Amanduh 0 #26 March 8, 2005 Quoteit also seems that noone cares about the poor people in this country. and as for the cost of living skyrocketing, puh-lease!!! that's a buzz-line that's used when you're afraid to face reality. The cost of living will not go up? If you have every burger-flipper in the US starting out making over $7 an hour, how do you think that will not up the cost of living? How else will the owners be able to profit? Start out pay goes up 2 bucks an hour PER employee..do you think you're going to be able to get that 39 cent hamburger? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #27 March 8, 2005 Now, you are talking about a different issue. Paying bounuses or incentives for good work / xtra work is a good thing and I do the same. But the issue that started this thread is "someone" mandating what someone is paid. There is a HUGE difference. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #28 March 8, 2005 Quoteif you increase 1 wage $2 an hour, that's a little over $4000 a year. with the extra taxes, it's a little over $6000. Okay. Assume I have 3 minimum wage employees. So I increase three wages two dollars an hour. That's $12k per year. Added taxes. That's $18k. Assume the federal minimum wage is $7.10 per hour. Multiply that by 40 and you get $284.00 per week. Multiply by 52 you get $14,768.00 per year in wages for that employee. Federal minimum wage is $5.15. That comes out to $10,712 per year. Assume I have three minimum wage employees. That increases my additional labor wages (without additional taxes and WC), as you agreed, by $12,000. Now, we see that the increase in minimum wage for the three employees is actually like hiring on 1.12 new employees. (12000/10712). I can't afford to hire on another employee. So, I fire one of them to keep my overhead roughly the same. Ah, but I can increase my prices, right? No, not if I'm an astute businessman. As a businessman I have already figured out what I can charge to maximize my profit by selling 90 widgets per day at $1.55 per wigdet. Sure, if I can raise my price to $2.00, but at that price I can only sell 60. I can sell 70 at $1.75. So, what do I do? I decide to sell 80 per day at 1.65. This makes me less money than I made before. Plus, I need to pay an additional 18k per year for my three employees. Two employees can handle 80 widgets per day. So, I fire a third employee, which saves me roughly $18,000 per year with payroll and taxes. Gee. I'll bet he's glad that his two former co-workers got raises. Now he's gotta find a new job in a market with many employers just like me. Isn't the minimum wage just grand for the working man and woman? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #29 March 8, 2005 Quotei didnt say go public Ron. But hey, I own 100% here soo I was kidding.... But see the Dems got what they wanted here. The Min wage did not pass, but they get to blame the Republicans for it....Even though the Dems could have passed a min wage increase with almost 90 % of the vote. But they really cared more about making the Republicans look bad than they did about raising the min. wage. The Republicans say, "Lets rasie the min wage "X"." The Dems say lets raise it "X + 8". and when the repubs vote it down we will look lik ehero's and they will look like they are out to keep the little guy down." If they had REALLY cared about the little guy they would have voted the Republican raise into effect."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites white_falcon 0 #30 March 8, 2005 I got it. scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #31 March 8, 2005 That was a perfect explanation...Better than I could have even attempted.."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,113 #32 March 8, 2005 QuoteAnd why, should he not reap the rewards of HIS hard work??? You (generic "you" there) feel sorry for the minimum wage earners then start a business and pay them all of the profit of the business. scott Oh, he should, but for a millionaire to grumble about the minimum wage going up is hypocritical, IMO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #33 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd why, should he not reap the rewards of HIS hard work??? You (generic "you" there) feel sorry for the minimum wage earners then start a business and pay them all of the profit of the business. scott Oh, he should, but for a millionaire to grumble about the minimum wage going up is hypocritical, IMO. And perhaps that concern for detail and watching the bottom line is the reason one gets to be a millionaire. Ever hear the saying "take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves"? Most very wealthy people I know think that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,555 #34 March 8, 2005 QuoteAnd why, should he not reap the rewards of HIS hard work??? That's probably why it's called "trickle" and not "flow" down. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #35 March 8, 2005 QuoteOh, he should, but for a millionaire to grumble about the minimum wage going up is hypocritical, IMO. What do you think about a businessman who grumbles about the cost of doing business? Do you really know his motivation? Maybe he's like Lawrocket and doesn't want to lay off one or two people that he works with every day and has lunch with and maybe his kids and their kids play together. Business is never as impersonal as "you guys" try to make out. (I've had much closer relationships with bosses and co-workers than any of my college professors. Perhaps as a function of your job you have a detachment from those you are responsible for that you are projecting on the small businessman). I just don't see this automatic stereotype that comes out concerning businessmen. {{Maybe you're right and this guy is an asshat - also possible}} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #36 March 8, 2005 Just as an observation,I believe that Wal-Mart does more economic harm to this country than an $5.15 an hour minimum wage......Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,084 #37 March 8, 2005 I agree with most of your post, but not this part: >As a businessman I have already figured out what I can charge to >maximize my profit by selling 90 widgets per day at $1.55 per wigdet. > Sure, if I can raise my price to $2.00, but at that price I can only sell 60. >I can sell 70 at $1.75. So, what do I do? I decide to sell 80 per day at 1.65. That's ignoring the other effects that a nationwide increase in the minimum wage would have. If your widget is best built by unskilled labor, then EVERYONE who builds that widget is going to have to either sell it for more money or make fewer of them. If they make fewer of them, demand will remain the same but supply will drop, and their prices will rise anyway due to normal market forces. A statewide minimum wage _is_ a problem if done at a statewide level, because then other states become artificially more (or less) competitive. But a nationwide minimum wage doesn't make one company any more or less competitive if implemented fairly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,433 #38 March 8, 2005 Quote...if you need to raise your prices a little to make up for the cut into your profits, we can absorb this. And so wouldn't that increase the price of necessities (and the taxes for those items) for those who just got the wage increase?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #39 March 8, 2005 Quote A statewide minimum wage _is_ a problem if done at a statewide level, because then other states become artificially more (or less) competitive. But a nationwide minimum wage doesn't make one company any more or less competitive if implemented fairly. A nationwide minimum wage _is_ a problem if done at a nationwide level, because then other nations, and so on and so forth ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #40 March 8, 2005 I agree with your post to the extend that it analyzes this on a macro-economic as opposed to a micro-economic method. However, you've fallen into my trap. The rest of the country will lay off people, but demand will remain the same. The price, however, will not increase because, in our macro-economic economy, China, Korea, Mexico, etc., will all start introducing their widgets. The price increase of the widgets, as well as the increased demand, now makes it economical for foreign companies to export these widgets. Barring tariffs on these products, American companies will be undercut, thus lowering the prices and leading to further layoffs. Bill - I know from the past that you do not support price caps. Instead, that gas stations and companies should be able to charge what they want. However, why do you support price floors? Does not a price floor have a similar impact as a price cap? Artificially increasing the value of something affects marginal utility the same way as artificially capping the value of something, does it not? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #41 March 8, 2005 QuoteHowever, why do you support price floors? Does not a price floor have a similar impact as a price cap? Artificially increasing the value of something affects marginal utility the same way as artificially capping the value of something, does it not? Did this just move into the proposals to heavily tax gas? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,084 #42 March 8, 2005 >However, why do you support price floors? Does not a price floor have a > similar impact as a price cap? Artificially increasing the value of >something affects marginal utility the same way as artificially capping >the value of something, does it not? I don't support the proposed minimum wage increase. I was just pointing out that it does not make a product less competitive in a given market if the entire market is subjected to the same wage pressure. I have purposely ignored China et al in the wage discussion because there are many other factors that make people buy or not buy Chinese products; imports and exports are a whole 'nother ball of wax. (Clearly, if wages were the only issue, no one would ever buy any american products, which isn't the case.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #43 March 8, 2005 I understand, bill. Sorry for my implication in that. Edited to add: "Implication?" Heck, I made an outright statement that you support it. My bad. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #44 March 8, 2005 QuoteAnd so wouldn't that increase the price of necessities (and the taxes for those items) for those who just got the wage increase? Well the thing is this. The min wage goes up 1.00. The cost of doing business goes up, so prices for goods and services also go up. (Nice thinking that the fat cats will just take a pay reduction...But most companies are working at a basic profit margin Owners want to make money...And Public companies owe it to stock holders to keep turning a profit)...So the prices WILL go up. Maybe not a 1:1 ratio, maybe .5:1 so a good that did cost 1.00 now costs 1.50... OK the min wage folks do get a little better deal. But lets not forget that most min wage folks are not supporting families. The real problem is that min wage goes up a buck to lets say 6.25/hr. The guy that was making 6.50 is NOT going to get a raise, so in essence he just took a pay cut since inflation will raise the cost of goods and services. It sounds good to say you are making more money, but inflation will eat a portion of it and those that don't get that raise get screwed. Just like in "The Hitch Hickers Guide to the Galaxy" if money did grow on trees, everyone would be rich and no one could afford anything."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #45 March 8, 2005 Quotei work in the construction industry. i pay employees what they are worth to me. if i have 2 guys working for me, 1 sits around, the other busts his hump, the guy who sits around goes home at the end of the day with a paycheck and no job. if i hire a new guy that knows more and is a better worker, he gets more money. and my payscale starts a good bit higher than min wage. when i sign my union contract, it will be almost 5x the min wage. then my prices go up, so do my bids. if i don't get a job because of it, i will move on to the next one and get it. not only am i the company owner, but a paid employee. it's a really neat system, i would recommend that everyone would vote to unionize, that solves the min wage issue. The neat part about unions is that most are based on seniority, so once you have it, busting your hump becomes optional. The union for the cable car operators in San Francisco had a mini walkoff last week - ostensibly to protest the firing of two guys that were stealing from the till. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #46 March 8, 2005 Just remember a large portion of the funds that the Legalsative branch is paid ends up being droped back into the DC economy. Each elected official needs to maintain their residency in their home district plus they must also estabilish a presence in DC. Usually thats done by renting an apartment near the capital. Cost of modest rent in that area is expensive. Hell the entire area around DC is either expensive or its expensive slums. I know a lot of legaslatitres actually share apartments with others to cut the cost down. Monthly costs to live in DC can easly be $1500-2000. You also need to figure in the additional costs for them at home. Since its very easy for the entire public to see if they are in session or at home a lot of them pay to have increased security at home in their absence. A lot of their travel fare is not paid for either.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #47 March 8, 2005 QuoteThat's ignoring the other effects that a nationwide increase in the minimum wage would have. If your widget is best built by unskilled labor, then EVERYONE who builds that widget is going to have to either sell it for more money or make fewer of them. Either that or outsource your widget production to 11 year olds in China.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #48 March 8, 2005 Does anyone know what percentage of primary wage earners are effected by the minimum wage? When I was in college (so, outdated by at least a decade), the statistics indicated that the vast majority of minimum wage earners were "optional" earners (mostly minors working part time), not people trying to support a family. If I recall correctly, that study concluded that changes in the minimum wage (either way), or even it's abolition, would have minimal effect on the economy. This was because the primary wage earner in almost every household (even the low income ones) was above the minimum wage. As I remember, the (rather dry) economists writing that piece concluded that minimum wage laws, and attempts to change them (however) were mostly the product of politicians posturing for votes, rather than any honest attempt to help the economy.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,084 #49 March 8, 2005 >Either that or outsource your widget production to 11 year olds in China. Like I said, I was specifically not considering foreign competition because it's not comparable. But to answer the implicit question above - the answer to chinese competition is not to start hiring US 11 year olds, making them work 80 hour weeks and paying them 40 cents an hour. It's to build better stuff than the chinese, so people are willing to spend more on US products. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #50 March 8, 2005 QuoteHonestly, what good would it do raising the minimum wage over $7 an hour? Do you realize what it would do to the economy & cost of living...it would skyrocket. It's currently $7.35 in Washington state. My cost of living ain't bad at all. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 2 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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white_falcon 0 #27 March 8, 2005 Now, you are talking about a different issue. Paying bounuses or incentives for good work / xtra work is a good thing and I do the same. But the issue that started this thread is "someone" mandating what someone is paid. There is a HUGE difference. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #28 March 8, 2005 Quoteif you increase 1 wage $2 an hour, that's a little over $4000 a year. with the extra taxes, it's a little over $6000. Okay. Assume I have 3 minimum wage employees. So I increase three wages two dollars an hour. That's $12k per year. Added taxes. That's $18k. Assume the federal minimum wage is $7.10 per hour. Multiply that by 40 and you get $284.00 per week. Multiply by 52 you get $14,768.00 per year in wages for that employee. Federal minimum wage is $5.15. That comes out to $10,712 per year. Assume I have three minimum wage employees. That increases my additional labor wages (without additional taxes and WC), as you agreed, by $12,000. Now, we see that the increase in minimum wage for the three employees is actually like hiring on 1.12 new employees. (12000/10712). I can't afford to hire on another employee. So, I fire one of them to keep my overhead roughly the same. Ah, but I can increase my prices, right? No, not if I'm an astute businessman. As a businessman I have already figured out what I can charge to maximize my profit by selling 90 widgets per day at $1.55 per wigdet. Sure, if I can raise my price to $2.00, but at that price I can only sell 60. I can sell 70 at $1.75. So, what do I do? I decide to sell 80 per day at 1.65. This makes me less money than I made before. Plus, I need to pay an additional 18k per year for my three employees. Two employees can handle 80 widgets per day. So, I fire a third employee, which saves me roughly $18,000 per year with payroll and taxes. Gee. I'll bet he's glad that his two former co-workers got raises. Now he's gotta find a new job in a market with many employers just like me. Isn't the minimum wage just grand for the working man and woman? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 March 8, 2005 Quotei didnt say go public Ron. But hey, I own 100% here soo I was kidding.... But see the Dems got what they wanted here. The Min wage did not pass, but they get to blame the Republicans for it....Even though the Dems could have passed a min wage increase with almost 90 % of the vote. But they really cared more about making the Republicans look bad than they did about raising the min. wage. The Republicans say, "Lets rasie the min wage "X"." The Dems say lets raise it "X + 8". and when the repubs vote it down we will look lik ehero's and they will look like they are out to keep the little guy down." If they had REALLY cared about the little guy they would have voted the Republican raise into effect."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #30 March 8, 2005 I got it. scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #31 March 8, 2005 That was a perfect explanation...Better than I could have even attempted.."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,113 #32 March 8, 2005 QuoteAnd why, should he not reap the rewards of HIS hard work??? You (generic "you" there) feel sorry for the minimum wage earners then start a business and pay them all of the profit of the business. scott Oh, he should, but for a millionaire to grumble about the minimum wage going up is hypocritical, IMO.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #33 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd why, should he not reap the rewards of HIS hard work??? You (generic "you" there) feel sorry for the minimum wage earners then start a business and pay them all of the profit of the business. scott Oh, he should, but for a millionaire to grumble about the minimum wage going up is hypocritical, IMO. And perhaps that concern for detail and watching the bottom line is the reason one gets to be a millionaire. Ever hear the saying "take care of the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves"? Most very wealthy people I know think that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,555 #34 March 8, 2005 QuoteAnd why, should he not reap the rewards of HIS hard work??? That's probably why it's called "trickle" and not "flow" down. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #35 March 8, 2005 QuoteOh, he should, but for a millionaire to grumble about the minimum wage going up is hypocritical, IMO. What do you think about a businessman who grumbles about the cost of doing business? Do you really know his motivation? Maybe he's like Lawrocket and doesn't want to lay off one or two people that he works with every day and has lunch with and maybe his kids and their kids play together. Business is never as impersonal as "you guys" try to make out. (I've had much closer relationships with bosses and co-workers than any of my college professors. Perhaps as a function of your job you have a detachment from those you are responsible for that you are projecting on the small businessman). I just don't see this automatic stereotype that comes out concerning businessmen. {{Maybe you're right and this guy is an asshat - also possible}} ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #36 March 8, 2005 Just as an observation,I believe that Wal-Mart does more economic harm to this country than an $5.15 an hour minimum wage......Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,084 #37 March 8, 2005 I agree with most of your post, but not this part: >As a businessman I have already figured out what I can charge to >maximize my profit by selling 90 widgets per day at $1.55 per wigdet. > Sure, if I can raise my price to $2.00, but at that price I can only sell 60. >I can sell 70 at $1.75. So, what do I do? I decide to sell 80 per day at 1.65. That's ignoring the other effects that a nationwide increase in the minimum wage would have. If your widget is best built by unskilled labor, then EVERYONE who builds that widget is going to have to either sell it for more money or make fewer of them. If they make fewer of them, demand will remain the same but supply will drop, and their prices will rise anyway due to normal market forces. A statewide minimum wage _is_ a problem if done at a statewide level, because then other states become artificially more (or less) competitive. But a nationwide minimum wage doesn't make one company any more or less competitive if implemented fairly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,433 #38 March 8, 2005 Quote...if you need to raise your prices a little to make up for the cut into your profits, we can absorb this. And so wouldn't that increase the price of necessities (and the taxes for those items) for those who just got the wage increase?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #39 March 8, 2005 Quote A statewide minimum wage _is_ a problem if done at a statewide level, because then other states become artificially more (or less) competitive. But a nationwide minimum wage doesn't make one company any more or less competitive if implemented fairly. A nationwide minimum wage _is_ a problem if done at a nationwide level, because then other nations, and so on and so forth ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #40 March 8, 2005 I agree with your post to the extend that it analyzes this on a macro-economic as opposed to a micro-economic method. However, you've fallen into my trap. The rest of the country will lay off people, but demand will remain the same. The price, however, will not increase because, in our macro-economic economy, China, Korea, Mexico, etc., will all start introducing their widgets. The price increase of the widgets, as well as the increased demand, now makes it economical for foreign companies to export these widgets. Barring tariffs on these products, American companies will be undercut, thus lowering the prices and leading to further layoffs. Bill - I know from the past that you do not support price caps. Instead, that gas stations and companies should be able to charge what they want. However, why do you support price floors? Does not a price floor have a similar impact as a price cap? Artificially increasing the value of something affects marginal utility the same way as artificially capping the value of something, does it not? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #41 March 8, 2005 QuoteHowever, why do you support price floors? Does not a price floor have a similar impact as a price cap? Artificially increasing the value of something affects marginal utility the same way as artificially capping the value of something, does it not? Did this just move into the proposals to heavily tax gas? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,084 #42 March 8, 2005 >However, why do you support price floors? Does not a price floor have a > similar impact as a price cap? Artificially increasing the value of >something affects marginal utility the same way as artificially capping >the value of something, does it not? I don't support the proposed minimum wage increase. I was just pointing out that it does not make a product less competitive in a given market if the entire market is subjected to the same wage pressure. I have purposely ignored China et al in the wage discussion because there are many other factors that make people buy or not buy Chinese products; imports and exports are a whole 'nother ball of wax. (Clearly, if wages were the only issue, no one would ever buy any american products, which isn't the case.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #43 March 8, 2005 I understand, bill. Sorry for my implication in that. Edited to add: "Implication?" Heck, I made an outright statement that you support it. My bad. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #44 March 8, 2005 QuoteAnd so wouldn't that increase the price of necessities (and the taxes for those items) for those who just got the wage increase? Well the thing is this. The min wage goes up 1.00. The cost of doing business goes up, so prices for goods and services also go up. (Nice thinking that the fat cats will just take a pay reduction...But most companies are working at a basic profit margin Owners want to make money...And Public companies owe it to stock holders to keep turning a profit)...So the prices WILL go up. Maybe not a 1:1 ratio, maybe .5:1 so a good that did cost 1.00 now costs 1.50... OK the min wage folks do get a little better deal. But lets not forget that most min wage folks are not supporting families. The real problem is that min wage goes up a buck to lets say 6.25/hr. The guy that was making 6.50 is NOT going to get a raise, so in essence he just took a pay cut since inflation will raise the cost of goods and services. It sounds good to say you are making more money, but inflation will eat a portion of it and those that don't get that raise get screwed. Just like in "The Hitch Hickers Guide to the Galaxy" if money did grow on trees, everyone would be rich and no one could afford anything."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #45 March 8, 2005 Quotei work in the construction industry. i pay employees what they are worth to me. if i have 2 guys working for me, 1 sits around, the other busts his hump, the guy who sits around goes home at the end of the day with a paycheck and no job. if i hire a new guy that knows more and is a better worker, he gets more money. and my payscale starts a good bit higher than min wage. when i sign my union contract, it will be almost 5x the min wage. then my prices go up, so do my bids. if i don't get a job because of it, i will move on to the next one and get it. not only am i the company owner, but a paid employee. it's a really neat system, i would recommend that everyone would vote to unionize, that solves the min wage issue. The neat part about unions is that most are based on seniority, so once you have it, busting your hump becomes optional. The union for the cable car operators in San Francisco had a mini walkoff last week - ostensibly to protest the firing of two guys that were stealing from the till. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #46 March 8, 2005 Just remember a large portion of the funds that the Legalsative branch is paid ends up being droped back into the DC economy. Each elected official needs to maintain their residency in their home district plus they must also estabilish a presence in DC. Usually thats done by renting an apartment near the capital. Cost of modest rent in that area is expensive. Hell the entire area around DC is either expensive or its expensive slums. I know a lot of legaslatitres actually share apartments with others to cut the cost down. Monthly costs to live in DC can easly be $1500-2000. You also need to figure in the additional costs for them at home. Since its very easy for the entire public to see if they are in session or at home a lot of them pay to have increased security at home in their absence. A lot of their travel fare is not paid for either.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #47 March 8, 2005 QuoteThat's ignoring the other effects that a nationwide increase in the minimum wage would have. If your widget is best built by unskilled labor, then EVERYONE who builds that widget is going to have to either sell it for more money or make fewer of them. Either that or outsource your widget production to 11 year olds in China.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #48 March 8, 2005 Does anyone know what percentage of primary wage earners are effected by the minimum wage? When I was in college (so, outdated by at least a decade), the statistics indicated that the vast majority of minimum wage earners were "optional" earners (mostly minors working part time), not people trying to support a family. If I recall correctly, that study concluded that changes in the minimum wage (either way), or even it's abolition, would have minimal effect on the economy. This was because the primary wage earner in almost every household (even the low income ones) was above the minimum wage. As I remember, the (rather dry) economists writing that piece concluded that minimum wage laws, and attempts to change them (however) were mostly the product of politicians posturing for votes, rather than any honest attempt to help the economy.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,084 #49 March 8, 2005 >Either that or outsource your widget production to 11 year olds in China. Like I said, I was specifically not considering foreign competition because it's not comparable. But to answer the implicit question above - the answer to chinese competition is not to start hiring US 11 year olds, making them work 80 hour weeks and paying them 40 cents an hour. It's to build better stuff than the chinese, so people are willing to spend more on US products. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #50 March 8, 2005 QuoteHonestly, what good would it do raising the minimum wage over $7 an hour? Do you realize what it would do to the economy & cost of living...it would skyrocket. It's currently $7.35 in Washington state. My cost of living ain't bad at all. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
