, I know people who meet all those criteria, and are safe skydivers.

You know a very safe blind, stupid, legless one armed skydiver?
Who is it? I gotta jump with this guy.... Thats one determined motherfucker.... How does he flare? Does he have a prosthesis for the missing arm? Hook turns, every time....

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[kallend 2,150]

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It's all OK, guns save lives.

Doctor, how can you work on a campus within eyesight of CHA projects and not feel the slightest unsafe at times? The AFROTC det at IIT that I graduated from advised people to not wander off campus at night unless you were going to a completely different area of town...



.

Using one's brain is better protection than any gun. Just because you don't understand has no bearing on it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bobsled92 0]

Of course. Nor do guns protect your life; using your brain, whether or not you have a gun, does. No gun has ever leapt from its holster and shot either its owner _or_ an intruder.

__________________________________________________
I have been shot before.
I own a vest but, not a gun.
I have a temper and will not own a gun for that reason.
Using my brain, I have learned to stay clear of situations & even changed jobs to do so.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[Zenister 0]

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Using one's brain is better protection than any gun. Just because you don't understand has no bearing on it.

unfortunately brains dont stop bullets.. they might help you prevent the escalation of hostilities, but in some cases nothing you can say or do will change an aggressors action..

and equally unfortunately there is no parry for incoming fire... the only 'defensive response' available is more accurate outgoing...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[AggieDave 6]

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and equally unfortunately there is no parry for incoming fire... the only 'defensive response' available is more accurate outgoing..

I'm going to laugh my ass off if Kallend comes back to say you don't know what you're talking about.

That would be like me trying to teach the Prof about physics...HA! I couldn't pass Engineering Calculus at A&M much less physics.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 3,120]

>unfortunately brains dont stop bullets.. they might help you prevent
> the escalation of hostilities, but in some cases nothing you can say
> or do will change an aggressors action..

Guns don't stop bullets either, unfortunately. Indeed, a gun in a tense situation will often increase the lead/air ratio.

[Zenister 0]

very true.. but once the shooting does start those without guns are at an extreme disadvantage...I can honestly say i dont like guns, i dont like the so called 'equality' they bring, or the increased lethality they grant to anyone who can point and squeeze, and if i could snap my fingers and 'turn off' gun powder i certainly would...but i agree (to a certain extent) with those who equate a firearm with an AAD. Its better to have it and never need it, than need it and not have it... neither of which should affect how you behave in any given instance..

it all comes down to training and attitude.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[skycop 0]

I've read the whole thread and I agree with Billvon (kinda scary huh?).
I drew the same conclusions. Even good people screw up, even good people do stupid things.
Many top-notch jumpers kill or injure themselves doing not so smart things.
This agent screwed up royally and I'm sure he paid for it medically, then administratively.
I've been in law enforcement for a long time, if you're around firearms long enough accidents ARE going to happen. This doesn't make them acceptable, but reality dictates this. You learn from them and look at preventive measures.
When I taught the DARE program I used to disassemble my Glock in the classroom (yes it was loaded). I took extreme care when doing this, as I always do. I would then go into a firearms safety speech. This agent was doing the same, except he managed to shoot himself.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[jeiber 0]

I think everyone is being a little harsh in calling this guy an idiot. Look how nervous he is - pacing around in front of the audience, no real flow to his speech. He's probably a very competent agent, but taken out of his environment, his nervousness led to mistakes. In a high stress situation, people make mistakes. Period. I know of several incidents very similar to this that have occured over the years. These people weren't idiots, they were under stress speaking publicly, and made mistakes. One guy shot himself in the gut, then staggered off stage.

Watching the video, the agent made a number of mistakes, no sense harping on those any further. Notice how much attention he was giving the firearm, and how much attention he was giving the crowd. THERE is the problem.

In regards to the 'expert' comments. A police officer is an expert in law enforcement, not firearms safety. I use a computer as a tool to do my job, but it doesn't make me and computer expert. I know many police officers that never draw or fire their weapon, other than mandatory qualification. I met a Naval 'Firearms Instructor' at a gun range that was nervously trying to supervise his young friends. I know a guy who accidentally discharged a .45 round into the dash of a U.S. Marshall's car - his experience included combat with 3rd Ranger Bat. He's kind of an idiot, but the point is these people could be considered experts to a school principal that has never fired a gun. Dress any of these people up in a uniform, and poof, instant credibility.

Not only did this affect the guy's career, but his friends are going to harass the crap out of him for a looong while. After watching it a few times, I started laughing my ass off! My favorite line: "Now they probably won't let me ever show guns again!" Bwahahahahaha! Gee, ya think???

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[jeiber 0]

***I think it's pretty obvious he either wasn't trained properly, or was and is just an idiot.***

Poor guy, can you imagine the rash of crap his fellow agents gave him?!?! He'll NEVER live that one down - they'll be bringing that up until the day he retires! I think the best part is when he says, 'and now I'll probably never be allowed to show guns again'.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[skycop 0]

Very well put!! Could'nt agree more.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Newbie 0]

The funny thing is, as soon as he says "They will probably never let me show guns again" he immediately goes "OkBrian bring that other gun out"

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[kelpdiver 2]

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I drew the same conclusions. Even good people screw up, even good people do stupid things.
Many top-notch jumpers kill or injure themselves doing not so smart things.

Sure, but how many top jumpers die doing a straight in, no risers landing approach with a 1.0 WL?

[JohnRich 4]

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Using one's brain is better protection than any gun.

Ah yes, Kallend's long-tried and long-untrue argument that everyone who becomes a victim of crime was just stupid.

[JohnRich 4]

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Guns don't stop bullets either, unfortunately. Indeed, a gun in a tense situation will often increase the lead/air ratio.

Witness the school shooting yesterday in Minnesota. What stopped the bad guy with the gun? Good guys that showed up with more guns. The presence of counter-fire capability ended the shooting spree. The shooter knew his gig was up.

Perhaps you would have preferred that the troubled kid have been free to keep on shooting, so as not to increase the lead/air ratio.

There is a difference between bad gun usage, and good gun usage. Some people seem to think that all gun usages are bad. It's not the mere usage of the gun that makes it bad, it is how it is used that counts. And increasing the lead/air ratio in self defense to minimize casualties amongst the good guys, is a good thing.

If you disagree with me, then perhaps you advocate disarming all police officers?

[Botellines 0]

I think JohnRich is right in this one. At the beggining of the school year we should be giving students the books along with their choice of handgun. That will make the school safer.
I would propose shotguns for teachers and an AK47 for the principal.

[jeiber 0]

Ooops, didn't mean to post both those... a little redundant. Got distracted with work and forgot I already responded... duh! Moderators, feel free to delete that second post.... It was pointless and redundant.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Kennedy 0]

You do know how utterly ridiculous your posts are, right?

Either you simply are unable to understand what John is actually saying, which I doubt, or you are unable to debate his points so you put idiotic words in his mouth.

I think the latter is the case. I don't know why, since it's not that hard to disagree, but you resort to pointless tactics in your post, and make any possible contribution utterly useless. This arguing "for" the other side is getting real old, real fast.

If I'm wrong, please, let me know. Did John, or any other anti-gun-control person suggest that children should have access to firearms while in school? Did John or anyone else suggest that all teachers must be armed?

Oh, and as to your comment about armed teachers, I suggest you read up on Joel Myrick before declaring that you know best for all schools. I think there are several parents who would disagree with you.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Vice+Principal+Joel+Myrick&btnG=Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Vice+Principal+Joel+Myrick&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt
http://www.freecolorado.com/1999/10/myrick.html

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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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