markd_nscr986 0 #26 March 3, 2005 Thanks Christel, I almost forgot how refreshing the bleating of "Euro-sheep" could beMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #27 March 3, 2005 Quote This bad guy could have killed the cashier, and that cashiers baby could have been the person that would one day have become President and ended hunger, world peace, and made Pizza not fattening Thats the problem with hypotheticals.....And the problem with choices in the real world...You don't know and can't guess. Here is a quote from an earlier post of mine: Quote Let him leave, get the license plate on the car, give it to the police, let them do their job. The gun is a last resort. It is the job of the police to get the suspect, not anyone elses. If he started shooting it would be a different story. I was referring to hypothetical situations where gunfire had not yet occured. That probably wasn't very clear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #28 March 3, 2005 QuoteThanks Christel, I almost forgot how refreshing the bleating of "Euro-sheep" could be ZING!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #29 March 3, 2005 QuoteThanks Christel, I almost forgot how refreshing the bleating of "Euro-sheep" could be If you miss the noise of bleating sheep, go to Bonfire... "Euro"-sheep is no race. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #30 March 3, 2005 QuoteJust imagine for one second, even you're best shooter in the world: That bad guy is doing an unexpected movement, a sidestep. Behind him, there is a little 8 yrs/o school girl, frozen in fear, unable to move... That is why the fourth rule of gun safety is "Know your target, and what lies beyond." You don't shoot when there is something you don't want to destroy behind your target. Just like when you go hunting you don't shoot without checking the background, all shooters must do that, even for self defense. QuoteBut, as you are JohnWayne, you pull the trigger, that's for sure. Later it might be easy for you to say: I did my very best to safe a life. I killed another one but, could I expect that little girl to be there? No. I am innocent like a virgin. Walking away. Law would be at your side? I doubt that. No, every person is responsible for every round they fire. Even police. If you shoot, miss your target, and hit a person, you are responsible. If someone shot the way you described (as I know John wouldn't), they would be guilty of involutary manslaughter (a much smaller murder charge), criminal negligence, and would have to face civil suits for wrongful death. edit to add: THe first three rules are: 1. Every gun is loaded. 2. Never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until ready to fire.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #31 March 3, 2005 According to Christel, apparently even piece of shit murderers are worth keeping alive. I think they need to stop taking up resources, i.e. food, oxygen, money, etc. Some people are juet vermin. You need to eliminate vermin every now & then... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #32 March 3, 2005 A few questions... What is the range? What does the background look like (are there 'good guys' around or behind the target) How is the target presented (angles, stationary, moving, etc)? JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #33 March 3, 2005 QuoteAccording to Christel, apparently even piece of shit murderers are worth keeping alive. Well, I don't want to be the one to end their life, but I don't mind throwing them into a cell for most of their worthless existance. QuoteSome people are just vermin. Sadly this is true. QuoteYou need to eliminate vermin every now & then... I'll leave that up to more people than just me (unless some vermin becomes an immediate threat).witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #34 March 3, 2005 QuoteI was referring to hypothetical situations where gunfire had not yet occured. That probably wasn't very clear I agree 100% If you are armed you owe it to everyone to make sure nothing happens...If that means doing nothing, then do nothing. But if given the choice of doing nothing while someone innocent dies...I think we both agree that you should not sit and watch that."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #35 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteBy looking at each situation, and the possible outcomes, I could determine that my actions are more likely to make the situation worse for everyone involved. So in your mind are there no situations where having and using a gun make things better? I never said there were none, just that until the robber has started shooting (IF he ever does), there are more situations where drawing the gun would make things worse than better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #36 March 3, 2005 Quotethere are more situations where drawing the gun would make things worse than better. Ask Dave about that...He might disagree."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #37 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteBy looking at each situation, and the possible outcomes, I could determine that my actions are more likely to make the situation worse for everyone involved. So in your mind are there no situations where having and using a gun make things better? There is no general answer on that. OK. I accept you trust in JohnWaynes ability never to fail when shooting. I don't. For what I know, even few mm in aiming make a big difference in hitting the target. If you think, JohnWayne/JohnRich is capable to control his weapons even under biggest stress, I will accept that. But I do not trust in that. Army folks and policemen are forced to train every single day. That is fully OK. But a gun lover, just cleaning and caressing his weapons, is not the same. I would not like to be close to "him", the gun lover. Whoever it might be. You are polite like usual. I enjoy that. But I still have my own opinion on that. The normal citizen is not a JohnWayne, not familiar with an emergency situation, to pull out his gun. I would not like to meet one. Who's more dangerous? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #38 March 3, 2005 QuoteIf you think, JohnWayne/JohnRich is capable to control his weapons even under biggest stress, I will accept that. But I do not trust in that. Army folks and policemen are forced to train every single day. That is fully OK. But a gun lover, just cleaning and caressing his weapons, is not the same. John Rich was a Marine....If memory serves correctly, he has been in combat. QuoteThe normal citizen is not a JohnWayne, not familiar with an emergency situation, to pull out his gun. I would not like to meet one. Thats why I like the idea of training before being allowed to carry."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #39 March 3, 2005 QuoteAnd how would you feel if while trying to save one person's live, your actions resulted in the deaths of that person, and many others? That's the kind of thinking that kept airplane passengers from doing something to save themselves and thousands of others on Sept. 11, 2001. How do you know that the attacker doesn't intend to shoot many others anyway, even if you do nothing? Oh well, at least you'll sleep well at night, sure in your knowledge that you had plenty of excuses not to help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #40 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuote Is there a point to the hypotheticals? Yes. By looking at each situation, and the possible outcomes, I could determine that my actions are more likely to make the situation worse for everyone involved. No. What you see happening here is everyone is inventing their own fanciful scenarios which support their own view of what should be done. It's called a "strawman" argument, where you build something false up of your own device, and then use it to criticize your opponent. It's an invalid debate technique. There are thousands of different scenarios and possibilities. No one knows what is best or what they'll do until they're actually there, in the thick of it. The only thing that I know, is that I'm the type of personality that if I have the power to stop someone from being harmed, I'll step in and do it, even at my own risk. I've done it before, and I'll do it again. If that makes me a monster to the do-nothing crowd, so be it - I'll wear the badge proudly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #41 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd how would you feel if while trying to save one person's live, your actions resulted in the deaths of that person, and many others? That's the kind of thinking that kept airplane passengers from doing something to save themselves and thousands of others on Sept. 11, 2001. How do you know that the attacker doesn't intend to shoot many others anyway, even if you do nothing? Oh well, at least you'll sleep well at night, sure in your knowledge that you had plenty of excuses not to help. You are a shame to your own country. JohnRich. How the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? BS. That's what you talk. Crap. Posts like yours make believe the world around the US it's better to stay out. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #42 March 3, 2005 Quote That's the kind of thinking that kept airplane passengers from doing something to save themselves and thousands of others on Sept. 11, 2001. We're not talking about hijackers on a jet here in this situation. By no means am I saything that action shouldn't be taken. I am saying that if I was in the situation described in the thread (you should actually read it),what the actions I would take are, given then chance to think them through. Quote How do you know that the attacker doesn't intend to shoot many others anyway, even if you do nothing? I don't know his intent. But we are discussing an armed robbery, not some guy coming in a randomly killing people. I do know that If I fire and miss, I will likely provoke return fire that could kill other innocent people. Given my lack of currency firing a handgun, it is more likely that my use of a gun would make the situation worse. If you will actually read what I posted at least 3 times, the actions I stated were based on a situation on which the armed robber had not fired the weapon Quote Oh well, at least you'll sleep well at night, sure in your knowledge that you had plenty of excuses not to help. How would you feel if you fired upon the armed robber, untentionally killed an innocent person standing nearby, then the police find out the gun was fake? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #43 March 3, 2005 QuoteYou are a shame to your own country. JohnRich No, he is not. QuoteHow the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? They could have rushed the cabin..If all of the Passengers had done that the towers might not have fallen. If the Terrorists knew that folks would not just have sat there they would have had to bring more than a few box cutters. The people on Flight 93 were heros that while they may have died...no one else had to. Quote Crew Lorraine G. Bay Sandra W. Bradshaw Jason Dahl Wanda Anita Green Leroy Homer CeeCee Lyles Deborah Welsh Passengers Christian Adams Todd Beamer Alan Beaven Mark K. Bingham Deora Frances Bodley Marion Britton Thomas E. Burnett Jr. William Cashman Georgine Rose Corrigan Patricia Cushing Joseph Deluca Patrick Joseph Driscoll Edward P. Felt Jane C. Folger Colleen Laura Fraser Andrew Garcia Jeremy Glick Lauren Grandcolas Donald F. Greene Linda Gronlund Richard Guadagno Toshiya Kuge Hilda Marcin Nicole Miller Louis J. Nacke Donald Arthur Peterson Jean Hoadley Peterson Waleska Martinez Rivera Mark Rothenberg Christine Snyder John Talignani Honor Elizabeth Wainio Olga Kristin Gould White "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #44 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou are a shame to your own country. JohnRich No, he is not. QuoteHow the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? Ron, you are talking BS. Normal passengers do not expect to be in such a strange situation. And you (including JohnWaye) are not the ones to judge about this. Passengers including crew were killed. What do you want to say about this, Ron? One single hero (someone like Arnie f.e?) could have save their lifes? These were normals like you and me. In deepest fear. Of course, you would have handled it diffently. You're Arnie's little bro. But still talking BS. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #45 March 3, 2005 QuoteThey could have rushed the cabin..If all of the Passengers had done that the towers might not have fallen. The first flights didn't have the benefit of knowing what was to come. They had every reason to believe this was a typical hijacking, and rushing the cabin would be more likely to lead to unncessary death. The last flight did know, thanks to use of cellular. In our holdup situation, circumstances probably dictate it would be best to not take action. Everyone (ignording the scumbag) is likely to have best survival odds if the guy is allowed to leave with the money. But even if that was the best choice, you'd still regret not taking action if the cashier was ultimately killed, something that is more likely in a 3 strikes state. Because of the incomplete info, it's a no win scenario that hopefully few will ever have to face. The legal answer is easy - do nothing. But you don't know if that's the best answer until after it's over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #46 March 3, 2005 ***BS. That's what you talk. Crap. Hey Christel, If the shoe fits................ QuoteHow the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? Uhhh,I'll guess I'll HAVE to state the obvious......by not standing by and letting a bunch of fanatics with box cutters commandeer them?Kind of like the folks on Flt 93?Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #47 March 3, 2005 QuoteRon, you are talking BS. Normal passengers do not expect to be in such a strange situation. Did you read the report? QuoteAmerican 11 Sweeney calmly reported on her line that the plane had been hijacked; a man in first class had his throat slashed; two flight attendants had been stabbed-one was seriously hurt and was on oxygen while the other's wounds seemed minor; a doctor had been requested; the flight attendants were unable to contact the cockpit; and there was a bomb in the cockpit. Sweeney told Woodward that she and Ong were trying to relay as much information as they could to people on the ground.... At 8:44, Gonzalez reported losing phone contact with Ong. About this same time Sweeney reported to Woodward," Something is wrong. We are in a rapid descent . . . we are all over the place." Woodward asked Sweeney to look out the window to see if she could determine where they were. Sweeney responded: "We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low." Seconds later she said, "Oh my God we are way too low." The phone call ended.38 Quote United 175 The hijackers attacked sometime between 8:42 and 8:46.They used knives (as reported by two passengers and a flight attendant), Mace (reported by one passenger), and the threat of a bomb (reported by the same passenger). They stabbed members of the flight crew (reported by a flight attendant and one passenger). Both pilots had been killed Now I am not smart, or John Wane...But if they kill the pilots...and others...They will kill more and are up to no good. QuoteAt 8:59, Flight 175 passenger Brian David Sweeney tried to call his wife, Julie. He left a message on their home answering machine that the plane had been hijacked. He then called his mother, Louise Sweeney, told her the flight had been hijacked, and added that the passengers were thinking about storming the cockpit to take control of the plane away from the hijackers.48 At 9:00, Lee Hanson received a second call from his son Peter: It's getting bad, Dad-A stewardess was stabbed-They seem to have knives and Mace-They said they have a bomb-It's getting very bad on the plane-Passengers are throwing up and getting sick-The plane is making jerky movements-I don't think the pilot is flying the plane-I think we are going down-I think they intend to go to Chicago or someplace and fly into a building-Don't worry, Dad- If it happens, it'll be very fast-My God, my God.49 Seems like they knew before all hell broke loose. QuoteUnited 93 Five seconds later, Jarrah asked, "Is that it? Shall we finish it off?" A hijacker responded, "No. Not yet. When they all come, we finish it off." The sounds of fighting continued outside the cockpit. Again, Jarrah pitched the nose of the aircraft up and down. At 10:00:26, a passenger in the background said, "In the cockpit. If we don't we'll die!" Sixteen seconds later, a passenger yelled, "Roll it!" Jarrah stopped the violent maneuvers at about 10:01:00 and said, "Allah is the greatest! Allah is the greatest!" He then asked another hijacker in the cock-pit, "Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?" to which the other replied, "Yes, put it in it, and pull it down."88 The passengers continued their assault and at 10:02:23, a hijacker said, "Pull it down! Pull it down!" The hijackers remained at the controls but must have judged that the passengers were only seconds from overcoming them. The airplane headed down; the control wheel was turned hard to the right. The airplane rolled onto its back, and one of the hijackers began shouting "Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest." With the sounds of the passenger counterattack continuing, the aircraft plowed into an empty field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, at 580 miles per hour, about 20 minutes' flying time from Washington, D.C.89 Jarrah's objective was to crash his airliner into symbols of the American Republic, the Capitol or the White House. He was defeated by the alerted, unarmed passengers of United 93. QuoteWhat do you want to say about this, Ron? One single hero (someone like Arnie f.e?) could have save their lifes? These were normals like you and me. In deepest fear. Read this part again: QuoteHe was defeated by the alerted, unarmed passengers of United 93. Do your homework next time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #48 March 3, 2005 QuoteThe first flights didn't have the benefit of knowing what was to come No, but they saw the terrorist killing people. Even one flight saw the pilots killed. Read the report? The good parts on another post of mine...They all had a clue, but they didn't do anything. QuoteThey had every reason to believe this was a typical hijacking, and rushing the cabin would be more likely to lead to unncessary death. You don't tend to kill the pilots in a nomal hijacking... QuoteThe last flight did know, thanks to use of cellular. People on all the flight had a clue..Only the last flight *knew*. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #49 March 4, 2005 QuoteYou are a shame to your own country. JohnRich. How the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? BS. That's what you talk. Crap. Posts like yours make believe the world around the US it's better to stay out. First of all, you demonstrate your illogic by transferring your dislike for my personal point of view, to a reason to dislike the entire United States. And please note the private message I sent you by dropzone.com e-mail. I'm afraid it is too unkind to post here. All I said was, that if I had the power to help someone in dire need, that I would. "Having the power" means the circumstances are appropriate, and the ability is present. I fail to understand how that can be so revolting. I think that the world would be a much better place if everyone adopted my philosophy here. To those who have the power and means to help someone in dire need, yet stand by and do nothing - you need a reality check on your humanity, and your courage. There's a famous quote that applies here; "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." You, Christelsabine, advocate doing nothing... . . . And with that, I'm off for a three-day weekend of hiking and camping in the desert, and visiting old Indian caves with pictographs painted on the rock walls. Attached are a few photos from my previous trip two weekends ago. 1) Jimenez Spring, Devil's River area - beautiful & with wild turkey! 2) A dry creekbed in the Devil's River area - difficult hiking. 3) Seminole Canyon, Mexico border, Indian cave in background. 4) Cave pictograph. Whatzit? Your guess is as good as mine! 5) Another pictograph with human figures. You have three days to bash me without any response on my part. You better take advantage of it while it lasts... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Travman 6 #50 March 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn Australia you are only legally allowed to defend yourself, or your spouse You mean it's a crime to defend your children, your friends, or complete strangers in desperate trouble? Thats right, protecting yourself and your spouse is self defence. You are allowed to use the minimum required force necesscary to subdue or arrest the attcker. Minimum required force is determined by the situation, the acceptable level of force is different if you are being attacked by a 50kg girl compared with a 110kg football player. Protecting anyone else is not as clear-cut and decided in a court. This is how it was explained to me by a member of the Australian Federal Police force. 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kelpdiver 2 #45 March 3, 2005 QuoteThey could have rushed the cabin..If all of the Passengers had done that the towers might not have fallen. The first flights didn't have the benefit of knowing what was to come. They had every reason to believe this was a typical hijacking, and rushing the cabin would be more likely to lead to unncessary death. The last flight did know, thanks to use of cellular. In our holdup situation, circumstances probably dictate it would be best to not take action. Everyone (ignording the scumbag) is likely to have best survival odds if the guy is allowed to leave with the money. But even if that was the best choice, you'd still regret not taking action if the cashier was ultimately killed, something that is more likely in a 3 strikes state. Because of the incomplete info, it's a no win scenario that hopefully few will ever have to face. The legal answer is easy - do nothing. But you don't know if that's the best answer until after it's over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #46 March 3, 2005 ***BS. That's what you talk. Crap. Hey Christel, If the shoe fits................ QuoteHow the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? Uhhh,I'll guess I'll HAVE to state the obvious......by not standing by and letting a bunch of fanatics with box cutters commandeer them?Kind of like the folks on Flt 93?Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #47 March 3, 2005 QuoteRon, you are talking BS. Normal passengers do not expect to be in such a strange situation. Did you read the report? QuoteAmerican 11 Sweeney calmly reported on her line that the plane had been hijacked; a man in first class had his throat slashed; two flight attendants had been stabbed-one was seriously hurt and was on oxygen while the other's wounds seemed minor; a doctor had been requested; the flight attendants were unable to contact the cockpit; and there was a bomb in the cockpit. Sweeney told Woodward that she and Ong were trying to relay as much information as they could to people on the ground.... At 8:44, Gonzalez reported losing phone contact with Ong. About this same time Sweeney reported to Woodward," Something is wrong. We are in a rapid descent . . . we are all over the place." Woodward asked Sweeney to look out the window to see if she could determine where they were. Sweeney responded: "We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low." Seconds later she said, "Oh my God we are way too low." The phone call ended.38 Quote United 175 The hijackers attacked sometime between 8:42 and 8:46.They used knives (as reported by two passengers and a flight attendant), Mace (reported by one passenger), and the threat of a bomb (reported by the same passenger). They stabbed members of the flight crew (reported by a flight attendant and one passenger). Both pilots had been killed Now I am not smart, or John Wane...But if they kill the pilots...and others...They will kill more and are up to no good. QuoteAt 8:59, Flight 175 passenger Brian David Sweeney tried to call his wife, Julie. He left a message on their home answering machine that the plane had been hijacked. He then called his mother, Louise Sweeney, told her the flight had been hijacked, and added that the passengers were thinking about storming the cockpit to take control of the plane away from the hijackers.48 At 9:00, Lee Hanson received a second call from his son Peter: It's getting bad, Dad-A stewardess was stabbed-They seem to have knives and Mace-They said they have a bomb-It's getting very bad on the plane-Passengers are throwing up and getting sick-The plane is making jerky movements-I don't think the pilot is flying the plane-I think we are going down-I think they intend to go to Chicago or someplace and fly into a building-Don't worry, Dad- If it happens, it'll be very fast-My God, my God.49 Seems like they knew before all hell broke loose. QuoteUnited 93 Five seconds later, Jarrah asked, "Is that it? Shall we finish it off?" A hijacker responded, "No. Not yet. When they all come, we finish it off." The sounds of fighting continued outside the cockpit. Again, Jarrah pitched the nose of the aircraft up and down. At 10:00:26, a passenger in the background said, "In the cockpit. If we don't we'll die!" Sixteen seconds later, a passenger yelled, "Roll it!" Jarrah stopped the violent maneuvers at about 10:01:00 and said, "Allah is the greatest! Allah is the greatest!" He then asked another hijacker in the cock-pit, "Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?" to which the other replied, "Yes, put it in it, and pull it down."88 The passengers continued their assault and at 10:02:23, a hijacker said, "Pull it down! Pull it down!" The hijackers remained at the controls but must have judged that the passengers were only seconds from overcoming them. The airplane headed down; the control wheel was turned hard to the right. The airplane rolled onto its back, and one of the hijackers began shouting "Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest." With the sounds of the passenger counterattack continuing, the aircraft plowed into an empty field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, at 580 miles per hour, about 20 minutes' flying time from Washington, D.C.89 Jarrah's objective was to crash his airliner into symbols of the American Republic, the Capitol or the White House. He was defeated by the alerted, unarmed passengers of United 93. QuoteWhat do you want to say about this, Ron? One single hero (someone like Arnie f.e?) could have save their lifes? These were normals like you and me. In deepest fear. Read this part again: QuoteHe was defeated by the alerted, unarmed passengers of United 93. Do your homework next time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #48 March 3, 2005 QuoteThe first flights didn't have the benefit of knowing what was to come No, but they saw the terrorist killing people. Even one flight saw the pilots killed. Read the report? The good parts on another post of mine...They all had a clue, but they didn't do anything. QuoteThey had every reason to believe this was a typical hijacking, and rushing the cabin would be more likely to lead to unncessary death. You don't tend to kill the pilots in a nomal hijacking... QuoteThe last flight did know, thanks to use of cellular. People on all the flight had a clue..Only the last flight *knew*. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #49 March 4, 2005 QuoteYou are a shame to your own country. JohnRich. How the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? BS. That's what you talk. Crap. Posts like yours make believe the world around the US it's better to stay out. First of all, you demonstrate your illogic by transferring your dislike for my personal point of view, to a reason to dislike the entire United States. And please note the private message I sent you by dropzone.com e-mail. I'm afraid it is too unkind to post here. All I said was, that if I had the power to help someone in dire need, that I would. "Having the power" means the circumstances are appropriate, and the ability is present. I fail to understand how that can be so revolting. I think that the world would be a much better place if everyone adopted my philosophy here. To those who have the power and means to help someone in dire need, yet stand by and do nothing - you need a reality check on your humanity, and your courage. There's a famous quote that applies here; "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." You, Christelsabine, advocate doing nothing... . . . And with that, I'm off for a three-day weekend of hiking and camping in the desert, and visiting old Indian caves with pictographs painted on the rock walls. Attached are a few photos from my previous trip two weekends ago. 1) Jimenez Spring, Devil's River area - beautiful & with wild turkey! 2) A dry creekbed in the Devil's River area - difficult hiking. 3) Seminole Canyon, Mexico border, Indian cave in background. 4) Cave pictograph. Whatzit? Your guess is as good as mine! 5) Another pictograph with human figures. You have three days to bash me without any response on my part. You better take advantage of it while it lasts... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Travman 6 #50 March 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn Australia you are only legally allowed to defend yourself, or your spouse You mean it's a crime to defend your children, your friends, or complete strangers in desperate trouble? Thats right, protecting yourself and your spouse is self defence. You are allowed to use the minimum required force necesscary to subdue or arrest the attcker. Minimum required force is determined by the situation, the acceptable level of force is different if you are being attacked by a 50kg girl compared with a 110kg football player. Protecting anyone else is not as clear-cut and decided in a court. This is how it was explained to me by a member of the Australian Federal Police force. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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Ron 10 #47 March 3, 2005 QuoteRon, you are talking BS. Normal passengers do not expect to be in such a strange situation. Did you read the report? QuoteAmerican 11 Sweeney calmly reported on her line that the plane had been hijacked; a man in first class had his throat slashed; two flight attendants had been stabbed-one was seriously hurt and was on oxygen while the other's wounds seemed minor; a doctor had been requested; the flight attendants were unable to contact the cockpit; and there was a bomb in the cockpit. Sweeney told Woodward that she and Ong were trying to relay as much information as they could to people on the ground.... At 8:44, Gonzalez reported losing phone contact with Ong. About this same time Sweeney reported to Woodward," Something is wrong. We are in a rapid descent . . . we are all over the place." Woodward asked Sweeney to look out the window to see if she could determine where they were. Sweeney responded: "We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low." Seconds later she said, "Oh my God we are way too low." The phone call ended.38 Quote United 175 The hijackers attacked sometime between 8:42 and 8:46.They used knives (as reported by two passengers and a flight attendant), Mace (reported by one passenger), and the threat of a bomb (reported by the same passenger). They stabbed members of the flight crew (reported by a flight attendant and one passenger). Both pilots had been killed Now I am not smart, or John Wane...But if they kill the pilots...and others...They will kill more and are up to no good. QuoteAt 8:59, Flight 175 passenger Brian David Sweeney tried to call his wife, Julie. He left a message on their home answering machine that the plane had been hijacked. He then called his mother, Louise Sweeney, told her the flight had been hijacked, and added that the passengers were thinking about storming the cockpit to take control of the plane away from the hijackers.48 At 9:00, Lee Hanson received a second call from his son Peter: It's getting bad, Dad-A stewardess was stabbed-They seem to have knives and Mace-They said they have a bomb-It's getting very bad on the plane-Passengers are throwing up and getting sick-The plane is making jerky movements-I don't think the pilot is flying the plane-I think we are going down-I think they intend to go to Chicago or someplace and fly into a building-Don't worry, Dad- If it happens, it'll be very fast-My God, my God.49 Seems like they knew before all hell broke loose. QuoteUnited 93 Five seconds later, Jarrah asked, "Is that it? Shall we finish it off?" A hijacker responded, "No. Not yet. When they all come, we finish it off." The sounds of fighting continued outside the cockpit. Again, Jarrah pitched the nose of the aircraft up and down. At 10:00:26, a passenger in the background said, "In the cockpit. If we don't we'll die!" Sixteen seconds later, a passenger yelled, "Roll it!" Jarrah stopped the violent maneuvers at about 10:01:00 and said, "Allah is the greatest! Allah is the greatest!" He then asked another hijacker in the cock-pit, "Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?" to which the other replied, "Yes, put it in it, and pull it down."88 The passengers continued their assault and at 10:02:23, a hijacker said, "Pull it down! Pull it down!" The hijackers remained at the controls but must have judged that the passengers were only seconds from overcoming them. The airplane headed down; the control wheel was turned hard to the right. The airplane rolled onto its back, and one of the hijackers began shouting "Allah is the greatest. Allah is the greatest." With the sounds of the passenger counterattack continuing, the aircraft plowed into an empty field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, at 580 miles per hour, about 20 minutes' flying time from Washington, D.C.89 Jarrah's objective was to crash his airliner into symbols of the American Republic, the Capitol or the White House. He was defeated by the alerted, unarmed passengers of United 93. QuoteWhat do you want to say about this, Ron? One single hero (someone like Arnie f.e?) could have save their lifes? These were normals like you and me. In deepest fear. Read this part again: QuoteHe was defeated by the alerted, unarmed passengers of United 93. Do your homework next time."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 March 3, 2005 QuoteThe first flights didn't have the benefit of knowing what was to come No, but they saw the terrorist killing people. Even one flight saw the pilots killed. Read the report? The good parts on another post of mine...They all had a clue, but they didn't do anything. QuoteThey had every reason to believe this was a typical hijacking, and rushing the cabin would be more likely to lead to unncessary death. You don't tend to kill the pilots in a nomal hijacking... QuoteThe last flight did know, thanks to use of cellular. People on all the flight had a clue..Only the last flight *knew*. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #49 March 4, 2005 QuoteYou are a shame to your own country. JohnRich. How the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? BS. That's what you talk. Crap. Posts like yours make believe the world around the US it's better to stay out. First of all, you demonstrate your illogic by transferring your dislike for my personal point of view, to a reason to dislike the entire United States. And please note the private message I sent you by dropzone.com e-mail. I'm afraid it is too unkind to post here. All I said was, that if I had the power to help someone in dire need, that I would. "Having the power" means the circumstances are appropriate, and the ability is present. I fail to understand how that can be so revolting. I think that the world would be a much better place if everyone adopted my philosophy here. To those who have the power and means to help someone in dire need, yet stand by and do nothing - you need a reality check on your humanity, and your courage. There's a famous quote that applies here; "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." You, Christelsabine, advocate doing nothing... . . . And with that, I'm off for a three-day weekend of hiking and camping in the desert, and visiting old Indian caves with pictographs painted on the rock walls. Attached are a few photos from my previous trip two weekends ago. 1) Jimenez Spring, Devil's River area - beautiful & with wild turkey! 2) A dry creekbed in the Devil's River area - difficult hiking. 3) Seminole Canyon, Mexico border, Indian cave in background. 4) Cave pictograph. Whatzit? Your guess is as good as mine! 5) Another pictograph with human figures. You have three days to bash me without any response on my part. You better take advantage of it while it lasts... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Travman 6 #50 March 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn Australia you are only legally allowed to defend yourself, or your spouse You mean it's a crime to defend your children, your friends, or complete strangers in desperate trouble? Thats right, protecting yourself and your spouse is self defence. You are allowed to use the minimum required force necesscary to subdue or arrest the attcker. Minimum required force is determined by the situation, the acceptable level of force is different if you are being attacked by a 50kg girl compared with a 110kg football player. Protecting anyone else is not as clear-cut and decided in a court. This is how it was explained to me by a member of the Australian Federal Police force. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
JohnRich 4 #49 March 4, 2005 QuoteYou are a shame to your own country. JohnRich. How the hell was anyone in those planes able to help himself or the others? BS. That's what you talk. Crap. Posts like yours make believe the world around the US it's better to stay out. First of all, you demonstrate your illogic by transferring your dislike for my personal point of view, to a reason to dislike the entire United States. And please note the private message I sent you by dropzone.com e-mail. I'm afraid it is too unkind to post here. All I said was, that if I had the power to help someone in dire need, that I would. "Having the power" means the circumstances are appropriate, and the ability is present. I fail to understand how that can be so revolting. I think that the world would be a much better place if everyone adopted my philosophy here. To those who have the power and means to help someone in dire need, yet stand by and do nothing - you need a reality check on your humanity, and your courage. There's a famous quote that applies here; "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." You, Christelsabine, advocate doing nothing... . . . And with that, I'm off for a three-day weekend of hiking and camping in the desert, and visiting old Indian caves with pictographs painted on the rock walls. Attached are a few photos from my previous trip two weekends ago. 1) Jimenez Spring, Devil's River area - beautiful & with wild turkey! 2) A dry creekbed in the Devil's River area - difficult hiking. 3) Seminole Canyon, Mexico border, Indian cave in background. 4) Cave pictograph. Whatzit? Your guess is as good as mine! 5) Another pictograph with human figures. You have three days to bash me without any response on my part. You better take advantage of it while it lasts... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #50 March 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn Australia you are only legally allowed to defend yourself, or your spouse You mean it's a crime to defend your children, your friends, or complete strangers in desperate trouble? Thats right, protecting yourself and your spouse is self defence. You are allowed to use the minimum required force necesscary to subdue or arrest the attcker. Minimum required force is determined by the situation, the acceptable level of force is different if you are being attacked by a 50kg girl compared with a 110kg football player. Protecting anyone else is not as clear-cut and decided in a court. This is how it was explained to me by a member of the Australian Federal Police force. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
