crwtom 0 #26 March 7, 2005 QuoteI just deplore the tendency of european press to "blame America first"... just like some of our own people do. well ... read back a few posts in this "American thread" and you will find that the first blame was assigned to those who had been shot to pieces - that they had only themselves to blame - before any facts were known. Whatever kneejerk narrow mindedness you're talking about - there's certainly no deficit of it on this side . To me the more remarkable fact surrounding the story is the continued success of the Italian intelligence officers in the undercover negotiations much in contast to the total impotence of the supposedly so mightly US intelligence apparatus. The fact that the Italians could get their hostages free but not the US must have been a thorn in the eyes of many US agencies (- and may even fuel those conspiracy theories). The abismal state US intelligence is in, in particular with respect to negotiation capabilities, is pretty much a direct consequence of the moronic bluntness of US foreign policy and a commander in chief who isn't on top of anything. Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #27 March 7, 2005 QuoteAssumed, thought, whatever... A long time ago I had a First Sergeant explain to me that "assumptions are the mother of fuck-ups". Obviously, it's still true.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 2 #28 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI just deplore the tendency of european press to "blame America first"... just like some of our own people do. well ... read back a few posts in this "American thread" and you will find that the first blame was assigned to those who had been shot to pieces - that they had only themselves to blame - before any facts were known. Whatever kneejerk narrow mindedness you're talking about - there's certainly no deficit of it on this side . Really? I can't find anyone who's definitely assigning blame. I myself have been pointing out alternative ways things might have happened the way they did as well as voicing my opinion about the relative likelihood among those possiblities. Nobody will know anything for sure until all the facts are in. Quote To me the more remarkable fact surrounding the story is the continued success of the Italian intelligence officers in the undercover negotiations much in contast to the total impotence of the supposedly so mightly US intelligence apparatus. The fact that the Italians could get their hostages free but not the US must have been a thorn in the eyes of many US agencies (- and may even fuel those conspiracy theories). Of course if the secret to the Italian's success is that they are willing to pay off the kidnappers to the tune of large sums of money, that would certainly explain the discrepency, wouldn't it? But of course, that would entail other less desireable consequences, such as encouraging more kidnapping. Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #29 March 7, 2005 QuoteOf course if the secret to the Italian's success is that they are willing to pay off the kidnappers to the tune of large sums of money, that would certainly explain the discrepency, wouldn't it? But of course, that would entail other less desireable consequences, such as encouraging more kidnapping. True. But based on if. We'll see. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #30 March 7, 2005 Yes, it's based on "if" but do you really think that the Italian Government will stand up and say "yes, we paid a ransom." ? Wouldn't that put all italians at increased risk for being kidnapped and held for ransom, if the Government did that? I should think it would. And I don't expect the Italian government to stand up and say they did...however, if one looks at news reports, the kidnapping of Italians in September '04 has the same sort of "rumor" around them...that a substantial sum of money was paid for their release. And even had they not (which I believe they have), doesn't even the mere appearance of such stimulate the kidnappers? Again, I should think so. As to the other aspect of the situation - the not notifying the United States checkpoint that they were coming through...in thinking about it, I think what may have happened was the Italians did not tell the US they were coming through because they would've had to announce that they had the journalist, and perhaps then the US would've stopped them, questioned them as to the location of the kidnappers and details of the release, and the Italians didn't want to reveal that at the moment. Perhaps part of the negotiations were to not reveal the kidnappers whereabouts until there had been time to leave the area, or something along those lines. I'll bet that we discover something along those lines in the near future. And I can't say I blame the soldiers for taking that action which they deemed appropriate to save themselves. And nor would I blame anyone should the same happen to one of our guys. I "predict" italian is kidnapped shortly, say within the next 3-4 months...and again, they won't be beheaded (as the British lady, the US guys, the Japanese (iirc) and others have been) but miraculously "released" or "rescued." One last note: it's pretty easy to find someone in the middle of Iraq "under the noses of the US" when they're in communication with the hostage takers...don't you think? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #31 March 7, 2005 QuoteOne last note: it's pretty easy to find someone in the middle of Iraq "under the noses of the US" when they're in communication with the hostage takers...don't you think? Getting in touch with the hostage takers is never a hard thing to do, if you talk to the right people. And the right people are never hard to find either. Especially for people who make a living out of contacting these people. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikkey 0 #32 March 7, 2005 Fresh of the wire: QuoteAn investigation into the fatal shooting of a Bulgarian soldier in Iraq last week has shown that US troops are probably responsible, the Balkan state's Defence Minister says. The assessment of the incident comes as Italy prepares to hold a full state funeral for an Italian secret service agent, who was shot dead by US troops after helping free an Italian journalist. Bulgarian Defence Minister Nikolai Svinarov told journalists that a Bulgarian patrol had fired warning shots in the air in an attempt to halt an Iraqi vehicle. "Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction, 150 metres away, there was a unit from the US Army," he said. "The result (of the investigation) gives us enough grounds to believe the death of rifleman Gurdi Gurdev was caused by friendly fire." Maybe the issue is that the stress of the occupation has made many US troops too trigger happy?--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #33 March 7, 2005 "Too trigger-happy?" What, they're supposed to wait until one of their guys gets hit before they return fire, then? I don't friggin think so!!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rasmack 0 #34 March 7, 2005 QuoteWhat, they're supposed to wait until one of their guys gets hit before they return fire, then? I don't friggin think so!!! Surelu you do not mean to exclude the possibility that scared 21-year old guys with weapons can make bad decisions. It is probably a tough environment down there. Mistakes can be made.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ScottishJohn 25 #35 March 7, 2005 did the Bulgarian troops fire on the US Troops. If Not then it was not "return fire" it was someone shooting before confirming if the target was friendly or foe.---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 2 #36 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat, they're supposed to wait until one of their guys gets hit before they return fire, then? I don't friggin think so!!! Surelu you do not mean to exclude the possibility that scared 21-year old guys with weapons can make bad decisions. It is probably a tough environment down there. Mistakes can be made. Absolutely. This has happened and has been widely reported in the press. Anyone who's kept track at all of the war is aware that, if you want to stay alive in Iraq, it can be critical to dot all your i's when traveling anywhere there. But doesn't that make it all the more important for those who can to coordinate their movements with the highest levels of the coalition command? Surely, the Italians had the contacts to be able to do that. They should have known that that would have been their safest course of action. Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #37 March 7, 2005 QuoteUnfortunately the modus operandi for checkpoints is to blast any unidentified vehicle coming at you at high speed. You can thank suicide car bombers for that. Don't blame the troops. Very unfortunate. Correct. Protect yourself first. The soldiers have been forced into this position of high alert. You'd think an intelligence officer (Italian or otherwise) would have a better plan than that. You don't go "outside the wire" without a plan, backup plan, and "go to hell" plan for getting back in. (e.g. Stop a safe distance away (preferably out of small arms range) and use flare, smoke, HOW ABOUT radio commo!!!, flag, etc.; if you must come in fast due to being pursued, how about a loudspeaker with prior coordinated radio communication with the guys who are going to save your ass when you get back to the green zone?; otherwise, how about coming in slowly so as not to draw attention like everybody else who wants to live in a freakin warzone?) This was a brave guy for dying to protect this lady but you've got to use that grape on the top of your shoulders when downrange. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikkey 0 #38 March 7, 2005 You assume that the car was speeding towards the check point (which the Italians say they did not). You assume that there was no communication from the Italians informing the Americans they were coming. Let's see what the investigation shows. I would recommend people to interchange American with Italian (or in the other case American with Bulgarian) and then imagine what the reaction would have been in the US and on this board.....--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rasmack 0 #39 March 8, 2005 Following up on this: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12486032-23109,00.html http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7836484 A couple of quotes; QuoteItaly's foreign minister said on Tuesday the killing of an Italian intelligence agent in Iraq by U.S. forces had been a tragic accident, but added that Rome did not believe the U.S. military's version of events. QuoteCalipari had made "all the necessary contacts" with US authorities in Baghdad, the foreign minister said. So right now the picture seems to be along the lines of "scared boys with guns" or communications breakdown within the US command.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #40 March 8, 2005 QuoteCalipari had made "all the necessary contacts" with US authorities in Baghdad, the foreign minister said. Obviously not with the ones at the gate with all the guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #41 March 8, 2005 This is not a reply directly to rasmack: If you do not have a subscription to Reason magazine, you should. This is the response over this situation from my weekly Reason mailing list: "Italian outrage over American troops in Iraq firing on the car carrying just-released ex-hostage Giuliana Sgrena is a bit over-the-top and seems designed to obscure a far more important issue. Yes, any accidental shooting in a war zone is a tragic thing, but some perspective puts the onus back on the Italians to explain what they were up to in Iraq. The story - that U.S. troops just suddenly opened up on the one car carrying a just-released journalist and her Italian secret service driver - never made sense. In the absence of any real indication of what happened, the more likely story is that the driver was using evasive driving tactics to skirt U.S. checkpoints and troops. That sort of thing does not go unnoticed by soldiers, not after months in-country. Even less sensible is Sgrena's claim that she was somehow targeted by U.S. troops, yet made it home. The far bigger issue is the attempt to secretly pay ransom for Sgrena's release. There is no doubt that the six million-euro ransom will soon be put to use killing more Iraqis and Americans. Further, it guarantees that more Western hostages will be taken, especially European ones, female if possible. This is not the moral high ground, and the Italian government and Sgrena know it."Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rasmack 0 #42 March 9, 2005 QuoteObviously not with the ones at the gate with all the guns. Well, the people at the gate with the guns might not be as well trained as is generally assumed here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1517327,00.html QuoteA British officer in Basra said: “The Americans can be pretty pumped-up. Sometimes they fire in broad daylight when we are travelling at two miles per hour, shouting that we are British out of the window and waving the Union Jack.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikkey 0 #43 March 9, 2005 The Italian Prime Minister has said that the US forces had been advised of the car heading towards the airport and that it travelled at 40 KM/H (thats about 30 MPH)......--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #44 March 10, 2005 All the gear and no idea!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #45 March 10, 2005 Quote All the gear and no idea! After having trained with and trained units of the British Army this comment strikes me as about the normal attitude of the general Brit soldier. One Infantry officer actually told me "I think our normal infantry units are as well trained as your Ranger Battalions". They also generally claimed that the only thing we had over them was more money and that they were of a generally higher caliber of soldier. I guess they believed that being British just made you better than everyone else. Of course they stopped the comparisons after we out shot them, out marched them, and generally knocked their dicks in the dirt during the training exercises. The British Army seems to have an inferiority complex nowdays. Yeah, I'm generalizing but so are you guys. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #46 March 11, 2005 LOL...A bite! I got a bite! Someone get over here and help me land this one, he must be 200 pounds at least!! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #47 March 12, 2005 Quote LOL...A bite! I got a bite! Someone get over here and help me land this one, he must be 200 pounds at least!! You have nothing better to add to your initial insults than this? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #48 March 13, 2005 QuoteThe far bigger issue is the attempt to secretly pay ransom for Sgrena's release. There is no doubt that the six million-euro ransom will soon be put to use killing more Iraqis and Americans. Further, it guarantees that more Western hostages will be taken, especially European ones, female if possible. This is not the moral high ground, and the Italian government and Sgrena know it." Yup, something I suspected and stated earlier in this thread. Today, it was confirmed that there was a ransom paid...which would completely explain why the Italians were not known to be in-country, and why they might've been taking evasive action and/or avoiding checkpoints. Damn it....paying a ransom only encourages these asshats. Watch for several more hostages...but not British/American...only those countries which have a track record for paying ransom. Furthermore, there are hints that AQ/Iraq AQ are trying to get the funds together to hit soft targets in the US....I wonder where the ransom money is going??? (yes, I'm being sarcastic. I can figure out where it's going...) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikkey 0 #49 March 15, 2005 Here is an update. The Italians are pissed off enough to start pulling their troops out... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4352259.stm--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #50 April 15, 2005 ****UPDATE**** http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7491280/ Report clears U.S. in friendly fire incident Italian negotiator failed to coordinate rescue with U.S. military By Jim Miklaszewski Correspondent NBC News Updated: 7:37 p.m. ET April 13, 2005BAGHDAD - The friendly fire shooting at a U.S. military checkpoint last month in Baghdad wounded Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena and killed intelligence agent Nicola Calipari. advertisement Now, NBC News has learned that a preliminary report from a joint U.S.-Italian investigation has cleared the American soldiers of any wrongdoing and provides new details into the shooting. Intelligence agent Calipari had just negotiated Sgrena's release from Iraqi kidnappers on March 4 when the two and a driver headed for the Baghdad airport in a compact rental car. It was dark when the Italians turned onto a ramp leading to the airport road where the U.S. military had set up a temporary checkpoint. The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force — a machine gun burst that killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena and the driver. Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots, but insist the soldiers acted properly under the current rules of engagement. The investigation failed, however, to resolve one critical dispute: The Americans claim the car was racing toward the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour, the Italians say it was traveling at a much slower speed. In Italy, agent Calipari was given a state funeral, but the investigation found he himself may have committed a fatal error. He reportedly chose not to coordinate his movements with the U.S. military for fear it would jeopardize his efforts to free the Italian hostage. Sgrena, meanwhile, disputes the military's account and says she has little confidence the investigation will reveal the truth. As a result of the incident, the U.S. military will review its procedures regarding the use of lethal force at checkpoints, but senior military officials say they'll take no action that would put American soldiers at greater risk. © 2005 MSNBC Interactive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
likearock 2 #28 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI just deplore the tendency of european press to "blame America first"... just like some of our own people do. well ... read back a few posts in this "American thread" and you will find that the first blame was assigned to those who had been shot to pieces - that they had only themselves to blame - before any facts were known. Whatever kneejerk narrow mindedness you're talking about - there's certainly no deficit of it on this side . Really? I can't find anyone who's definitely assigning blame. I myself have been pointing out alternative ways things might have happened the way they did as well as voicing my opinion about the relative likelihood among those possiblities. Nobody will know anything for sure until all the facts are in. Quote To me the more remarkable fact surrounding the story is the continued success of the Italian intelligence officers in the undercover negotiations much in contast to the total impotence of the supposedly so mightly US intelligence apparatus. The fact that the Italians could get their hostages free but not the US must have been a thorn in the eyes of many US agencies (- and may even fuel those conspiracy theories). Of course if the secret to the Italian's success is that they are willing to pay off the kidnappers to the tune of large sums of money, that would certainly explain the discrepency, wouldn't it? But of course, that would entail other less desireable consequences, such as encouraging more kidnapping. Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #29 March 7, 2005 QuoteOf course if the secret to the Italian's success is that they are willing to pay off the kidnappers to the tune of large sums of money, that would certainly explain the discrepency, wouldn't it? But of course, that would entail other less desireable consequences, such as encouraging more kidnapping. True. But based on if. We'll see. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #30 March 7, 2005 Yes, it's based on "if" but do you really think that the Italian Government will stand up and say "yes, we paid a ransom." ? Wouldn't that put all italians at increased risk for being kidnapped and held for ransom, if the Government did that? I should think it would. And I don't expect the Italian government to stand up and say they did...however, if one looks at news reports, the kidnapping of Italians in September '04 has the same sort of "rumor" around them...that a substantial sum of money was paid for their release. And even had they not (which I believe they have), doesn't even the mere appearance of such stimulate the kidnappers? Again, I should think so. As to the other aspect of the situation - the not notifying the United States checkpoint that they were coming through...in thinking about it, I think what may have happened was the Italians did not tell the US they were coming through because they would've had to announce that they had the journalist, and perhaps then the US would've stopped them, questioned them as to the location of the kidnappers and details of the release, and the Italians didn't want to reveal that at the moment. Perhaps part of the negotiations were to not reveal the kidnappers whereabouts until there had been time to leave the area, or something along those lines. I'll bet that we discover something along those lines in the near future. And I can't say I blame the soldiers for taking that action which they deemed appropriate to save themselves. And nor would I blame anyone should the same happen to one of our guys. I "predict" italian is kidnapped shortly, say within the next 3-4 months...and again, they won't be beheaded (as the British lady, the US guys, the Japanese (iirc) and others have been) but miraculously "released" or "rescued." One last note: it's pretty easy to find someone in the middle of Iraq "under the noses of the US" when they're in communication with the hostage takers...don't you think? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #31 March 7, 2005 QuoteOne last note: it's pretty easy to find someone in the middle of Iraq "under the noses of the US" when they're in communication with the hostage takers...don't you think? Getting in touch with the hostage takers is never a hard thing to do, if you talk to the right people. And the right people are never hard to find either. Especially for people who make a living out of contacting these people. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #32 March 7, 2005 Fresh of the wire: QuoteAn investigation into the fatal shooting of a Bulgarian soldier in Iraq last week has shown that US troops are probably responsible, the Balkan state's Defence Minister says. The assessment of the incident comes as Italy prepares to hold a full state funeral for an Italian secret service agent, who was shot dead by US troops after helping free an Italian journalist. Bulgarian Defence Minister Nikolai Svinarov told journalists that a Bulgarian patrol had fired warning shots in the air in an attempt to halt an Iraqi vehicle. "Someone started shooting at our patrol from the west, and in the same direction, 150 metres away, there was a unit from the US Army," he said. "The result (of the investigation) gives us enough grounds to believe the death of rifleman Gurdi Gurdev was caused by friendly fire." Maybe the issue is that the stress of the occupation has made many US troops too trigger happy?--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #33 March 7, 2005 "Too trigger-happy?" What, they're supposed to wait until one of their guys gets hit before they return fire, then? I don't friggin think so!!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #34 March 7, 2005 QuoteWhat, they're supposed to wait until one of their guys gets hit before they return fire, then? I don't friggin think so!!! Surelu you do not mean to exclude the possibility that scared 21-year old guys with weapons can make bad decisions. It is probably a tough environment down there. Mistakes can be made.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottishJohn 25 #35 March 7, 2005 did the Bulgarian troops fire on the US Troops. If Not then it was not "return fire" it was someone shooting before confirming if the target was friendly or foe.---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #36 March 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat, they're supposed to wait until one of their guys gets hit before they return fire, then? I don't friggin think so!!! Surelu you do not mean to exclude the possibility that scared 21-year old guys with weapons can make bad decisions. It is probably a tough environment down there. Mistakes can be made. Absolutely. This has happened and has been widely reported in the press. Anyone who's kept track at all of the war is aware that, if you want to stay alive in Iraq, it can be critical to dot all your i's when traveling anywhere there. But doesn't that make it all the more important for those who can to coordinate their movements with the highest levels of the coalition command? Surely, the Italians had the contacts to be able to do that. They should have known that that would have been their safest course of action. Wayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #37 March 7, 2005 QuoteUnfortunately the modus operandi for checkpoints is to blast any unidentified vehicle coming at you at high speed. You can thank suicide car bombers for that. Don't blame the troops. Very unfortunate. Correct. Protect yourself first. The soldiers have been forced into this position of high alert. You'd think an intelligence officer (Italian or otherwise) would have a better plan than that. You don't go "outside the wire" without a plan, backup plan, and "go to hell" plan for getting back in. (e.g. Stop a safe distance away (preferably out of small arms range) and use flare, smoke, HOW ABOUT radio commo!!!, flag, etc.; if you must come in fast due to being pursued, how about a loudspeaker with prior coordinated radio communication with the guys who are going to save your ass when you get back to the green zone?; otherwise, how about coming in slowly so as not to draw attention like everybody else who wants to live in a freakin warzone?) This was a brave guy for dying to protect this lady but you've got to use that grape on the top of your shoulders when downrange. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #38 March 7, 2005 You assume that the car was speeding towards the check point (which the Italians say they did not). You assume that there was no communication from the Italians informing the Americans they were coming. Let's see what the investigation shows. I would recommend people to interchange American with Italian (or in the other case American with Bulgarian) and then imagine what the reaction would have been in the US and on this board.....--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #39 March 8, 2005 Following up on this: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12486032-23109,00.html http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=7836484 A couple of quotes; QuoteItaly's foreign minister said on Tuesday the killing of an Italian intelligence agent in Iraq by U.S. forces had been a tragic accident, but added that Rome did not believe the U.S. military's version of events. QuoteCalipari had made "all the necessary contacts" with US authorities in Baghdad, the foreign minister said. So right now the picture seems to be along the lines of "scared boys with guns" or communications breakdown within the US command.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #40 March 8, 2005 QuoteCalipari had made "all the necessary contacts" with US authorities in Baghdad, the foreign minister said. Obviously not with the ones at the gate with all the guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #41 March 8, 2005 This is not a reply directly to rasmack: If you do not have a subscription to Reason magazine, you should. This is the response over this situation from my weekly Reason mailing list: "Italian outrage over American troops in Iraq firing on the car carrying just-released ex-hostage Giuliana Sgrena is a bit over-the-top and seems designed to obscure a far more important issue. Yes, any accidental shooting in a war zone is a tragic thing, but some perspective puts the onus back on the Italians to explain what they were up to in Iraq. The story - that U.S. troops just suddenly opened up on the one car carrying a just-released journalist and her Italian secret service driver - never made sense. In the absence of any real indication of what happened, the more likely story is that the driver was using evasive driving tactics to skirt U.S. checkpoints and troops. That sort of thing does not go unnoticed by soldiers, not after months in-country. Even less sensible is Sgrena's claim that she was somehow targeted by U.S. troops, yet made it home. The far bigger issue is the attempt to secretly pay ransom for Sgrena's release. There is no doubt that the six million-euro ransom will soon be put to use killing more Iraqis and Americans. Further, it guarantees that more Western hostages will be taken, especially European ones, female if possible. This is not the moral high ground, and the Italian government and Sgrena know it."Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #42 March 9, 2005 QuoteObviously not with the ones at the gate with all the guns. Well, the people at the gate with the guns might not be as well trained as is generally assumed here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1517327,00.html QuoteA British officer in Basra said: “The Americans can be pretty pumped-up. Sometimes they fire in broad daylight when we are travelling at two miles per hour, shouting that we are British out of the window and waving the Union Jack.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #43 March 9, 2005 The Italian Prime Minister has said that the US forces had been advised of the car heading towards the airport and that it travelled at 40 KM/H (thats about 30 MPH)......--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #44 March 10, 2005 All the gear and no idea!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #45 March 10, 2005 Quote All the gear and no idea! After having trained with and trained units of the British Army this comment strikes me as about the normal attitude of the general Brit soldier. One Infantry officer actually told me "I think our normal infantry units are as well trained as your Ranger Battalions". They also generally claimed that the only thing we had over them was more money and that they were of a generally higher caliber of soldier. I guess they believed that being British just made you better than everyone else. Of course they stopped the comparisons after we out shot them, out marched them, and generally knocked their dicks in the dirt during the training exercises. The British Army seems to have an inferiority complex nowdays. Yeah, I'm generalizing but so are you guys. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #46 March 11, 2005 LOL...A bite! I got a bite! Someone get over here and help me land this one, he must be 200 pounds at least!! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #47 March 12, 2005 Quote LOL...A bite! I got a bite! Someone get over here and help me land this one, he must be 200 pounds at least!! You have nothing better to add to your initial insults than this? "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #48 March 13, 2005 QuoteThe far bigger issue is the attempt to secretly pay ransom for Sgrena's release. There is no doubt that the six million-euro ransom will soon be put to use killing more Iraqis and Americans. Further, it guarantees that more Western hostages will be taken, especially European ones, female if possible. This is not the moral high ground, and the Italian government and Sgrena know it." Yup, something I suspected and stated earlier in this thread. Today, it was confirmed that there was a ransom paid...which would completely explain why the Italians were not known to be in-country, and why they might've been taking evasive action and/or avoiding checkpoints. Damn it....paying a ransom only encourages these asshats. Watch for several more hostages...but not British/American...only those countries which have a track record for paying ransom. Furthermore, there are hints that AQ/Iraq AQ are trying to get the funds together to hit soft targets in the US....I wonder where the ransom money is going??? (yes, I'm being sarcastic. I can figure out where it's going...) Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #49 March 15, 2005 Here is an update. The Italians are pissed off enough to start pulling their troops out... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4352259.stm--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #50 April 15, 2005 ****UPDATE**** http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7491280/ Report clears U.S. in friendly fire incident Italian negotiator failed to coordinate rescue with U.S. military By Jim Miklaszewski Correspondent NBC News Updated: 7:37 p.m. ET April 13, 2005BAGHDAD - The friendly fire shooting at a U.S. military checkpoint last month in Baghdad wounded Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena and killed intelligence agent Nicola Calipari. advertisement Now, NBC News has learned that a preliminary report from a joint U.S.-Italian investigation has cleared the American soldiers of any wrongdoing and provides new details into the shooting. Intelligence agent Calipari had just negotiated Sgrena's release from Iraqi kidnappers on March 4 when the two and a driver headed for the Baghdad airport in a compact rental car. It was dark when the Italians turned onto a ramp leading to the airport road where the U.S. military had set up a temporary checkpoint. The investigation found the car was about 130 yards from the checkpoint when the soldiers flashed their lights as a warning to stop. But the car kept coming and, at 90 yards, warning shots were fired. At 65 yards, when the car failed to stop, the soldiers used lethal force — a machine gun burst that killed Calipari and wounded Sgrena and the driver. Senior U.S. military officials say it took only about four seconds from the first warning to the fatal shots, but insist the soldiers acted properly under the current rules of engagement. The investigation failed, however, to resolve one critical dispute: The Americans claim the car was racing toward the checkpoint at about 50 miles per hour, the Italians say it was traveling at a much slower speed. In Italy, agent Calipari was given a state funeral, but the investigation found he himself may have committed a fatal error. He reportedly chose not to coordinate his movements with the U.S. military for fear it would jeopardize his efforts to free the Italian hostage. Sgrena, meanwhile, disputes the military's account and says she has little confidence the investigation will reveal the truth. As a result of the incident, the U.S. military will review its procedures regarding the use of lethal force at checkpoints, but senior military officials say they'll take no action that would put American soldiers at greater risk. © 2005 MSNBC Interactive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
