Interesting comments from Greenspan

[billvon 3,131]

Interesting comments from him today. Some highlights:

The tax code was simplified significantly in 1986; since then it's gotten more complex. The simpler tax code (per Greenspan) broadened the tax base and reduced tax rates overall. He proposes simplifying the current tax laws again, and also suggests beginning a transition to a consumption tax (a sales tax.) I think that's a good idea; a national sales tax could work well. I also like his idea for a gradual transition from income to sales taxes; it would allow any problems in the scheme to be dealt with before they become national disasters.

[wmw999 2,600]

I like the gradual transition, too. But the problem of penalizing people who have to spend more of their money is significant. On the other hand, it might just encourage people to save money, which Americans seem to be doing at an ever-decreasing rate.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,131]

>But the problem of penalizing people who have to spend more of
>their money is significant.

I don't think that's a big problem. Set a poverty line; those people below it do not get taxed on essentials (food, rent, medical.)

[Ron 10]

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I don't think that's a big problem. Set a poverty line; those people below it do not get taxed on essentials (food, rent, medical.)

How does Kash 'n' Karry know who is below the poverty line? ID cards?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,131]

>How does Kash 'n' Karry know who is below the poverty line? ID cards?

Tax statement stub along with a form of ID. Or a separately issued card. Or an electronic system where you just use your number and have a cash limit (clearly if you are spending more than you're making you're not under the poverty line any more.) Or scannable coupons for X dollars, a la green stamps/WIC. Take your pick. The coupon one would be easiest to track.

[cbain 0]

Instead of giving the government a way to track our every move and every purchase even easier why not this. Don't tax essentials like food and water. But tax more heavily things like 56" TV's that only "rich" people who can afford more taxes should be buying to begin with.

Christina

[billvon 3,131]

> Instead of giving the government a way to track our every move
>and every purchase even easier . . . .

How is using coupons different from using a credit card, or a Von's club card, or a driver's license as ID at liquor stores?

[jdhill 0]

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(clearly if you are spending more than you're making you're not under the poverty line any more.)

Some banks will give anyone a credit card...

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Ron 10]

How about anyone on Welfare (Below poverty) gets issued a Government debit card...These cards have two functions:

1. They are used to buy the things that are needed to survive (Food Stamps). And can only be used to buy these items.

2. Easy way to decide if tax is due.

It will prevent fraud.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,131]

> How about anyone on Welfare (Below poverty) gets issued a Government debit card...

Sure, that works. If they don't want to have a goverment ID associated with them, that's fine too - but then they don't get the tax break.

[Ron 10]

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> How about anyone on Welfare (Below poverty) gets issued a Government debit card...

Sure, that works. If they don't want to have a goverment ID associated with them, that's fine too - but then they don't get the tax break.

Well for once we agree.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AndyMan 7]

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I don't think that's a big problem. Set a poverty line; those people below it do not get taxed on essentials (food, rent, medical.)

In Canada, where a salestax has been inplace for close to 15 years now, basic staples like food have always been tax free for everyone. Housing, and medical, as well.

Of course, in some ways that gets complicated. If you buy a single donut, it's a snack and taxable. If you buy a dozen, it's groceries, and are not.

It works. Grumbling about high taxes aside, the gov't makes good revenue from it, and people are taxed on what they spend. Avoid taxes by saving more.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>How does Kash 'n' Karry know who is below the poverty line? ID cards?

Tax statement stub along with a form of ID. Or a separately issued card. Or an electronic system where you just use your number and have a cash limit (clearly if you are spending more than you're making you're not under the poverty line any more.) Or scannable coupons for X dollars, a la green stamps/WIC. Take your pick. The coupon one would be easiest to track.

I'd love it if they do this. I'll can have my corporation only pay me enough salary to qualify for all the govt. benefits and then invest all profits through the corporation. Sweeet!!!!!!!

[billvon 3,131]

> I'll can have my corporation only pay me enough salary to qualify
>for all the govt. benefits and then invest all profits through the
> corporation. Sweeet!!!!!!!

Sure! You can even do that now; put 90% of your salary in your 401k and pay no income tax. Of course that's illegal, and if they catch you doing that you go to jail, but people have been getting around tax laws for years. Some don't even get caught!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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> I'll can have my corporation only pay me enough salary to qualify
>for all the govt. benefits and then invest all profits through the
> corporation. Sweeet!!!!!!!

Sure! You can even do that now; put 90% of your salary in your 401k and pay no income tax. Of course that's illegal, and if they catch you doing that you go to jail, but people have been getting around tax laws for years. Some don't even get caught!

What you suggest would be pretty stupid and you would get caught very quickly. Why not just pay yourself $50,000 per year with expenses of $45,000. That qualifies you as poor and you get all the govt goodies for free. Invest all profits in taxed deferred annuities, cash in after retirement and draw it out at a lower tax rate. Heck I bet I could even get it down to less than that thru leases and loans, which avoid (legally)payroll taxes. It's really not difficult to appear to be poor, if the incentives are great enough.

[rmsmith 1]

A sales tax also taxes the people who steal, manufacture illegal drugs, or prostitute themselves.

[billvon 3,131]

>What you suggest would be pretty stupid and you would get
>caught very quickly.

Oh, I know a few people who have gotten away with very similar schemes.

>Why not just pay yourself $50,000 per year with expenses
>of $45,000.

Another scheme which might indeed work. Heck, pay yourself $1 a year, have your company pay all your bills and credit cards and put your bonuses in an offshore account. Would work great even with the tax scheme now. Wouldn't work as well in the sales-tax scheme, since you couldn't buy anything significant without paying tax on it, even if it was on the 'company card.'

Of course, in such a scheme, the _company_ is still paying taxes.

[flyclearjohn 0]

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>But the problem of penalizing people who have to spend more of
>their money is significant.

I don't think that's a big problem. Set a poverty line; those people below it do not get taxed on essentials (food, rent, medical.)

I suspect the bureaucracy for managing this would be prohibitive.

John

[storm1977 0]

One thing that could be done is to simply not tax essentials like food and clothes.

MA does this with its sales tax.
Some food and some clothes are taxed, if they are deemed luxury and not necessity.

Example: A fur coat would be taxed.... Actually in places like CT, there is no tax on clothes as long as the individual item is not greater than $50.
A $49 dollar shirt isn't taxed but a $55 is....
You could buy $3000 worth of clothes and not be taxed, or $200 in clothes and be taxed... It is all dependant on the individual items.

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

>What you suggest would be pretty stupid and you would get
>caught very quickly.

Oh, I know a few people who have gotten away with very similar schemes.

>Why not just pay yourself $50,000 per year with expenses
>of $45,000.

Another scheme which might indeed work. Heck, pay yourself $1 a year, have your company pay all your bills and credit cards and put your bonuses in an offshore account. Would work great even with the tax scheme now. Wouldn't work as well in the sales-tax scheme, since you couldn't buy anything significant without paying tax on it, even if it was on the 'company card.'

Of course, in such a scheme, the _company_ is still paying taxes.

I think you are missing the point. The point would be to pay yourself so little that you qualify for tax exempt status. I'm not suggesting I would do this, only pointing out an obvious flaw. Poor people should pay taxes too. It helps them participate in the system and makes them think twice about who they vote for.

[rehmwa 2]

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>Set a poverty line; those people below it do not get taxed on essentials (food, rent, medical.)

Nuts - I thought we were trying to simplify it.

Just exempt essentials for EVERYONE and tax the rest. Those who have more spend more anyway. How do you define poverty? What if someone makes $1 more than that arbirtrary number? etc etc etc

Trying to have different rules for different people is what make the tax codes so complex in the first place.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jumper03 0]

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a Von's club card

You got your own club?????

Scars remind us that the past is real