TypicalFish 0 #1 March 3, 2005 I am curious, given some of the posts I have read as of late, as to where you "draw the line"... You are carrying a firearm, and are walking around shopping in a drug store, when you notice a commotion at the front... A man has pulled a handgun and is having the teller empty the cash drawer... Odds are (and yes, armed robbery statistics will back this up) that he will take the money and go without hurting anyone... What do you do? ... Do you draw and fire while you have the tactical advantage of surprise?... Wait and see if he makes a threatening move?... Let him leave because the cash register take at a drugstore isn't worth killing him over?... Not passing any kind of judgement; just curious as to reactions... And you have to admit; it is a much more likely scenario than a singer getting shot at a concert or a guy attacking his ex-wife at the courthouse... When does it become worth the feeling that you will have from pulling the trigger and putting someone (no matter how much of a scumbag) in the grave? And yes, some people do belong there. I am just trying to gauge people's reactions."I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #2 March 3, 2005 Quote Odds are (and yes, armed robbery statistics will back this up) that he will take the money and go without hurting anyone... What do you do? ... Do you draw and fire while you have the tactical advantage of surprise?.. No, you would run the risk of missing and possibly hitting somone else, or drawing fire from the person, which could then hit someone else. Quote Wait and see if he makes a threatening move?... Not sure what you mean, after all, armed robbery is pretty threatening already. Quote Let him leave because the cash register take at a drugstore isn't worth killing him over?... Let him leave, get the license plate on the car, give it to the police, let them do their job. The gun is a last resort. It is the job of the police to get the suspect, not anyone elses. If he started shooting it would be a different story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #3 March 3, 2005 QuoteNot sure what you mean, after all, armed robbery is pretty threatening already. Agreed; to clarify, a move that would indicate that he IS going to shoot somebody..."I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #4 March 3, 2005 Quote QuoteNot sure what you mean, after all, armed robbery is pretty threatening already. Agreed; to clarify, a move that would indicate that he IS going to shoot somebody... I would have to be pretty damn sure he was going to start shooting before I'd do anything, as pulling a weapon is probably going to make the situation worse for everyone involved. (ie. the guy was all over the news the night before becuase he robbed a store and shot a bunch of people) IF I was sure he was going to start shooting, AND he didn't know I was there, AND I had a clear shot that I was 100% sure I could hit, AND there was no possibility of hitting anyone else, only then would I even consider action. Possible Outcomes that I see: 1: You take a shot, miss, and he starts shooting, people die. 2. You take a shot, miss him, hit someone else, he starts shooting, people die. 3. You do nothing, wait until he leaves, get license plate, call police. Police pursue/make arrest later/etc. No one gets hurt. (Most likely scenario) 4. You take a shot, hit him, he goes down, you get lucky, no one gets hurt (except the guy robbing the place) In this situation, the odds wouldn't be in my favor. When other people's lives are involved, it's a completely different story (as opposed to someone breaking into your house with a gun, where the only people likely to get injured are yourself and the guy that broke in). I very rarely leave my house with a gun, just so you know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 March 3, 2005 Quoteas pulling a weapon is probably going to make the situation worse for everyone involved. Yup. Not only that but the instant you pull your weapon you become legally liable for many many things. Firstly, lets say you overcome all odds and acutally shoot true while your heart is pumping, but the round goes through the perp and hits an innocent person. You are now legally liable for that innocent person. I truely enjoy shooting and going to the range so I'm quite a good shot which came from many many rounds being sent down range; however, I've never had to shoot in a true situation before so I can not honestly say I will shoot as well as I do on the range no matter how good and how realistic my training has been. As quickly or as accurate and I'm not willing to "chance it" if my life isn't in immediate danger. My weapon is to protect myself and my family. Beyond that they're on their own. I'm not a cop (yet) so until then its not my job to protect everyone else that was careless enough not to protect themselves, infact I have no legal binding to protect anyone else except my own person. Honestly, I would do everything in my power to be a "fly on the wall" and not draw attention to myself, remember the description, remember the license plate, make and model of the car and call the police. If the perp starts shooting then in that instant my life is now in danger and I will take action to protect myself. As for the clerk? I'm sorry if the perp's shots are accurate and the clerk dies, but it wasn't my job to protect you and I'm not willing to take legal responsibility to attempt to protect you. Although I will go to your funeral and mourn your life. There is practically no good to come from trying to be a hero, however there is a whole lot of bad that can come from it.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #6 March 3, 2005 I think you have to becareful, as soon as you pull a gun, the offender will feel threatened will be far more likely to shoot someone. In Australia you are only legally allowed to defend yourself, or your spouse and the force must not exceed the perceived threat - any other cases are judged on the circumstances. Firearms are considered lethal force, even a shot in the leg. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bdog 0 #7 March 3, 2005 what do you do? -You MUST be able to articulate,in court, why such action that you take is reasonable. that is, what a reasonable and prudent person would do under similiar conditions. -the burden of proof at the time of the pending shooting is upon HIM, unless obviously unavoidable or if such warning puts you in grave danger, issue a challenge "freeze" "don't move" ect. puts his actions in issue. (if you say don't move and he does, well then... -Post shooting investigation burden of proof may be upon you (get an attorney immediately and do not answer ANY questions without one). -call 911 and explain that you were forced to shoot someone in an effort to preserve life. kick back and what for the pending lawsuit which WILL be filed. Just because it is filed does not mean you will loose, however you will need and ATTORNEY. depending upon where you live there may be other issues ie: discharging a weapon in the city limits, noise ordiance, ect........................_________________________________________ ---Future Darwin Award recipient- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bdog 0 #8 March 3, 2005 Odds are (and yes, armed robbery statistics will back this up) that he will take the money and go without hurting anyone... What do you do? ... sounds like some of the passengers of the 911 attacks._________________________________________ ---Future Darwin Award recipient- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #9 March 3, 2005 "There is practically no good to come from trying to be a hero, however there is a whole lot of bad that can come from it." Its bound to be difficult to resist the urge to 'have a go' though. I know a little of your character, and have a fair idea of your sense of right and wrong (I mean this in the best possible way, you and I share many opinions what is and is not right). So I find it hard to believe that you would not want to remain uninvolved in such a situation. I know I would be in a tight moral spot if I was in a situation to affect the final outcome of the scenario described.... A lot of people here were praising the actions of 'heros' who got involved in the court shooting incident from Texas recently. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1503384;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread As for a self defence situation, we in the UK have 3 tests which must all be satisfied for a claim of self defence to be valid (if I got the Sherriff's[ a Scottish judge] briefing at my recent jury duty correct). You must be in immediate danger, a clear and present threat if you like. You must have exercised every reasonable means to escape or even avoid the situation in the first place. The means of self defence must not be disproportionate to the threat. I'm pretty sure a similar set of qualifications must exist for you guys.....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #10 March 3, 2005 QuotePossible Outcomes that I see: 1: You take a shot, miss, and he starts shooting, people die. 2. You take a shot, miss him, hit someone else, he starts shooting, people die. 3. You do nothing, wait until he leaves, get license plate, call police. Police pursue/make arrest later/etc. No one gets hurt. (Most likely scenario) 4. You take a shot, hit him, he goes down, you get lucky, no one gets hurt (except the guy robbing the place) You missed a few scenarios. 5. You draw your weapon and the mere sight of it causes the perp to give up, nobody dies. 6. You do nothing and he starts shooting, people die. I'm sure that there are more. I guess the point is that I think nobody knows what they would do until they are truely in the middle of a situation like this one. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #11 March 3, 2005 Well, I've been in a comparable situation. I'm in South Africa, and an abbreviation of the rules here would probably be - you can use a firearm to secure an arrest or shoot the criminal if - Lethal force has been used, or you BELEIVE the use of lethal force is imminent. I see none of the people (Edit: apart from Jimbo who was quicker on the draw than I was ) who said "Wait till he runs out the door" thought the criminal may kill the teller prior to doing that. I chose to get involved. I shot 2 men, the 3rd turned and ran. My decision to do something was based on "Use of deadly force" as they had shot the man standing next to me and were shooting at me, having fired a total of 18 rounds to my 2. Maybe our legal system is different from yours, but here, the prosecutor looks at the evidence and decides whether the case will even go to court. Since my incident had about 30 witnesses - that was the last I heard of it. I feel that when someone sticks a gun in someone else's face "the use of lethal force is imminent." If it were not - what is the purpose of the firearm? I think most reasonable men would agree that someone who uses a firearm to rob someone is predisposed to using that firearm if the need arises. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #12 March 3, 2005 I hope never to find myself in the situation you were placed in........but if for some reason I do,I hope to conclude it in a swift, favourable manner....... Remind me never to get in a gun fight with youMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #13 March 3, 2005 QuoteI hope never to find myself in the situation you were placed in........ Then don't work as a bouncer... it's truely a mugs game. QuoteRemind me never to get in a gun fight with you Well - that's unlikely. I'm "walking the earth like Cain from Kung Fu" like Jules - The bad assed mother fucker from Pulp Fiction. I don't carry anymore. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #14 March 3, 2005 Quote You missed a few scenarios. Yup. Quote 5. You draw your weapon and the mere sight of it causes the perp to give up, nobody dies. It's possible, but I'm not sure how likely. I'm inclined to think that it wouldn't go so well. People do crazy things when in sticky situations. Quote 6. You do nothing and he starts shooting, people die. It could happen, but I think it is more likely he would fire if provoked. If he is robbing a store, his goal is money, not killing people. Quote I'm sure that there are more. I guess the point is that I think nobody knows what they would do until they are truely in the middle of a situation like this one. True. I had to sit here and think about the possible outcomes of each action, but I doubt I would have that luxury in a real life scenario. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 March 3, 2005 QuoteA man has pulled a handgun and is having the teller empty the cash drawer... 1. Stay out of the way and don't draw attention to yourself. 2. Un holster the weapon but not in a way to be noticed. 3. *If possible* draw a bead on the perp without him knowing and from cover or at least concealment 4. Do nothing unless the situation turns. Let him leave if he does not provoke violence. He shoots, tries to take a hostage, ect...Drop him. Do nothing unless there is evidence of it turning bad, AND you think that you can do something to prevent it. It's not your job to stop the crime or even protect anyone else."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #16 March 3, 2005 QuoteIn Australia you are only legally allowed to defend yourself, or your spouse You mean it's a crime to defend your children, your friends, or complete strangers in desperate trouble? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 March 3, 2005 Quote>Odds are (and yes, armed robbery statistics will back this up) that he will take the money and go without hurting anyone... What do you do? ... sounds like some of the passengers of the 911 attacks. That was a first. And as it was, most of the hijackers weren't aware that they signed on for a suicide mission either. Now does the criteria for intervention change for anyone if the perp has a knife instead of a gun? Do you come out with the gun right away, or as soon as he heads for the door? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #18 March 3, 2005 QuoteWhen does it become worth the feeling that you will have from pulling the trigger and putting someone (no matter how much of a scumbag) in the grave? When does doing nothing become worth the feeling that you will have for the rest of your life, knowing that you could have saved someone's life, and didn't? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #19 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhen does it become worth the feeling that you will have from pulling the trigger and putting someone (no matter how much of a scumbag) in the grave? When does doing nothing become worth the feeling that you will have for the rest of your life, knowing that you could have saved someone's life, and didn't? Heaven, I'm in tears. That's what a hero is made of I see just an unknown person beside me beeing attacked by another stranger....and, Good John Wayne that I am... pull out my revolver, give a precise gunshot. Attacker is dead, I go home and feel well. I saved a life. Bwhahahahah. I believe every single word you said. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #20 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhen does it become worth the feeling that you will have from pulling the trigger and putting someone (no matter how much of a scumbag) in the grave? When does doing nothing become worth the feeling that you will have for the rest of your life, knowing that you could have saved someone's life, and didn't? And how would you feel if while trying to save one person's live, your actions resulted in the deaths of that person, and many others? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #21 March 3, 2005 QuoteAnd how would you feel if while trying to save one person's live, your actions resulted in the deaths of that person, and many others? And how would you feel if you caused the death of the entire human race? Is there a point to the hypotheticals?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #22 March 3, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhen does it become worth the feeling that you will have from pulling the trigger and putting someone (no matter how much of a scumbag) in the grave? When does doing nothing become worth the feeling that you will have for the rest of your life, knowing that you could have saved someone's life, and didn't? And how would you feel if while trying to save one person's live, your actions resulted in the deaths of that person, and many others? That's exactly what I forgot to ask, thank you! May I use your post to add some words to JohnWayne, no sorry, to JohnRich? Danke. Thx. @ JohnRich: Just imagine for one second, even you're best shooter in the world: That bad guy is doing an unexpected movement, a sidestep. Behind him, there is a little 8 yrs/o school girl, frozen in fear, unable to move... But, as you are JohnWayne, you pull the trigger, that's for sure. Later it might be easy for you to say: I did my very best to safe a life. I killed another one but, could I expect that little girl to be there? No. I am innocent like a virgin. Walking away. Law would be at your side? I doubt that. Sorry, justinb138, for using your platform. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #23 March 3, 2005 Quote Is there a point to the hypotheticals? Yes. By looking at each situation, and the possible outcomes, I could determine that my actions are more likely to make the situation worse for everyone involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #24 March 3, 2005 QuoteYes. By looking at each situation, and the possible outcomes, I could determine that my actions are more likely to make the situation worse for everyone involved. Or better. This bad guy could have killed the cashier, and that cashiers baby could have been the person that would one day have become President and ended hunger, world peace, and made Pizza not fattening Thats the problem with hypotheticals.....And the problem with choices in the real world...You don't know and can't guess."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #25 March 3, 2005 QuoteBy looking at each situation, and the possible outcomes, I could determine that my actions are more likely to make the situation worse for everyone involved. So in your mind are there no situations where having and using a gun make things better?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
