where are the Marxists?

[SpeedRacer 1]

We get into some pretty heated arguments here on SC, but I wonder why we don't seem to have any marxists or extreme socialists showing up here.

I was just thinking about that after walking down thestreet & seeing a poster for some socialist rally.

Don't Marxists skydive, or what?

Speed Racer
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[AggieDave 6]

Well, just like how society is supposed to make the leap from Capatalism to Socialism wasn't written about by Marx, neither was skydiving.

I've extensively studied Marx and his writings as well as socialism and the evolution of socialism throughout the world. Does that count?

(even though I'm a "conservative").

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SpeedRacer 1]

i meant people who actually support it.

Speed Racer
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[vmsfreaky1 0]

Yeah, we are around, I just dont fancy banging my head against a brick wall, arguing with right wing facists.

[AggieDave 6]

Out of curiosity, are you a true Marxist or do you believe in a form of socialism formed by other theorists and/or movements?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[vmsfreaky1 0]

more a socialist, I mainly identify with what Noam chomsky ascribes to, more of a socialist/anachist than a true marxist.

Theres lots i dont agree on with down the line marxists.

[AggieDave 6]

That's very interesting.

Looking at history, if there hadn't been a number of fundimental seperations between socialists I think many countries would have been taken by the socialists and the governments changed.

Then again, Lenin's experiment almost worked when he inacted NEP, basically a capitalist compromise with the Kulaks...if he hadn't have had a stroke who knows what would have happened.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[vmsfreaky1 0]

I agree, the differing views that developed did hold the left back and still do...

I dont know much about the Russian revolution, only the very basic, what i do know of, I don't always agree with how that revolution progressed, stalin for example, on the other hand you have castro, a fucking ledgend!

I live in hope that one day the left will get their shit together and really make a difference, but ya know thats almost like waiting for Jesus to return...not going to happen.

I truly admire minds like chomsky who cut through all that crap and control, to me it makes perfect sense, I've got a severe case of apathy though, I don't see people reacting or even registering to what people like him espouse, it's disheartening.

Bring on the revolution.

[AggieDave 6]

If you want, I could give you a short list of books to read about the October Revolution and the history through Stalin if you'd like. Its very very interesting.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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If you want, I could give you a short list of books to read about the October Revolution and the history through Stalin if you'd like. Its very very interesting.

Absolutely! I enjoy history immensly.

[tcnelson 1]

rest assured...we don't like trying to show the left wingers that the real world lies on the other side of the brick wall that you are not banging your head against.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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rest assured...we don't like trying to show the left wingers that the real world lies on the other side of the brick wall that you are not banging your head against.

Ya see? this is what we have to deal with! hehe.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I tend to think of myself as a socialist, not necessarily a Marxist, more like a socialist liberal.

None of this shouldn't come as news to my regular correspondents.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[gjhdiver 0]

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We get into some pretty heated arguments here on SC, but I wonder why we don't seem to have any marxists or extreme socialists showing up here.

I was just thinking about that after walking down thestreet & seeing a poster for some socialist rally.

Don't Marxists skydive, or what?

Marxism is rather more a philospohy of dialectical materialism based on the concept of excess value than a true political manifesto. Like the works of Lenin, it's somewhat of a hard read.

It's more used as an insult to liberals by people who have actually no idea of it's basic concepts and wouldn't sit down and read Das Kapital if you held a gun to their heads.

Another example of this is to go grab the first 17 year old punk with "Anarchy" scrawled on them and ask if they've read Kropotkin.

Most modern socialists dispensed with Marxism half a century ago. Think, Great Britain or Sweden rather than North Korea or China and you'll get the idea.

[AggieDave 6]

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Another example of this is to go grab the first 17 year old punk with "Anarchy" scrawled on them and ask if they've read Kropotkin.

Hahaha!

Man that would make good video.

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Most modern socialists dispensed with Marxism half a century ago. Think, Great Britain or Sweden rather than North Korea or China and you'll get the idea.

North Korea and China's take on Socialism is more of a take on Stalinism which is a far cry from Marxism. Great Britian and Sweden you can see an evolution of Marxist thought through a couple of splits of the socialist thinkers in the early 20th century leading towards their current belief structure. That's the simplified version...or if I can find it I wrote a 40 page paper about the evolution of socialism and the result in Great Britian a few years ago. Even then I thought 40 pages was way over simplifying what happened...but the prof wanted 25 pages and I didn't want to piss him off.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lawrocket 3]

I've read Chomsky. Interesting ideas, but I am unable to reconcile a couple of things about it, like:
1) Anarchy;
2) No private property.

He never seems to account for human nature, human selfishness and group dynamics. He also doesn't explain how one can have self-governance by no governance.

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I don't always agree with how that revolution progressed, stalin for example, on the other hand you have castro, a fucking ledgend!

I'd recommend that you take a trip to Miami sometime. Ask some of those folks how the Revolution progressed. I'll put it this way, vms - if a revolution happens down under, do you picture yourself on a harvest team for 14 hours per day every day in the summer? Trust me, most people who look to any form of Marxism or collectivism do not picture that. But they end up that way.

Again, I'd recommend you spend a couple of weeks in Miami and speak to some Cuban refugees. Honestly, I don't hear of many people hopping on ramshackle rafts to escape to Australia from New Zealand. It seems in Cuba, risking death is better for thousands than staying put.

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I live in hope that one day the left will get their shit together and really make a difference

They have. You mentioned it above, and said, "I don't always agree with how the revolution progressed." At least you can say that in Russia, the left got together and made a difference. A big difference in the lives (or deaths) of, oh, about 25 million...

And a difference in China...

And a difference in Cambodia...

And a difference in Cuba...

And a difference in Laos...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GTAVercetti 0]

The thing I do not understand about true socialism and "everyone work for the common good" is What incentive is there to be a doctor when you get paid the same as the guy who makes clothing in a factory?

I am not trying to make fun. I am serious.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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He never seems to account for human nature, human selfishness and group dynamics. He also doesn't explain how one can have self-governance by no governance.
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The thing I do not understand about true socialism and "everyone work for the common good" is What incentive is there to be a doctor when you get paid the same as the guy who makes clothing in a factory?

Yep, these are the things I don't get. It seems to me to be a natural law of the world that you get more out of life the more you put into it. Some socialist movements seem to want to remove this law.

In such a society, where is the motivation for excellence? I've only read a few things about Chomsky...he seems to want to remove wages, and somehow everyone just does the job s/he pleases, with all the unpleasant work equally distributed. In such a society, what is my incentive not to apply for the position of "Lazy Fuck-Off, First Class?"



Also, it seems to me that some socialists say they want to do away with government entirely (hence the title "libertarian socialist") But I'm having trouble imagining how such a thing could come into existence without transmogrifying into some totalitarian system. It would seem to me that there would have to be some group of people in an executive position that would be in charge of directing how everything gets distributed, and that's a hell of a lot of power to be able to control everyone's livelihood.

Speed Racer
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[FallRate 0]

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:
"I am not a Marxist." --Karl Marx

FallRate

[GTAVercetti 0]

The idea of everyone doing what they want is one that this girl I know was trying to tell me about. She and her friends actually told me, with a straight face, that "If you want to be an actor, you can. Socialism leaves you free to do whatever you want because everyone gets the necessities to live."

To which I replied, "Great, so what if everyone decides they want to be an actor?"

And she said, "Well, that would not happen."

I told her, "Fair enough, but if we all get everything we need, who would WANT to be the sewage treatment plant guy?"

She is going to get back to me on that.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[billvon 3,092]

>What incentive is there to be a doctor when you get paid the same as
>the guy who makes clothing in a factory?

Well, that's easy. Personally, I'd rather be a doctor than a textile manufacturer. The problem is how you get people to be porta-potty pumpers.

The problem is allocating work and reward to people. Capitalism isn't ideal by any means, but works a lot better than communism. Note that socialism isn't quite the same as communism; capitalism and communism are systems of economics while socialism is more government control of industry. You could easily have a socialist government in a capitalist country.

[SpeedRacer 1]

There just seems to be something very forced & artificial about eliminating the reward for high achievement.

They say "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." There's nothing in there about having to do jack shit to get those needs, other than show up & pretending to look busy.

I mean, I have an interesting job doing HIV research, and I make more money than I would have if I hadn't gone to get my graduate degree. But I had to really bust my ass to get this degree in molecular biology. Learning to clone & do research etc. isn't easy.

I wonder if I would have gone through all that stress & hard work if I knew that I'd make the same money working in the stockroom.

Speed Racer
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[GTAVercetti 0]

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>What incentive is there to be a doctor when you get paid the same as
>the guy who makes clothing in a factory?

Well, that's easy. Personally, I'd rather be a doctor than a textile manufacturer. The problem is how you get people to be porta-potty pumpers.

The problem is allocating work and reward to people. Capitalism isn't ideal by any means, but works a lot better than communism. Note that socialism isn't quite the same as communism; capitalism and communism are systems of economics while socialism is more government control of industry. You could easily have a socialist government in a capitalist country.

Communism is a narrower version of socialism. Both can refer to economic and/or social conditions. Th main difference is that in true communism, there would be no government...everything would be shared by the people. Socialism is broader: there is some type of government through whcih industry is controlled. Both are supposed to supply the same results.

In any case, that oft-quoted phrase that Speedracer mentions is funny: What if I get my abilities tested and find out that I woul dbe the best at a job I would hate? Am I just supposed to do that job because I will get what I need anyway? Even though I may hate life? Man, that sounds great.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[lawrocket 3]

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he seems to want to remove wages, and somehow everyone just does the job s/he pleases, with all the unpleasant work equally distributed.

Yep. That goes to my point. You need governance to distribute those jobs. But Chomsky is against governance. That's a problem, isn't it?

Regarding other thoughts of Marxism, I'll go to Milton Friedman. He said there are four ways of spending money:

1) Spend other people's money on other people - (who cares what they get and who cares how much it costs)

2) Spend your money on others (who cares what they get, but it better be inexpensive (i.e., giving underwear and socks for Christmas)

3) Spending others' money on yourself (price is not a limiting factor, and it'll be whatever you want)

4) Spending your own money on yourself (price is a limiting factor, and I'll get only what I want)

If everyone were spendign everyone's money on anything, you're in for some fiscal trouble...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,092]

>There just seems to be something very forced & artificial about
>eliminating the reward for high achievement.

Well, it's no more forced and artificial than paying someone tens of millions of dollars to run a company into the ground, but paying a researcher who discovers a new antibiotic RA wages. The methods capitalism uses to achieve its results are sometimes odd.

>I mean, I have an interesting job doing HIV research . . . .

And I have an interesting job doing design engineering. If I had wanted to make more money I'd have gone into management. But I make enough money that I can be somewhat choosy about what I do, and so I avoid getting promoted into some position I don't like.

Capitalism is a decent way of controlling jobs, resources, property etc but it's certainly not ideal, and can lead to some serious abuses. Here in the US we have a mix - most of our economy is capitalistic. Some is socialistic (roads, ATC, the CDC, the police) and some aspects of our society are downright communistic (the national parks.) I think the reason our system works is that we take the best of each system and mix-and-match until we get something that works for us.

> I wonder if I would have gone through all that stress & hard work if I
>knew that I'd make the same money working in the stockroom.

You could have done less work and gotten a higher-paying job; investment bankers generally do pretty well. But there's more to life than a high paying job, something that capitalism does not always take into account. Money and profit are the only drivers in pure capitalism.