Ironic...

[TypicalFish 0]

...that the intelligence officer that negotiated her release also threw himself over her to protect her from gunfire and was killed... Selfless...

U.S. Forces Wound Freed Hostage In Iraq

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[Sinkster 0]

Unfortunately the modus operandi for checkpoints is to blast any unidentified vehicle coming at you at high speed.

You can thank suicide car bombers for that. Don't blame the troops. Very unfortunate.

[MC208B 0]

I prefer to call them homicide car bombers

[jdhill 0]

Maybe if the Italians had coordinated their passage into the controlled zone it would have turned out a little different... or they could have obeyed the warnings to stop too...

The Italion PM wants a full investigation. Unfortunately for him, from the info that is available now it is likely to point back to his people who screwed up.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[skydyvr 0]

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I prefer to call them homicide car bombers

Even FOX News has given up the quest to transcend the expression "suicide bomber" into "homicide bomber". As much sense as it makes, people just don't want to switch.

Maybe we can get the people who got us calling homosexuals "gay" to work on it.

. . =(_8^(1)

[likearock 2]

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I prefer to call them homicide car bombers

Even FOX News has given up the quest to transcend the expression "suicide bomber" into "homicide bomber". As much sense as it makes, people just don't want to switch.

Maybe we can get the people who got us calling homosexuals "gay" to work on it.

The problem with calling them homicide bombers is that all bombers are homicide bombers. However there is a distinction between those people who actually carry the bombs on their person and those that detonate them by remote control.

Wayne

[Trent 0]

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The Italion PM wants a full investigation. Unfortunately for him, from the info that is available now it is likely to point back to his people who screwed up.

So far, as you said... it would take a huge failing in logic to assume that the troops at the checkpoint would have acted in any other way. It would also seem pretty logical that a convoy of friendlies would know where the checkpoints are and communicate their passage in advance or heed the protocol of stopping. But hey, that's just what WOULD HAVE made sense.

Instead, someone dropped the ball, on the Italian side, and the troops at the checkpoint did what they were supposed to do.

Unfortunately, logic and reason won't put out the already flaming anti-US sentiments in Italy. It'll be just another excuse for people to protest. Remember, just like it is easy for people to blame drugs and guns for crime, it is easy for people to blame the US instead of looking at their own mistakes. It's a shame that this mistake cost a seemingly good man his life.

Oh, hello again!

[jdfreefly 1]

I prefer to call them suicide bombers.

To each their own.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Skyrad 0]

I have to agree that i don't see how this can be anyone elses fault than the Italian security details. Driving at speed at night towards a VCP. In a hostile envirovment does seem pretty stupid. I can't blame the US Soldiers for opening fire, so long as it didn't breech their rules of engagement tis is a case of its a war, unfortunatly shit happens.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kmcguffee 0]

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Unfortunately, logic and reason won't put out the already flaming anti-US sentiments in Italy. It'll be just another excuse for people to protest.

I'm sure that this is the theory that the European press will run with:

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Speaking to the Guardian last night, Il Manifesto's foreign editor, Angela Pascucci, rejected suggestions that Sgrena had been targeted by the US because she had written about abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.

The Guardian is already suggesting a new conspiracy theory.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[likearock 2]

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Unfortunately, logic and reason won't put out the already flaming anti-US sentiments in Italy. It'll be just another excuse for people to protest. Remember, just like it is easy for people to blame drugs and guns for crime, it is easy for people to blame the US instead of looking at their own mistakes.

Yup. It's already started.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/italy.iraq/index.html

Disgusting that she would suggest some conspiracy was involved, but obviously she's someone with an axe to grind.

Edited to add: On second thought, the fact that she believed the conspiriacy theory would explain nicely why things might have happened the way they did:

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And in an article for Sunday's edition of her newspaper, Il Manifesto, she said the shooting, which occurred Friday as agents were taking her to the airport in Baghdad, recalled her captors' warning that "the Americans don't want you to return."

Naturally, if you believe that, you're not going to stop for any checkpoints.

Wayne

[rasmack 0]

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Naturally, if you believe that, you're not going to stop for any checkpoints.

Did you read the rest?

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"I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths."

Furthermore:

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"It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight,"

I am not saying that I know what happened here. I am just noting that it seems that two different perceptions of this incident exist.

It is possible that the Italians think they did everything they could to appear friendly. It is likewise (obviously) possible that the soldiers felt threatened. None of us are in the position to determine the "objective truth". We can just note another tragedy in this war.

Please do not try to assign blame from the comfort of your home. (not aimed at you in particular)

Peace

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[likearock 2]

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Naturally, if you believe that, you're not going to stop for any checkpoints.

Did you read the rest?

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"I considered those words superfluous and ideological. At that moment they risked acquiring the flavor of the bitterest of truths."

Furthermore:

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"It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol that shot as soon as they lit us up with a spotlight,"

I am not saying that I know what happened here. I am just noting that it seems that two different perceptions of this incident exist.

It is possible that the Italians think they did everything they could to appear friendly. It is likewise (obviously) possible that the soldiers felt threatened. None of us are in the position to determine the "objective truth". We can just note another tragedy in this war.

Please do not try to assign blame from the comfort of your home. (not aimed at you in particular)

Peace

I'm sorry, I just feel the same way as Trent about the ridiculous efforts to make everything the fault of the Americans. I'm not a gung-ho Bush right or wronger myself, but it's obvious that this journalist has an axe to grind and is not even deterred enough by this tragic situation to restrain herself:

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Sgrena said she "risked everything" to challenge "the Italian government, who didn't want journalists to reach Iraq, and the Americans," who she said did not want the public to see "what really became of that country with the war, and notwithstanding that which they call elections."

Her possible state of mind can also be indicated by the numerous accusations by her collegues on Il Manifesto that the whole thing was "intentional" and an "assassination".

I'm just trying to figure out which of the following outcomes is the least absurd:

• The Americans had a "hit" out on Sgrena.
• American forces routinely fire indescriminately into cars for no reason.
• Sgrena, who was so consumed with her Oliver Stone conspiracy paranoia, instructed her driver to stop for no one on the way to the airport

Personally, if I had to bet on it, I'd go with number three.

Wayne

[rasmack 0]

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I'm just trying to figure out which of the following outcomes is the least absurd:

* The Americans had a "hit" out on Sgrena.
* American forces routinely fire indescriminately into cars for no reason.
* Sgrena, who was so consumed with her Oliver Stone conspiracy paranoia, instructed her driver to stop for no one on the way to the airport

Personally, if I had to bet on it, I'd go with number three.

He he I like this way of lining it up. Option 1 is of course ridiculous. Options 2 and 3 are equally unlikely, and I would think that the truth is somewhere in between.

Cheers

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Trent 0]

Of course she's pointing fingers at the US troops. She's part of the "Blame America First" crowd.

Some interesting thoughts on the situation...

... If the Italians knew they were getting her out, what possible reason would there be not to alert the nearest US commanders so that they could be escorted or at least expected on a certain route?

... If the Italians had some strange reason for not wanting to tell the people that are posting checkpoints and patrolling their road home, what could that reason have been? Makes me wonder what kind of negotiations got that journalist out. Did they pay for her to be released? Did they make promises that they probably shouldn't have? It makes the whole thing seem really shady to me.

Just seems like the Italians had something going on that they knew wasn't in accordance with the coalition practices, and were trying to sneak her out so they wouldn't have to explain what deals they may have made.

Now I don't want to think that they did something like that, but the shadiness of the whole thing is suspicious.

EDIT: And as for the asinine suggestions from the journalists "partner" that it was an American ambush or assasination attempt... If they wanted everyone in those cars dead, they would be. No question. Why would they try to kill someone, then patch her up and send her home so she could talk shit? Come on... Like I said earlier, rational thought and logic just seem out of reach for an unfortunately large group of people.

Oh, hello again!

[Frenchy68 0]

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Sgrena, who was so consumed with her Oliver Stone conspiracy paranoia, instructed her driver to stop for no one on the way to the airport

I do not know that for a fact, but would assume that the driver was not "Her" driver, but rather someone working for the Italian Secret Services. I would find it unlikely that she could order the driver to do anything.
Much like Rasmack, I would think that the truth lies somewhere in between; probably a case of both side making mistakes, and all the pieces unfortunately came together to create this tragedy.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Frenchy68 0]

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Now I don't want to think that they did something like that, but the shadiness of the whole thing is suspicious.

You are creating your own conspiracy theory, which has as much validity at this point as the journalist's. I doubt they would try to keep under wraps the fact that she was released, as it would become public news the moment she would set foot on Italian ground.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Trent 0]

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You are creating your own conspiracy theory, which...

Based on the evidence and actions available? I guess so, but to me... it just seems more likely. The Italians' actions made me ask questions, you answer them and see what you come up with.

The main difference, is that I can accept that the whole thing may have just been a huge fuckup from either or both sides. But given the information we know right now... their actions look more suspicious than those of the "evil American assasination squad." They seem to have convinced themselves that there is a conspiracy, I'm just asking questions and trying to answer them with what I know so far. I haven't decided what DID happen. They did. That's the difference between conspiracy and rational deduction.

Oh, hello again!

[Skyrad 0]

well, she was there and we were not. However, if the US did want her dead this does seem to be a very high profile and particularly stupid way of going about it. Sounds like a mongolian Cluster f**k to me.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mikkey 0]

Whitehouse says:

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Bartlett said: "As you know, in a situation where there is a live combat zone, particularly this road to the airport, has been a notorious area for car bombs, that people are making split-second decisions, and it is critically important that we get the facts before we make judgments."

It is amazing how many Americans here always jump to conclusions and always assume that their guys never make mistakes.... has been mentioned that somebody probably fucked up - and it might not be the italians.. lets see what the investigation shows.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[likearock 2]

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Whitehouse says:

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Bartlett said: "As you know, in a situation where there is a live combat zone, particularly this road to the airport, has been a notorious area for car bombs, that people are making split-second decisions, and it is critically important that we get the facts before we make judgments."

It is amazing how many Americans here always jump to conclusions and always assume that their guys never make mistakes.... has been mentioned that somebody probably fucked up - and it might not be the italians.. lets see what the investigation shows.

None of us are saying we're sure of what happened. But, as Trent points out, there is one glaring question that the Italians have yet to answer:

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If the Italians knew they were getting her out, what possible reason would there be not to alert the nearest US commanders so that they could be escorted or at least expected on a certain route?

Wayne

[mikkey 0]

But many are saying that "you know" the troops made no mistakes. Well we don't know that - do we?

Here is some of the latest comments from Ms Sgrena from BBC:

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Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has said she cannot accept US troops accidentally fired on her car after her kidnappers freed her in Baghdad.
Ms Sgrena told the BBC Americans guarding Baghdad airport might not have been informed about her arrival, but their actions could not be excused.

Ms Sgrena told BBC News she could not say "why they shot at us in this way".

"But it's a very big responsibility and we ask a response on what happened," she said.

"It can't be just said that it was just an accident. We can't accept this, it is not possible."

She said Italian officials knew her car was on the airport road and she assumed they had informed the Americans.

She could not say if she was deliberately shot at "because we can't say if there was misinformation, but also misinformation in this case is a responsibility because you are in a war field".

"You have to have the responsibility to pass immediately any information and the information was given to the Italians that we were on the road so I think that they have given the information to tell the Americans that we were on the road."

So lets see what transpires.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Trent 0]

Thanks for posting that. Her story is looking more and more like she's moving away from the conspiracy theories. Of particular interest are these 2 statements she made...

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Ms Sgrena told the BBC Americans guarding Baghdad airport might not have been informed about her arrival, but their actions could not be excused.

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She said Italian officials knew her car was on the airport road and she assumed they had informed the Americans.

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...the information was given to the Italians that we were on the road so I think that they have given the information to tell the Americans that we were on the road.

Assumed, thought, whatever... now it sounds like she's either going to blame the italians for not telling the Americans or the Americans for not passing the word to the soldiers at the checkpoint. I also notice that now the troops we guarding the Baghdad airport, not roaming around shooting anything they saw.

And if you're going to keep saying that we just want to think that the troops made no mistakes... you're right. I believe that we do the best we can and wouldn't intentionally do something like that. I believe that the reporter is hurt, scared, and sad that the man that helped her out is dead. I think she wants to blame someone for her ordeal and his death, as irrational as it is... she'd rather blame us than the terrorists. I want to believe that we are in the clear here, if it was a mistake it was a mistake... no matter which side it came from. I just deplore the tendency of european press to "blame America first"... just like some of our own people do.

Oh, hello again!

[Michele 1]

Frankly, it seems that the Italians didn't notify anyone that this rescue had occurred, and did not request clearance (if such is the correct term) to pass through the checkpoint.

I suspect it has far more to do with the $1,000,000 (+) ransom paid to rescue this journalist...as that is not something the US condones, and in fact encourages additional kidnapping activities, and puts significant monies into the pockets of these kidnappers (and to the group they are affiliated with).

I doubt that the US would've done anything to stop the payment/rescue, but it would bring some significant diplomatic issues to the table that the Italians may have wanted to avoid. And if I recall correctly, this is not the first time Italians were ransomed....which would be a clear indicator as to why she was nabbed in the first place.

Do I think this was a horrible tragedy? Of course. Could there have been mistakes? Of course. Do I think that there was something the Italians may have been hiding? Sure.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Frenchy68 0]

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Do I think that there was something the Italians may have been hiding? Sure.

You may be right. However, considering the US pretty much controls, I believe, the airport, I can't understand why the Italians would get her out through the airport if they wanted the Americans not to know. And realistically, it is impossible to keep the release of an hostage under wraps for much time. The Americans would have known anyway. I think we may looking too far into what is a failure in communication. At which level is what needs to be determined.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."