minimum wage increase killed by republicans

[livendive 8]

Quote

You know, I RESENT your implication that I should suck it up and operate my business at a fucking loss. My overhead rises, I close up my shop and go to work for someone else. Either that or I fire three of my employees, get out of half of my lease, and lower my overhead to $5k per month.

You have one minimum wage employee and a current overhead of 23k per month. Raising that one guy's wage by 2 bucks an hour (~$352/month) is going to force you to fire three employees?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

You have one minimum wage employee and a current overhead of 23k per month. Raising that one guy's wage by 2 bucks an hour (~$352/month) is going to force you to fire three employees?

Nope. I'll put it this way - our office manager was getting a little upset that our law clerk was making more than her. Then we showed her payroll, where she learned that, other than John, my wife and I (the business owners) are getting paid less than everyone.

My resentment was not of the minimum wage (6.75/hr here). My resentment was his insinuation that business owners can suck up a loss. In other words, "Hey, bourgeois business owners, bend over and TAKE IT!" I resent being told that I can increase the price for everyone else to make up for it. As I said earlier, if I could get away with charging more, don't you think I'd be doing it already?

My overhead is INSANE. An additional 352 per month? How many jump tickets is that? That's a car payment for me? That's my health insurance. That's care for my baby. That's ONE of my student loan payments.

You know, I'd like to be able to buy a house sometime soon. Amazingly, my wife and I are the only ones at the office who don't have one. Fancy that. I'll put my net worth against yours or theirs any day. See where I stand. 352 a month may not be a lot to you, but to me, business owner, that's a lot of fucking money.

Not much? Hell, YOU pay him. You'll be getting just as much additional service and use out of him as I will. That is, he'll do as much for you now as he will with that additional 352 per month. Same thing here.

As an aside, I watch American Chopper, and usd to view Paul, Sr. as a roid raging nut. In the past several months, I've come to identify with Paul, Sr. Paul, Jr.'s insubordination is now inexcusable, whereas I used to say, "Right on." Now, I can't believe that Sr. puts up with that shit.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[cbennettjr 0]

I have no problem with the Federal minimum wage, IF we get a corresponding tax credit. I understand that the Fed needs this money to operate, so where should we get these extra duckets? Well! Let us CUT the wages of the House and Senate (including all their retirement benefits). That would more than make up for the shortfall.

Oh wait! The House and Senate are the ones voting on this huh? Oh hell...never mind.

chuck
Canis meus id comedit.

[livendive 8]

I get what you're saying, I just think you're being a bit overdramatic. If you're already paying one of your employees 6.75/hr, than the Dem bill would have only forced you to raise his wages by $0.50/hr, or about $80/month (it's still something, but not as bad as $350/month). I just don't get why you're getting all shrill and claiming you'd have to lay off three employees to cover that cost.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

I get what you're saying, I just think you're being a bit overdramatic. If you're already paying one of your employees 6.75/hr, than the Dem bill would have only forced you to raise his wages by $0.50/hr, or about $80/month (it's still something, but not as bad as $350/month). I just don't get why you're getting all shrill and claiming you'd have to lay off three employees to cover that cost.

I'm not sure if it matters, but the dollar cost of wages are only one portion of them, and some other parts (like SS) slide in proportion to the dollar wages.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lawrocket 3]

I'm not claiming I'd lay off three employees to cover it. In reviewing the post, yeah, it looks that way.

Would I fire John? Yeah, I would. Or I'd lower his hours. I am simply fed up with the idea that employers are gravy trains, and that they should simply suck it up. Those of us who run businesses know what it's all about.

Then again, this change doesn't affect me much, Maybe, in light of this, I'm paying my other employees far too much. I'll speak to them about taking a pay cut. Maybe only 200 or 300 per month. It's not like they need it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wmw999 2,589]

Sometimes it's easy to see how someone else could do something. Even if it's not quite that easy...

I'm sure business owners would learn how to suck it up, and business would change, and people don't like change like that (really). But he's in the middle of that issue.

Doing one "easy" thing perturbs a whole system sometimes, and someone who's familiar with the system sees the perturbations ahead of time, and knows how hard it might be to adjust to them, while keeping the status quo (which he knows how to manage) going.

Anything else is that famous paradigm shift. JMHO.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

Quote

Oh, he should, but for a millionaire to grumble about the minimum wage going up is hypocritical, IMO.

What do you think about a businessman who grumbles about the cost of doing business? Do you really know his motivation? Maybe he's like Lawrocket and doesn't want to lay off one or two people that he works with every day and has lunch with and maybe his kids and their kids play together. Business is never as impersonal as "you guys" try to make out.

(I've had much closer relationships with bosses and co-workers than any of my college professors. Perhaps as a function of your job you have a detachment from those you are responsible for that you are projecting on the small businessman).

I just don't see this automatic stereotype that comes out concerning businessmen.

{{Maybe you're right and this guy is an asshat - also possible}}

My point is simply that I have little sympathy for small businessmen who buy new top of the line cars every year and have two homes and three boats when they whine about the cost of the minimum wage hired help and how raising the minimum wage will force them to lay people off. That is all.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

My point is simply that I have little sympathy for small businessmen who buy new top of the line cars every year and have two homes and three boats when they whine about the cost of the minimum wage hired help and how raising the minimum wage will force them to lay people off.

A constituent has asked my office to forward her response to John's post, as follows:

Funny, I hold a similar position on academy members who bilk the business class for what amount to political pursuits and then demonize said producing class, biting the very hand/economic system that feeds both them and their RA's/slaves (NB, RA's are scholars who not infrequently are compensated at less than minimum wage levels by their masters and cannot unionize as a practical matter).

Why should I pay someone to indoctrinate my children and grandchildren in self-loathing when cars, homes and boats can contribute real human value I actually experience with my family and loved ones, these assets lay within my means of control, and inanimate objects don't routinely attack me for providing the very means that make their existence possible?

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Good for them! Count on conservatives to keep the economy going in the right direction.

Net job loss is one of those ways? Not doing much to pursue alternative fuel sources?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

My point is simply that I have little sympathy for small businessmen who buy new top of the line cars every year and have two homes and three boats when they whine about the cost of the minimum wage hired help and how raising the minimum wage will force them to lay people off.

A constituent has asked my office to forward her response to John's post, as follows:

Funny, I hold a similar position on academy members who bilk the business class for what amount to political pursuits and then demonize said producing class, biting the very hand/economic system that feeds both them and their RA's/slaves (NB, RA's are scholars who not infrequently are compensated at less than minimum wage levels by their masters and cannot unionize as a practical matter).

Why should I pay someone to indoctrinate my children and grandchildren in self-loathing when cars, homes and boats can contribute real human value I actually experience with my family and loved ones, these assets lay within my means of control, and inanimate objects don't routinely attack me for providing the very means that make their existence possible?

How much do RAs make?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Interesting how all the non-business owners like to lecture all of us who do own businesses on how to operate our companies.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

How much do RAs make?

It's all over the map. Postdocs I lived with in the late 90s were in the 20-30k range, and that was after earning a Ph.d in biochem/genetics. The grad students were making much less.

They tried to unionize and striked a couple times at Cal, but the university maintained that being an underpaid serf was part of the educational experience.

[complexity 0]

Quote

I have no problem with the Federal minimum wage, IF we get a corresponding tax credit. I understand that the Fed needs this money to operate, so where should we get these extra duckets? Well! Let us CUT the wages of the House and Senate (including all their retirement benefits). That would more than make up for the shortfall.

Oh wait! The House and Senate are the ones voting on this huh? Oh hell...never mind.

chuck
Canis meus id comedit.

you are talkimg about something you know nothing about... the income that the House and senate Members of Congress get is not that much -- especially considering that most of them made TONS more in the private sector. Its tied to COLAs and they have to vote to NOT give themselves an increase. And if you think about it -- $140,000 or whatever is their annual income is really not that much considering they have to keep two homes (one in district and one in DC) and the cost of living in DC is fairly high.

I am not defending Members of Congress but I know for a fact that none of the Members there are there because of the income. Its a joke for most of them. In fact, some of them actually give the salary BACK to the Federal government.

And in my view, tax credits are bad tax policy -- all around.

[complexity 0]

Quote

Quote

I get what you're saying, I just think you're being a bit overdramatic. If you're already paying one of your employees 6.75/hr, than the Dem bill would have only forced you to raise his wages by $0.50/hr, or about $80/month (it's still something, but not as bad as $350/month). I just don't get why you're getting all shrill and claiming you'd have to lay off three employees to cover that cost.

I'm not sure if it matters, but the dollar cost of wages are only one portion of them, and some other parts (like SS) slide in proportion to the dollar wages.

that is true -- dollar cost is only one part of the cotsts for employers. They also have to pay a 6.5% tax for social security, 1.5 % tax for Medicare, in addition to local taxes. Also don't forget the cost of health care (a very big cost -- for families $10,000 a year), and also other fringe benefits. All these costs make it very difficult to continue to expand the job market base.

Classic economics say that the economy will bear what the market requires -- classic economics will bear the pareto effiiency -- so the minimum wage is what is necessary,. If a job is in demand, then the employer will pay whatever is necessary. Most economists say that minimum wage is artificial and detrimental and we should instead rely on market forces.

[sfzombie13 324]

i just have one more thing to say about this: if you are making less than everyone else in the office and it's your business, you need to find a new calling my friend, cuz you ain't doing something right.
of course you don't want the minimum wage to go up. you believe all the hype, just like everyone else does. it don't have hardly any effect at all on the economy, check the past records, people, it never has, nor ever will cause anything to happen to the economy. that happens all by itself.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Jimbo 0]

I've noticed that since you've started posting here that everyone else is wrong and that you're always right. It's going to be fun having you around.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[sfzombie13 324]

man, it didn't take long to figure me out....but not really. i have very strong opinions on some things, and i don't change my convictions. i don't think it would hurt anything giving some people a break. sometimes i have been known to debate, though.....

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

Quote

My point is simply that I have little sympathy for small businessmen who buy new top of the line cars every year and have two homes and three boats when they whine about the cost of the minimum wage hired help and how raising the minimum wage will force them to lay people off.

A constituent has asked my office to forward her response to John's post, as follows:

Funny, I hold a similar position on academy members who bilk the business class for what amount to political pursuits and then demonize said producing class, biting the very hand/economic system that feeds both them and their RA's/slaves (NB, RA's are scholars who not infrequently are compensated at less than minimum wage levels by their masters and cannot unionize as a practical matter).

Why should I pay someone to indoctrinate my children and grandchildren in self-loathing when cars, homes and boats can contribute real human value I actually experience with my family and loved ones, these assets lay within my means of control, and inanimate objects don't routinely attack me for providing the very means that make their existence possible?

Well, Blutarsky, since your premises are false; RA's are not employees, they are students who's tuition is being paid for them by the university (but which you have ignored) in addition to their stipend, and they often do unionize, the rest of your comments are irrelevant.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

Quote

How much do RAs make?

It's all over the map. Postdocs I lived with in the late 90s were in the 20-30k range, and that was after earning a Ph.d in biochem/genetics. The grad students were making much less.

They tried to unionize and striked a couple times at Cal, but the university maintained that being an underpaid serf was part of the educational experience.

RA's are students. The training they receive is considered part of their compensation. Rather like medical doctors doing their internships.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

How much do RAs make?

It's all over the map. Postdocs I lived with in the late 90s were in the 20-30k range, and that was after earning a Ph.d in biochem/genetics. The grad students were making much less.

They tried to unionize and striked a couple times at Cal, but the university maintained that being an underpaid serf was part of the educational experience.

RA's are students. The training they receive is considered part of their compensation. Rather like medical doctors doing their internships.

Oh, you mean sorta like new hires at a business, who start out at minimum wage, acquire training and then recieve raises as they progress?

[jimbarry 0]

Quote

My point is simply that I have little sympathy for small businessmen who buy new top of the line cars every year and have two homes and three boats when they whine about the cost of the minimum wage hired help and how raising the minimum wage will force them to lay people off. That is all.

Any sympathy for small businessmen who take risks and operate at a loss for years before turning a real profit? There are plenty of those too.

How 'bout any sympathy for union local secretary-treasurers and regional presidents who scarf down heavy six-figure salaries at the expense of the middle- and lower-class rank and file? All while they feed their card holders class-warfare hyperbole to keep their own wallets fat.

Look, anyone can come up with extreme cases and present them as evidence of the entire class of people, and make a point that way.

Bottom line here is that everyone has opportunity to make their own way. Education, experience, determination. Be an employee at lower risk for success or loss, or be a business owner with a higher risk for success or loss. With the former, an employee's labor is worth exactly what someone will pay for it; nothing more, nothing less. Anything else is artificial control which mucks with our whole economic system.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

if you are making less than everyone else in the office and it's your business, you need to find a new calling my friend, cuz you ain't doing something right.

I know. The fact that we pumped 100k in to the business via small business loan is an issue. Sure, our office turned a profit in it's second month, and I'm sure that my wife and I would be making more money if only we weren't working our asses off to pay out all of our debt.

Tell me how many businesses you know of that make a profit in their second month? Once this debt issue is taken care of (which is 4k of my overhead) then I'll be able ot keep some more of it.

However, that borrowed money ain't mine, and I pay it back. One common thing about new business owners is usually debt.

Quote

of course you don't want the minimum wage to go up. you believe all the hype

Did you read my post here? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1519509#1519509 I understand that there are plent of people, especially on school boards, who think mathematics is all hype, and is useless compared to tolerance.
Teacher - "What's 2+2, Billy?"
Billy - "5!"
T - "Oh! Good Learn! Hugs for you!"
B - "Thank God, I thought I got it wrong."
T - "You go to the principal's office right now! You mentioned God!"
B - "I didn't mean the judeo-christian God. I meant Gaia - she was at my mommy's coven."
T - "I was there, too. Hugs for Billy!"

I, on the other hand, cut through hype and do the math. Tell me, is my math wrong in that post? I know, I'm an attorney and can only calculate 1/3 in my head.

See past the hype, dude. Look at the math and tell me it doesn't have an effect. I'm asking you now to disprove my assertion and my math. Billvon always uses logic (although he's become more sarcastic in the past couple of weeks).

Quote

that happens all by itself.

Hmmm. That's called the "hidden hand" that Adam Smith wrote about. Read the Wealth of Nations, and you'll find better evidence of my assertion.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

How much do RAs make?

It's all over the map. Postdocs I lived with in the late 90s were in the 20-30k range, and that was after earning a Ph.d in biochem/genetics. The grad students were making much less.

They tried to unionize and striked a couple times at Cal, but the university maintained that being an underpaid serf was part of the educational experience.

RA's are students. The training they receive is considered part of their compensation. Rather like medical doctors doing their internships.

Oh, you mean sorta like new hires at a business, who start out at minimum wage, acquire training and then recieve raises as they progress?

No, more like apprentices in a formal apprenticeship system.

I don't see any comparison in training received between a medical intern and someone flipping burgers or cleaning floors.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

No, more like apprentices in a formal apprenticeship system.

no, more like slaves or cult members

I have no sympathy for a man earning 6 figures that purchases expensive remote controlled airplanes instead of giving that money to minimum wage workers to supplement their income or paying from their own pocket to assist starving grad students living in substandard housing.

Oh, wait - how someone else chooses to spend their hard earned income is none of my business. If it was, none of us would be allowed to skydive.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants