minimum wage increase killed by republicans

[kelpdiver 2]

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Let's be clear about something, these are people who voluntarily enroll in a university and DON'T have to pay for the education they receive.

Let's be equally clear - if they want to pursue a field at a doctoral level, this period of indentured servitude isn't optional.

Your *one* guy may be perfectly happy, but I was at a university with thousands of striking ones.

[kmcguffee 0]

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http://www.snopes.com/...ics/quotes/tyler.asp

Whatever the source, it's still a good quote.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kallend 2,151]

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Let's be clear about something, these are people who voluntarily enroll in a university and DON'T have to pay for the education they receive.

Let's be equally clear - if they want to pursue a field at a doctoral level, this period of indentured servitude isn't optional.

Your *one* guy may be perfectly happy, but I was at a university with thousands of striking ones.

Nonsense - you always have the option of paying the tuition for the education you receive, like thousands of others. Did they force a TA or RA on you at gunpoint or something?

Apparently you believe you were entitled to a free education at someone else's expense.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

Now you're going to pretend that this sort of work is voluntary?

Like I said - I got several thousand striking grad students on one side. And you, the serf master on the other claiming how great things are for them. And how terrible it is that small business owners live off the backs of their minimum wage workers.

[kallend 2,151]

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Now you're going to pretend that this sort of work is voluntary?

Like I said - I got several thousand striking grad students on one side. And you, the serf master .

You've said that a half dozen times now. I consider it a personal attack.

Having a job is a basic requirement in our society unless you were born with a silver spoon. Being in a PhD program is not a requirement, it's a luxury. Apparently you think you should have been handed yours for free. YOU ALWAYS HAD THE OPTION OF ACTUALLY PAYING FOR THE EDUCATION YOU RECEIVED.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[larsrulz 0]

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Graduate education is NOT an entitlement program.

There are 3000 colleges and universities in the USA, I'm sure some of them even accept ungrateful folks who complain about getting an expensive education for free.

My one assistant right now works way less than 12 hours per week for me, in exchange for which he gets free tuition through his PhD degree, + room and board and book allowance. He is very happy with the arrangement.

Let's be clear about something, these are people who voluntarily enroll in a university and DON'T have to pay for the education they receive.

Let's be clear about something else, the above is far from the norm and you very well know this; that or you are in denial. I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship and I get paid $1668 per month, and this is considerably above average for one of the top 5 engineering colleges in the country. I know quite a few people making half this much working a full 40 hours per week. The fact that you can't adaquately use your RA is no fault of the system.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[kallend 2,151]

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Graduate education is NOT an entitlement program.

There are 3000 colleges and universities in the USA, I'm sure some of them even accept ungrateful folks who complain about getting an expensive education for free.

My one assistant right now works way less than 12 hours per week for me, in exchange for which he gets free tuition through his PhD degree, + room and board and book allowance. He is very happy with the arrangement.

Let's be clear about something, these are people who voluntarily enroll in a university and DON'T have to pay for the education they receive.

Let's be clear about something else, the above is far from the norm and you very well know this; that or you are in denial. I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship and I get paid $1668 per month, and this is considerably above average for one of the top 5 engineering colleges in the country. I know quite a few people making half this much working a full 40 hours per week. The fact that you can't adaquately use your RA is no fault of the system.

Is your tuition getting paid? By whom?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[larsrulz 0]

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Let's be clear about something else, the above is far from the norm and you very well know this; that or you are in denial. I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship and I get paid $1668 per month, and this is considerably above average for one of the top 5 engineering colleges in the country. I know quite a few people making half this much working a full 40 hours per week. The fact that you can't adaquately use your RA is no fault of the system.

Is your tuition getting paid? By whom?

I am getting training as part of my job. In order for me to do the work that I am hired to do, I need to be trained to do it. Much like a McDonalds employee is paid while learning to use the cash register, I get paid while learning how to manufacture high performance composites. Do you consider learning to use a cash register a perk of working at McDonalds? I personally consider it part of the job; just like the training I am required to do. If I were to decide to not take classes, then my job would not be available. I am required to take a certain number of courses.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[rehmwa 2]

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YOU ALWAYS HAD THE OPTION OF ACTUALLY PAYING FOR THE EDUCATION YOU RECEIVED.

angry, being attacked for really doing absolutely nothing wrong.

I wonder if this is how your neighbor feels when people try to make him feel guilty about having nice things. Or, just talk about it in forums where he can't defend himself.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,120]

>And you, the serf master on the other claiming how great things are for them.

No problem discussing the relative merits of grad student programs, but please do not use the discussion to attack other posters here.

[kallend 2,151]

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Let's be clear about something else, the above is far from the norm and you very well know this; that or you are in denial. I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship and I get paid $1668 per month, and this is considerably above average for one of the top 5 engineering colleges in the country. I know quite a few people making half this much working a full 40 hours per week. The fact that you can't adaquately use your RA is no fault of the system.

Is your tuition getting paid? By whom?

I am getting training as part of my job. In order for me to do the work that I am hired to do, I need to be trained to do it. Much like a McDonalds employee is paid while learning to use the cash register, I get paid while learning how to manufacture high performance composites. Do you consider learning to use a cash register a perk of working at McDonalds? I personally consider it part of the job; just like the training I am required to do. If I were to decide to not take classes, then my job would not be available. I am required to take a certain number of courses.

Funny, I thought you said you were in school full-time. Now you say you have a job and you're being trained as part of it.

Are you a full-time student? This "work" you are doing, is it by any chance for your own PhD thesis?

If you are at UIUC your education is already being subsidized by Illinois taxpayers.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,151]

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YOU ALWAYS HAD THE OPTION OF ACTUALLY PAYING FOR THE EDUCATION YOU RECEIVED.

angry, being attacked for really doing absolutely nothing wrong.

I wonder if this is how your neighbor feels when people try to make him feel guilty about having nice things. Or, just talk about it in forums where he can't defend himself.

Do you really see no difference between someone working to avoid going on welfare and wanting a reasonable living wage, and someone who already has one degree, possibly a masters too, receiving an optional PhD education, having their tuition paid for them and a small stipend in addition? Really?

A PhD is optional. It costs money to run PhD programs. Ph.D. students are students first, receiving an education from the university. Tuition is payable, like for any other degree. No university is obliged to give away its product (education) and its money too, any more than I expect my neighbor to give away his product and hand me cash every time I take clothes in to be dry-cleaned. I do expect him to pay his workers a living wage, though.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[larsrulz 0]

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Is your tuition getting paid? By whom?

I am getting training as part of my job. In order for me to do the work that I am hired to do, I need to be trained to do it. Much like a McDonalds employee is paid while learning to use the cash register, I get paid while learning how to manufacture high performance composites. Do you consider learning to use a cash register a perk of working at McDonalds? I personally consider it part of the job; just like the training I am required to do. If I were to decide to not take classes, then my job would not be available. I am required to take a certain number of courses.

Funny, I thought you said you were in school full-time. Now you say you have a job and you're being trained as part of it.

Are you a full-time student?

As I said: "I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship". Going to school full time implies taking at least 3 graduate courses. These are courses which my advisor (he would be the one who hired me to work for him) has agreed contain information which he needs me to understand. I can't run off and take a photography course, a course on arabic, or a buddhist meditation course; nor can I even take an engineering course which is not applicable to my research. Whereas working isn't a requirement of the education, taking courses is certainly a requirement of the job. That is the important distinction here; I can't have the job unless I take the courses.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[kallend 2,151]

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Is your tuition getting paid? By whom?

I am getting training as part of my job. In order for me to do the work that I am hired to do, I need to be trained to do it. Much like a McDonalds employee is paid while learning to use the cash register, I get paid while learning how to manufacture high performance composites. Do you consider learning to use a cash register a perk of working at McDonalds? I personally consider it part of the job; just like the training I am required to do. If I were to decide to not take classes, then my job would not be available. I am required to take a certain number of courses.

Funny, I thought you said you were in school full-time. Now you say you have a job and you're being trained as part of it.

Are you a full-time student?

As I said: "I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship". Going to school full time implies taking at least 3 graduate courses. These are courses which my advisor (he would be the one who hired me to work for him) has agreed contain information which he needs me to understand. I can't run off and take a photography course, a course on arabic, or a buddhist meditation course; nor can I even take an engineering course which is not applicable to my research. Whereas working isn't a requirement of the education, taking courses is certainly a requirement of the job. That is the important distinction here; I can't have the job unless I take the courses.

The question is very simple but you keep avoiding it. Are you a fulltime student "working" for your own benefit (for your PhD thesis research), and having your tuition kindly paid for you by the generosity of the university and the taxpayers of Illinois? If so, you come over as very ungrateful indeed for the opportunity afforded you by the university and the people of Illinois to get a PhD at their expense.

Or are you a full-time employee taking a few classes on the side, in a poorly paying job (but still considerably above minimum wage for 30 hours/week) despite your apparent qualifications, in which case why don't you change jobs?

PS you always have the option of giving up your RAship and paying your own tuition and paying for your own research project. I've known several students that did that.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[larsrulz 0]

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The question is very simple but you keep avoiding it. Are you a fulltime student "working" for your own benefit (for your PhD thesis research), and having your tuition kindly paid for you by the generosity of the university and the taxpayers of Illinois? If so, you come over as very ungrateful indeed for the opportunity afforded you by the university and the people of Illinois to get a PhD at their expense.

Or are you a full-time employee taking a few classes on the side, in a poorly paying job (but still considerably above minimum wage for 30 hours/week) despite your apparent qualifications, in which case why don't you change jobs?

PS you always have the option of giving up your RAship and paying your own tuition and paying for your own research project. I've known several students that did that.

"I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship" answers your question. I work 30 hours per week --> 75% job (not full time), going to school full time --> I am a full time student, for my RAship --> The university I attend has hired me as a research assistant. If you are asking me to check one of the two boxes you provided, then I will check both, because they are exactly the same. They vary depending on the spin you put on the situation. I am actually quite grateful for the condition I am in. I don't agree with Kelpdiver; I just disagree with your take on the situation, in particular the example you gave of your RA.

When dealing with a PhD student who is paid as an RA/TA, then the job comes before the school. One can't skip a discussion section or miss a conference because one needs to study for a test. Do that and you will lose both job and school.

You mention giving up ones TA/RAship and paying ones own tuition and research, but that isn't what we are talking about here. We are talking about someone who has such a position and the very high compensation you seem to believe they have.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[kelpdiver 2]

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>And you, the serf master on the other claiming how great things are for them.

No problem discussing the relative merits of grad student programs, but please do not use the discussion to attack other posters here.

I'll use a more neutral term going forward.

but the point being made is that I don't see a huge difference between a business owner with low wage employees and a professor with a groups of RA/grad students. Both are exploited, though the latter may eventually get to be the one on top of the equation.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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PS you always have the option of giving up your RAship and paying your own tuition and paying for your own research project. I've known several students that did that.

As do those who flip burgers for minimum wage also have the option of seeking a higher paying job, going to school or whatever other professional pursuits available to them in a free country. I don't see the difference. There's always a choice.

[kallend 2,151]

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>And you, the serf master on the other claiming how great things are for them.

No problem discussing the relative merits of grad student programs, but please do not use the discussion to attack other posters here.

I'll use a more neutral term going forward.

but the point being made is that I don't see a huge difference between a business owner with low wage employees and a professor with a groups of RA/grad students. Both are exploited, though the latter may eventually get to be the one on top of the equation.

How do you consider giving someone a free education, free access to the facilities they need to do their thesis work, and some money to go along with it "exploitation"? It's not like these RAs are down the mine digging coal for the university's heating plant, or fixing the plumbing. The "work" they are doing is for their own PhD thesis.

Over the years I have had a number of independent students who found the resources to do their thesis research without using the university's facilities.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Lindsey 0]

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Graduate education is NOT an entitlement program.

There are 3000 colleges and universities in the USA, I'm sure some of them even accept ungrateful folks who complain about getting an expensive education for free.

My one assistant right now works way less than 12 hours per week for me, in exchange for which he gets free tuition through his PhD degree, + room and board and book allowance. He is very happy with the arrangement.

Let's be clear about something, these are people who voluntarily enroll in a university and DON'T have to pay for the education they receive.

Let's be clear about something else, the above is far from the norm and you very well know this; that or you are in denial. I personally work 30 hours per week while going to school full time for my RAship and I get paid $1668 per month, and this is considerably above average for one of the top 5 engineering colleges in the country. I know quite a few people making half this much working a full 40 hours per week. The fact that you can't adaquately use your RA is no fault of the system.

[whine]I've worked sometime 100 hours/week as a medical student, and this experience costs me about $30,000/year.

I wish someone were paying me. Of course next year is intern year, and I'll actually get paid about $38,000 for the who-knows-how-many hours I'll work then. If you're getting an education, you're doing great if you're making any money at all, imho....[/whine]

linz

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[kallend 2,151]

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PS you always have the option of giving up your RAship and paying your own tuition and paying for your own research project. I've known several students that did that.

As do those who flip burgers for minimum wage also have the option of seeking a higher paying job, going to school or whatever other professional pursuits available to them in a free country. I don't see the difference. There's always a choice.

Of course there's a difference, it's all about opportunity and what the expectation is. People in minimum wage jobs generally don't already have a degree so their options are limited, and they aren't receiving a tuition waiver to go to university for free to "work" on their own projects for their PhD theses in addition to any monetary remuneration they receive. Grad. students are working on stuff for their own benefit, not their boss's benefit.

It truly amazes me that anyone but a socialist would believe graduate education should be provided for free by the taxpayers.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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PS you always have the option of giving up your RAship and paying your own tuition and paying for your own research project. I've known several students that did that.

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As do those who flip burgers for minimum wage also have the option of seeking a higher paying job, going to school or whatever other professional pursuits available to them in a free country. I don't see the difference. There's always a choice.

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Of course there's a difference, it's all about opportunity and what the expectation is. People in minimum wage jobs generally don't already have a degree so their options are limited, and they aren't receiving a tuition waiver to go to university for free to "work" on their own projects for their PhD theses in addition to any monetary remuneration they receive. Grad. students are working on stuff for their own benefit, not their boss's benefit.

Generally people working at a new job making minimum wage are in some type of training program, whether it be to learn to operate a cash register, deal with customers etc. These skill are for their own benefit because the more they learn, the greater their value to the employer and the further they advance with the company. There a volumes of people who started as burger flippers who went on to become store managers, regional managers and even advanced to owning their own franchise. So who benefited from them working for minimum wage? Initially, the boss much in the same way the University benefits from RA's but long term, it was the persons own initiative and determination that led to their success and had it not been for the fact that the employer had the advantage of hiring them on a trial basis at minimum wage, they may never have had the opportunity.

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It truly amazes me that anyone but a socialist would believe graduate education should be provided for free by the taxpayers.

I'm no socialist. I don't believe in free money for educational purposes. I do however support student loans as long as they are repaid.

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[larsrulz 0]

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Grad. students are working on stuff for their own benefit, not their boss's benefit.

It truly amazes me that anyone but a socialist would believe graduate education should be provided for free by the taxpayers.

At a true research university (minimum $100 million in research expenditure per year) there is absolutely no way a professor can obtain tenure without quite a number of graduate students doing research for him or her, just how those crazy liberal education types think.

It amazes me that you can't comprehend that education is necessary for these assistantships. If you think that people should be required to pay five figures per year to have the possibility of getting these jobs, then that simply dumbfounds me.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[kelpdiver 2]

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I've worked sometime 100 hours/week as a medical student, and this experience costs me about $30,000/year.

yeah, you docs probably have it the worst of all. With the years of little to no income, the student loans, and the high hours once you've made it, you can't be doing it for the money.

[rehmwa 2]

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[Do you really see no difference between someone working to avoid going on welfare and wanting a reasonable living wage, ..................................

I think you're responding to someone else. I was pointing out that you are defending yourself or your system and you didn't do anything wrong in the first place. I thought your neighbor would understand since he's being judged just based on his career choice and that he has some nice things.

Frankly, the TA position is a good thing if not abused so I have no issue other than this thread is amusing.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,151]

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Grad. students are working on stuff for their own benefit, not their boss's benefit.

It truly amazes me that anyone but a socialist would believe graduate education should be provided for free by the taxpayers.

At a true research university (minimum $100 million in research expenditure per year) there is absolutely no way a professor can obtain tenure without quite a number of graduate students doing research for him or her, just how those crazy liberal education types think.

It amazes me that you can't comprehend that education is necessary for these assistantships. If you think that people should be required to pay five figures per year to have the possibility of getting these jobs, then that simply dumbfounds me.

It is apparent that you have no clue about he economics of research universities. Research does not make money for any university. PhD programs are money losers. They exist because that's part of the university mission, not because they are profit centers. Sometimes a patent is obtained, or something is commercialized, but overall universities lose money on PhD research. External grants and contracts obtained by the faculty do not cover the true costs of the research.

Your PhD studies are actually being subsidized by the taxpayers of Illinois and the tuition paying undergraduates at UIUC. You are getting a free education, plus enough money to provide food and housing, while you pursue your degree. Whining about your lot in life, which is actually pretty good and a damn site better than poorly educated folks in minimum wage jobs, does not become you.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.