Concealed Carry Scenario...

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Thats why I like the idea of training before being allowed to carry."

I can accept that, what I can't really accept is the thought of 100 untrained airline passengers, toting firearms on regular flights.

Very few people are allowed to carry weapons on board flights, so the 911 comparison is a wee bit asinine, and basically non sequitur.

Back to training for firearm concealed carry, wouldn't that require registration, and some form of administration? Again I can cope with that. A whole lot of folk here don't like the idea of it though..

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Tonto 1]

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Army folks and policemen are forced to train every single day. That is fully OK. But a gun lover, just cleaning and caressing his weapons, is not the same.

You're quite correct. They're not the same.

The posibility does exist, however, that the lover of anything is more dedicated than those who are forced to train.

For most police and Military personel - it's simply a job. Does a prostitute make love to the same intensity as a lover?

We all know as skydivers that people react differently under extreme pressure, Some people's performance is poor, and some of those die as a result of those poor desisions. Others think very clearly and very fast, and make good, accurate desisions and good judgements with flawless execution of the task at hand.

The same is true of people in any highly charged situation. Generally, experience helps to weed out those less suited to the job, and again, generally, some gun lovers may never have been exposed to those experiences and so their performance remains an unknown.

I'm not saying that all "gun lovers" are all John Wayne - incapable of missing - but I do beleive that if you find yourself in a situation where you have both the tools and the skills to survive - to choose not to seems foolish.

I have no doubt that had I not shot back - I would have found myself in the same position as my attackers 1st victim. In fact, had I not shot back - they would have continued to shoot at him, as he was a monster of a man - and much scarier than I was, and he may well have lost his life rather than a lung, 60% of his liver and one kidney.

I understand your anti gun stance, and I respect your point of view. I no longer carry a gun as I'm not trained to the degree I was at that time. To say though, that any tool simply should not be in the toolbox is perhaps idealistic? Reserve parachutes can kill. On every climbout, deployment of a canopy we cannot release is an extreme risk to us as individuals, those around us and the aircraft and it's pilot. When viewed in the overall scheme of things, however, it is prudent to have a reserve, and keep it well packed, and well maintained, as well as the skills and judgement required for it's use if the need arises, although few of us wish this to occur.

Thank you for your time.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 10]

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Very few people are allowed to carry weapons on board flights, so the 911 comparison is a wee bit asinine, and basically non sequitur.

Follow along:

The 9/11 comparison is good. The comparison was about people just sitting around doing nothing, or taking action.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1511182#1511182


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And how would you feel if while trying to save one person's live, your actions resulted in the deaths of that person, and many others?

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That's the kind of thinking that kept airplane passengers from doing something to save themselves and thousands of others on Sept. 11, 2001.

On only one of the flights on 9/11 did they rise up and fight back.

THATS how 9/11 was brought into this.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"On only one of the flights on 9/11 did they rise up and fight back. "

Not many survived although point taken, it could have been worse.

Thousands of people have survived hijackings, this is the only recorded instance that I can think of where people 'had a go', everyone died.

So I'm trying to follow your rationale.......

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Some people's performance is poor, and some of those die as a result of those poor desisions. Others think very clearly and very fast, and make good, accurate desisions and good judgements with flawless execution of the task at hand."

Many people wrongly assess their own skills and abilities, the incidents forum is full of examples.

Hell, even professionals can make a questionable judgement call in situations like this.

I reckon you and a few of the other posters here have had formal training for the scenario described in the original posting, and as such could be considered 'qualified' to engage a perp in the scenario. I do wonder how many people who have said they would engage actually have formal training though.....and whether their assessment of their own ability to handle such a situation is accurate, and realistic.


Lets look at this scenario another way, you are the store keeper being held up, the gun is being pointed at you, do you want someone possibly jeopardising your survival chances because they reckon they could 'have a go'.....

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Tonto 1]

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Lets look at this scenario another way, you are the store keeper being held up, the gun is being pointed at you, do you want someone possibly jeopardising your survival chances because they reckon they could 'have a go'.....

Hi Nac,

I'm in the rare and very fortunate position of never having been a victim. Sure, I've started out as a potential one in a couple of situations - but I've managed to deal with EVERY situation quite well.

This does not make me superman. It makes me lucky. Nothing more.

I do struggle to identify with being the store keeper though. I've always been the roaming element, never the turkey tied to the golden post. My philosophy on life makes it easier to do things than not to do things - because in truth, the outcome doesn't matter. We're all just meat that thinks, wandering around and doing our thing. Some of us are Alpha meat - and some of us are Beta meat. If you're Beta meat and you put yourself in confromtation with Alpha meat - you better know your shit, because we're very, very fragile creatures, and we're easy to maim, disable, and dismantle. When I'm in a confrontation situation - I'm maintaining the status quo - while thinking of the quickest, safest, easiest way to kill the person confronting me, because I beleive that they're thinking the same way I am. If they're not - then they're in deep shit.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 10]

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My philosophy on life makes it easier to do things than not to do things - because in truth, the outcome doesn't matter. We're all just meat that thinks, wandering around and doing our thing. Some of us are Alpha meat - and some of us are Beta meat. If you're Beta meat and you put yourself in confromtation with Alpha meat - you better know your shit, because we're very, very fragile creatures, and we're easy to maim, disable, and dismantle. When I'm in a confrontation situation - I'm maintaining the status quo - while thinking of the quickest, safest, easiest way to kill the person confronting me, because I beleive that they're thinking the same way I am. If they're not - then they're in deep shit.

Well said.

I think we all know people who claim to know/be more than they are....I don't understand those people

I had a friend of mine, Ranger, SF, Delta.... I made the comment one day about how he likes violence.

His comment?

"I don't like violence, but it is my job and I am good at it. I have to be."

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"When I'm in a confrontation situation - I'm maintaining the status quo - while thinking of the quickest, safest, easiest way to kill the person confronting me, because I beleive that they're thinking the same way I am. If they're not - then they're in deep shit."

Substitute "easiest way to kill the person confronting me" with " easiest way to end the confrontation" and we are on the same page.

"I do struggle to identify with being the store keeper though."

I really can't visualise you being the store keeper either, I just don't think its in your make up(I mean that in the best possible way).
Point being, I do not have the skills to intervene in a situation like this, that is a plain and simple fact. No matter how well intentioned my actions might be, I would probably jeopardise the stability of the situation.

I wonder how many other people who do regularly take their weapons shopping with them are in the same boat.

No offense meant to those of you who are current, suitably experienced, and capable of producing a satisfactory outcome to this type of situation.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Kennedy 0]

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Back to training for firearm concealed carry, wouldn't that require registration, and some form of administration? Again I can cope with that. A whole lot of folk here don't like the idea of it though..

What people here in the US vehemently do not want is registration of all guns, by the feds or state government. Registration for registration's sake is fought tooth and nail.

However, at the moment people are willing to register their name, and maybe a particular handgun, in order to carry legally outside their home. It is seen as a trade off for the benefit of concealed carry.

I'm willing to give my name and time to the local sheriff. I'm not willing to tell Diane Feinstein what guns I have (and where, why, etc).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 10]

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Back to training for firearm concealed carry, wouldn't that require registration, and some form of administration? Again I can cope with that. A whole lot of folk here don't like the idea of it though..

I am 100% FOR requiring training to carry. Right now I think the rules are even a little slack.

I am OK with requiring a registration to carry....

I am NOT OK with listing what type or serial number of the weapon I will carry and I WILL NOT give anyone a "list" of the weapons I have.

As long as I am not carrying them...Its no ones business what or how many I have.

I have no problem being tested, and being certified to carry. But I DON'T want my weapons listed so they can come get them later.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[AggieDave 6]

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I reckon you and a few of the other posters here have had formal training for the scenario described in the original posting, and as such could be considered 'qualified' to engage a perp in the scenario

Dave,

You've seen me post about the level of training I've gone out of my way to achieve, right? You know that I've been through tactical pistol training, that I do scenerio shooting with an IDPA club and such.

You saw my answer. I don't want anything to do with it unless absolutely no other choice exsists.

Hell, lets say its a 100% clean shoot, the happy hero story, it'll still cost on average $50,000 in court costs due to the family of the perp trying to sue and such. FUCK THAT! Beyond that I stated previously about the how much bad can come from trying to engage that situation.

Like I said. I'm not a cop, I'm not here to protect your ass, I'm here to protect my ass (and my family).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dropoutdave 0]

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I am 100% FOR requiring training to carry. Right now I think the rules are even a little slack.

How would you feel about training to just own the gun? Would it make any difference do you feel? Haven't thought this out, just a brain fart.
I mean, you have to be trained before you can drive a car etc.

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[Kennedy 0]

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How would you feel about training to just own the gun? Would it make any difference do you feel? Haven't thought this out, just a brain fart.
I mean, you have to be trained before you can drive a car etc.

This argument's been played out to the point of agreeing to disagree or personal attacks.

You don't need a license to own a car
You don't need a license to own a gun
You need a license to drive a car outside your private property.
You need a license to carry a gun outside your private property.

However, your driver's license is good in all fifty states. CHLs aren't.
Also, no one is trying to confiscate all cars froma ll private citizens.

You don't need a license to own a pool or bathtub, but there are far more accidental drownings than accidental gun deaths.

(and it all goes on from there)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[dropoutdave 0]

I'll give that one a miss then!

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May Contain Nut traces......

[kmcguffee 0]

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Odds are (and yes, armed robbery statistics will back this up) that he will take the money and go without hurting anyone

These statistics should not enter into any decision like this. The person on the scene has to make the decision based on all of the facts he/she knows at the time on whether the robber will use the weapon and whether shooting at the perp will risk hitting innocents. Statistics are nice for determining a particular trend but are useless for determining how a specific situation is going to turn out. You are never going to "know" for sure unless you allow the perp to shoot before you respond. By then, you are too late.

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Wait and see if he makes a threatening move?

He has pulled a handgun and is robbing a store. What other threatening move does he need to make? He will be able to shoot the teller before you would be able to react if you wait for another "threatening move."

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Let him leave because the cash register take at a drugstore isn't worth killing him over?...

Good option if you think for sure that the guy is not going to shoot. For a police officer, you can then confront and arrest him outside where there are not as many citizens.

Flip side is, what if you are standing there with a concealed weapon, trained to use it, decide not to risk it, and the perp kills the 18 year old teller and gets away. How do you live with yourself then?

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When does it become worth the feeling that you will have from pulling the trigger and putting someone (no matter how much of a scumbag) in the grave?

I've met lots of guys who have shot and/or killed bad guys. I've not met one who seemed to "enjoy" the feeling (except for psycho/sociopaths 0. They feel a sense of accomplishment for having survived or saved others but not for taking someone's life.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

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That bad guy is doing an unexpected movement, a sidestep. Behind him, there is a little 8 yrs/o school girl, frozen in fear, unable to move...

But, as you are JohnWayne, you pull the trigger, that's for sure. Later it might be easy for you to say: I did my very best to safe a life. I killed another one but, could I expect that little girl to be there? No. I am innocent like a virgin.

So, due to the risk of a bad outcome, with the risk completely unknown at the time, you would refuse to take any action? Even an action that may result in saving lives? Do you use this logic in everything you do in life? Do you only help people when there is absolutely no chance of a bad outcome? That just amazes me.

What if you do nothing, let the perp go, and he kills five 8 year old girls on his way home. But, as you are Ghandi, it might be easy for you to say: I didn't want to take a chance for the greater good, I allowed him to walk away, their blood isn't on my hands, that was someone elses job to do.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[christelsabine 1]

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That bad guy is doing an unexpected movement, a sidestep. Behind him, there is a little 8 yrs/o school girl, frozen in fear, unable to move...

But, as you are JohnWayne, you pull the trigger, that's for sure. Later it might be easy for you to say: I did my very best to safe a life. I killed another one but, could I expect that little girl to be there? No. I am innocent like a virgin.

So, due to the risk of a bad outcome, with the risk completely unknown at the time, you would refuse to take any action? Even an action that may result in saving lives? Do you use this logic in everything you do in life? Do you only help people when there is absolutely no chance of a bad outcome? That just amazes me.

What if you do nothing, let the perp go, and he kills five 8 year old girls on his way home. But, as you are Ghandi, it might be easy for you to say: I didn't want to take a chance for the greater good, I allowed him to walk away, their blood isn't on my hands, that was someone elses job to do.

In few words: For what I learned during months of training to handle my hunting weapons, there was one thing always on top (that refers to animals I intend to shoot, so surely could be applied at human beeing, too, right?):

At so many "completely unknown", imponderable circumstances, no one knows what might be next step, what might be within the critical "range/area", I would never ever pull out a hand/gun and shoot. As per what Kennedy explained in his post (don't remember exactly which one): Always watch the area behind your aimed point (my own words now). Must not be "behind", could easely be just beside, mm's could change all in such a situation.

If I do not know exactly where to aim to, I do not pull the trigger and keep finger straight. The bullet is like a spoken word: Once it's gone, you can never call it back.

But, as I never walk around armed in the streets, what do I know about this?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kmcguffee 0]

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Always watch the area behind your aimed point (my own words now).

If you know or have reason to suspect an innocent is behind your aim point then don't shoot. But that was not what you said in your original post. You said "could I expect that little girl to be there? No." So, in your situation you had no reason to believe their was someone behind your point of aim.

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I would never ever pull out a hand/gun and shoot.

Based on this statement, you have made the right decision. Don't ever carry one if you don't have the will to use it. It's a lot easier to not get involved and claim that something may have went wrong if you would have done anything. It's not your fault and not your business if the perp wants to kill someone else. Right?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[christelsabine 1]

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Always watch the area behind your aimed point (my own words now).

If you know or have reason to suspect an innocent is behind your aim point then don't shoot. But that was not what you said in your original post. You said "could I expect that little girl to be there? No." So, in your situation you had no reason to believe their was someone behind your point of aim.

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I would never ever pull out a hand/gun and shoot.

Based on this statement, you have made the right decision. Don't ever carry one if you don't have the will to use it. It's a lot easier to not get involved and claim that something may have went wrong if you would have done anything. It's not your fault and not your business if the perp wants to kill someone else. Right?

I do understand what you want to say. Especially with your very last words.

Pls, do not forget, most people over here have no use of carrying any weapon with them. So, just in case it's an emergency situation (or whatever you would like to call it): We are not trained for that. We do not carry weapons with us. We never needed.

Just BTW: There was an American movie called "Blue Steel". You remember that, perhaps? It was thrilling, it like it very much. Scary, how that guy is changing his personality once he has a gun in his hands...

It's not a question of cowardice. No one should ever dare to attack anyone of my family. I'll be a killer within seconds.

Christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kmcguffee 0]

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Pls, do not forget, most people over here have no use of carrying any weapon with them.

I'm not so sure about that.

From here http://ron.dotson.net/guns/Britain.htm

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Britain has the highest level of homicides in western Europe and the totals for robberies and thefts of motor vehicles have also been close to the highest in the European Union, outstripped only by France, the Home Office figures show.

Only Germany, which has 20 million more people, recorded more crimes overall in 2001, the most up-to-date figure in the research - International Comparisons of Criminal Justice Statistics 2001, with data collected by the Home Office and the Council of Europe.

But the "victimisation risk" - showing the risk of suffering a crime - in England and Wales is higher for overall crime than anywhere else in Europe, and higher than in America. The same is true of falling victim to "contact" - violent - crime.

The belief that Europe is non-violent and of higher breeding than other parts of the world is rather prevalent in Europe. It just doesn't seem to be fact. In talking to European police agencies they seem very unwilling to air their dirty laundry. It must be something in the culture. The Eastern European countries are much more direct and helpful.

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Just BTW: There was an American movie called "Blue Steel". You remember that, perhaps? It was thrilling, it like it very much. Scary, how that guy is changing his personality once he has a gun in his hands...

Remember, that was a movie. It was not reality. A gun doesn't change a person, a bullet does not immediately kill a person, a bullet does not make a person fly back when hit, shooting a pistol with one hand is extremely inaccurate even by professionals, guns do not have unlimited ammo, holding a gun with your finger on the trigger is a bad idea unless you are ready to shoot, one person shooting two pistols at the same time looks cool but is highly ineffetive, pistol shots over 25 yds are extremely hard especially when running, jumping, and rolling, most explosions do not make a fire ball, etc.

Be careful about judging real life by Hollywood's standards.

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It's not a question of cowardice. No one should ever dare to attack anyone of my family. I'll be a killer within seconds.

It isn't a matter of cowardice or bravery. It's a matter of doing what needs to be done to protect innocent members of your society. IOW, doing what is right.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Jimbo 0]

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We do not carry weapons with us. We never needed.

I disagree with this statement.

How many people in Germany were victims of violent crime last year? You claim that you (as a people) 'never needed'; I claim that there are those who did, but because of the prevailing attitude over there were never given the chance.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Ron 10]

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How would you feel about training to just own the gun?

I don't like the idea. You don't need a license to buy a car, and like Kennedy said there are not a few nut jobs trying to confiscate all the cars in the US.

What I would LOVE to see is a gun saftey course taught in Elementary school, JR high and High school....Of course that will not happen.

People always seem to be for education not regulation until it is about something they don't like...Such as guns.

If guns are such a problem, why not teach about them?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

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Ron, you are talking BS. Normal passengers do not expect to be in such a strange situation.

Baaaaaaaa, Baaaaaaaa Euro Sheep, have you any wool.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Thousands of people have survived hijackings, this is the only recorded instance that I can think of where people 'had a go', everyone died.

As evidenced by the results these were not "normal" hijackings, and it has been proven that the passengers on the flights clued in on that pretty quick.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Jimbo 0]

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Army folks and policemen are forced to train every single day.

Where did you get that idea? Can you back it up?

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Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.