steve1 5 #26 February 22, 2005 QuoteQuote I've hunted all my life, probably killed way more than I needed to That’s exactly my point and that's exactly why I stopped. Edit to add. "Connection to nature" sounds like a plain BS to me. Want to be connected? Go hiking or chase that deer with a camera. Or is it killing that makes people feel conencted? The thing is Amax is the killing still going on as long as you are eating meat. You are just paying someone else to do it for you when you buy it at the store. It seems very hippocritical to me if a person says they think killing animals is wrong, yet they continue to buy meat. In my mind wildlife photography will never replace hunting because it's not the same thing. I find hunting to feed my family, extremely rewarding, even if I don't relish the thought of pulling the trigger any more....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #27 February 22, 2005 QuoteThe thing is Amax is the killing still going on as long as you are eating meat. You are just paying someone else to do it for you when you buy it at the store. It seems very hippocritical to me if a person says they think killing animals is wrong, yet they continue to buy meat. Oh I do realize that they kill animals for the meat we get in supermarkets. But what about trophy hunting? You do not always kill for meat, do you? Quote In my mind wildlife photography will never replace hunting because it's not the same thing. Of course it is not. If you chase a deer with camera you cannot kill it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #28 February 22, 2005 QuoteQuote There is however a danger of negative influence on genetic pool because elimination by hunting is SELECTIVE. The negative changes may not be obvious immediately but there no guarantee that genetic pool will not be altered in a long term scale. reply] I think this argument is a weak one. I'd like to read some conclusive proof that this is going on, because I don't think it is. There are still many predators around in most cases to cull the sick and weak. Winter weather is another factor that culls the weaker animals. Who's to say the human hunters aren't culling out the stupider ones of the species. The more intelligent animals often don't get shot, and are able to outwit hunters. I've heard this gene pool argument before in terms of trophy hunting, and frankly I don't think it holds water. Just because some hunters choose to shoot an older bigger animal instead of a young one doesn't mean it is messing up the gene pool in the least. I think the evolutionary process is still alive and well in our present day game herds. Just because someone wrote an opinion article with some weak statistics to go along with it, doesn't make it a fact.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #29 February 22, 2005 >There are still many predators around in most cases to cull the sick and weak. Agreed; and as long as hunters stick to killing the sick, weak, old animals, then there's not much worry that you'll mess with that process. However, often that's not the case. Because of that, limits are necessary to prevent undue depletion of the herd. As long as you stick to the limit, any influences on overall evolutionary direction is going to be minor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #30 February 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe thing is Amax is the killing still going on as long as you are eating meat. You are just paying someone else to do it for you when you buy it at the store. It seems very hippocritical to me if a person says they think killing animals is wrong, yet they continue to buy meat. Oh I do realize that they kill animals for the meat we get in supermarkets. But what about trophy hunting? You do not always kill for meat, do you? Quote In my mind wildlife photography will never replace hunting because it's not the same thing. Of course it is not. If you chase a deer with camera you cannot kill it >If I'm trophy hunting it doesn't mean that I'm still not after the meat, or that I plan on wasting any of it. I have often got a big set of horns and a freezer full of meat at the same time. It's also illegal to waste meat from any game animal, even by a trophy hunter. >Oh sure, I could take up photography or knitting for that matter. But like I said it's not the same thing as hunting.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #31 February 22, 2005 QuoteJust because some hunters choose to shoot an older bigger animal instead of a young one doesn't mean it is messing up the gene pool in the least. I think the evolutionary process is still alive and well in our present day game herds. Just because someone wrote an opinion article with some weak statistics to go along with it, doesn't make it a fact.....Steve1 I am afraid you do not really understand the caliber of Nature magazine. A study published in Nature makes a career in science. Unlike the stuff you get from mass media, every article published in magazines like Nature is being revised by several experts in that particular field. Only after revision very insignificant % gets accepted for publication based on importance and quality of the study. It is too bad that you and Kennedy do not find it convincing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #32 February 22, 2005 I am afraid you do not really understand the caliber of Nature magazine. A study published in Nature makes a career in science. Unlike the stuff you get from mass media, every article published in magazines like Nature is being revised by several experts in that particular field. Only after revision very insignificant % gets accepted for publication based on importance and quality of the study. It is too bad that you and Kennedy do not find it convincing. It's not easy getting any article published these days in a national magazine. I suppose there are some good articles in it. It doesn't mean they are all entirely true. As I said I am a hunter and I care a lot about nature. Maybe, I'll read this magazine some time. But then again if it is bashing hunters and printing false hoods I may just throw it in the trash. Did you know that I too am a published author, in a national magazine. Read "Ordeal for a Record Goat" in Bowhunter magazine back in 75 or so(maybe 74). I'm sure I really messed up the gene pool when I stuck an arrow into that old boy. Some of the best jerky I ever ate....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #33 February 22, 2005 So Bill, apparently you're a hunter? Or are you speaking only from what others have told you and you believed what they said? Sort of like a whuffo speaking of the dangers of skydiving... Due to the past rampant hunting of certain species we as humans are obviously not capable of keeping to proper numbers on our own so hunting is regulated to keep the balance. The balance of population control and to prevent over hunting. Most hunters understand this concept and will not over hunt a population of a single animal AND will go to great lengths to provide a good lifestyle and breeding grounds for the animals while they are not in season. If you were a hunter you would know that, but I seriously didn't expect you to know that since its fairly obvious you're not a hunter. Its like in the flooding thread in Bonfire. If you noticed I stated what I had read and thought to be true, once corrected by someone that knows more about it then I do (i.e. you since you live there) I started listening and asking questions since I obviously do not live in CA and don't know all the details. *hint, hint*--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #34 February 22, 2005 >Sort of like a whuffo speaking of the dangers of skydiving... Or like a non-AFF-rated instructor giving advice to freefall students? >Most hunters understand this concept and will not over hunt a population of a single animal . . . Agreed. As we have almost driven several species to extinction here in the US through hunting, though we haven't always been so wise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #35 February 22, 2005 Tell you what, I just removed my first draft of this thread to simply state I'm going to PM you with it instead of following your direction and pulling this thread off topic against HH's suggestions for good thread etiquette. QuoteAgreed. As we have almost driven several species to extinction here in the US through hunting, though we haven't always been so wise. The past century has shown a lot of growing up as a country and a better understanding as ecosystems and how hunting fits into the modern world. Thus I believe at this point the population of the US as a whole is doing well with its hunting. Species are coming back, we're helping that, other species are stronger then ever and are being hunted responsibly and to the betterment of their species.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #36 February 22, 2005 Quote> Agreed. As we have almost driven several species to extinction here in the US through hunting, though we haven't always been so wise. We should also add, that this was back in the days of market hunting when there were no regulations on hunting. Since hunting has become a regulated sport (since about 1900) no game animal has been placed on the endangered list because of hunting in the U.S.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #37 February 23, 2005 what do you mean keeps nature in balance? nature balances out itself. do you mean keep nature the same as 1 point in time and not allow it to adapt to the population increases or decreaces of certain animals? if you think hunting keeps nature in balance. start hunting humans because we are the cause of all the imbalances and if we are not then they are perfectly natural! personally i think sport hunting and fishing is barbaric and unneccecary. if it is done for a food source then sweet. leave the nature balancing to the department of conservation (or what ever you have in your country) because i think you'll find hunting and fishing only disrupts any balance in nature!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #38 February 23, 2005 Quote Should have been "multiple answers allowed." It's fun and it keeps balance in nature. It's called the food chain. We're part of it. yes part of it not at the top of it! posessing guns dosn't allow us to be at the top. hunt for food not fun! in my mind that is murder."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #39 February 23, 2005 Quotewhat do you mean keeps nature in balance? nature balances out itself. Yup. I think after being associated with biological sciences for the past 15 years I got this concept Quote do you mean keep nature the same as 1 point in time and not allow it to adapt to the population increases or decreaces of certain animals? that's what some hunters advocate suggesting that their role in not letting certain population expand is absolutely crucial. Quote we are the cause of all the imbalances and if we are not then they are perfectly natural! There is no doubt about that Quote personally i think sport hunting and fishing is barbaric and unnecessary. I do too and I am not (unfortunately) a whuffo in hunting since I used to hunt a lot including some very challenging forms like wolf hunting. Quote leave the nature balancing to the department of conservation (or what ever you have in your country) I would do that If I had power to make such a change Quote because I think you'll find hunting and fishing only disrupts any balance in nature! Not always true, but there are many examples that prove this point. Disliking hunting was my personal choice and I did not start this discussion because I am personally against killing wild animals. I started it because I believe (repeating what was said before) that the vast majority of hunters hunt because it is a lot of fun for them (look at the results of the poll, and those who think that the poll is too restricted look at my previous post about this poll), but they use all kind of shaky arguments to justify their hobby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #40 February 23, 2005 QuoteQuote look at my previous post about this poll), but they use all kind of shaky arguments to justify their hobby. Call these words shaky if you like. I'll bet it kind of ruffles your feathers knowing that our arguments are based on fact....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #41 February 23, 2005 AMax...rather than beat a dead horse to death, I'm out of here. Cuss me all you like, call my ideas B.S. The fact is you have a right to your beliefs as I have to mine. Neither of us are changing each others mind. It's been fun, but you still aren't making any sense to me. If you rattle on long enough maybe someone will agree with you. Good luck....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
billvon 3,111 #29 February 22, 2005 >There are still many predators around in most cases to cull the sick and weak. Agreed; and as long as hunters stick to killing the sick, weak, old animals, then there's not much worry that you'll mess with that process. However, often that's not the case. Because of that, limits are necessary to prevent undue depletion of the herd. As long as you stick to the limit, any influences on overall evolutionary direction is going to be minor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #30 February 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe thing is Amax is the killing still going on as long as you are eating meat. You are just paying someone else to do it for you when you buy it at the store. It seems very hippocritical to me if a person says they think killing animals is wrong, yet they continue to buy meat. Oh I do realize that they kill animals for the meat we get in supermarkets. But what about trophy hunting? You do not always kill for meat, do you? Quote In my mind wildlife photography will never replace hunting because it's not the same thing. Of course it is not. If you chase a deer with camera you cannot kill it >If I'm trophy hunting it doesn't mean that I'm still not after the meat, or that I plan on wasting any of it. I have often got a big set of horns and a freezer full of meat at the same time. It's also illegal to waste meat from any game animal, even by a trophy hunter. >Oh sure, I could take up photography or knitting for that matter. But like I said it's not the same thing as hunting.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #31 February 22, 2005 QuoteJust because some hunters choose to shoot an older bigger animal instead of a young one doesn't mean it is messing up the gene pool in the least. I think the evolutionary process is still alive and well in our present day game herds. Just because someone wrote an opinion article with some weak statistics to go along with it, doesn't make it a fact.....Steve1 I am afraid you do not really understand the caliber of Nature magazine. A study published in Nature makes a career in science. Unlike the stuff you get from mass media, every article published in magazines like Nature is being revised by several experts in that particular field. Only after revision very insignificant % gets accepted for publication based on importance and quality of the study. It is too bad that you and Kennedy do not find it convincing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #32 February 22, 2005 I am afraid you do not really understand the caliber of Nature magazine. A study published in Nature makes a career in science. Unlike the stuff you get from mass media, every article published in magazines like Nature is being revised by several experts in that particular field. Only after revision very insignificant % gets accepted for publication based on importance and quality of the study. It is too bad that you and Kennedy do not find it convincing. It's not easy getting any article published these days in a national magazine. I suppose there are some good articles in it. It doesn't mean they are all entirely true. As I said I am a hunter and I care a lot about nature. Maybe, I'll read this magazine some time. But then again if it is bashing hunters and printing false hoods I may just throw it in the trash. Did you know that I too am a published author, in a national magazine. Read "Ordeal for a Record Goat" in Bowhunter magazine back in 75 or so(maybe 74). I'm sure I really messed up the gene pool when I stuck an arrow into that old boy. Some of the best jerky I ever ate....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #33 February 22, 2005 So Bill, apparently you're a hunter? Or are you speaking only from what others have told you and you believed what they said? Sort of like a whuffo speaking of the dangers of skydiving... Due to the past rampant hunting of certain species we as humans are obviously not capable of keeping to proper numbers on our own so hunting is regulated to keep the balance. The balance of population control and to prevent over hunting. Most hunters understand this concept and will not over hunt a population of a single animal AND will go to great lengths to provide a good lifestyle and breeding grounds for the animals while they are not in season. If you were a hunter you would know that, but I seriously didn't expect you to know that since its fairly obvious you're not a hunter. Its like in the flooding thread in Bonfire. If you noticed I stated what I had read and thought to be true, once corrected by someone that knows more about it then I do (i.e. you since you live there) I started listening and asking questions since I obviously do not live in CA and don't know all the details. *hint, hint*--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #34 February 22, 2005 >Sort of like a whuffo speaking of the dangers of skydiving... Or like a non-AFF-rated instructor giving advice to freefall students? >Most hunters understand this concept and will not over hunt a population of a single animal . . . Agreed. As we have almost driven several species to extinction here in the US through hunting, though we haven't always been so wise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #35 February 22, 2005 Tell you what, I just removed my first draft of this thread to simply state I'm going to PM you with it instead of following your direction and pulling this thread off topic against HH's suggestions for good thread etiquette. QuoteAgreed. As we have almost driven several species to extinction here in the US through hunting, though we haven't always been so wise. The past century has shown a lot of growing up as a country and a better understanding as ecosystems and how hunting fits into the modern world. Thus I believe at this point the population of the US as a whole is doing well with its hunting. Species are coming back, we're helping that, other species are stronger then ever and are being hunted responsibly and to the betterment of their species.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #36 February 22, 2005 Quote> Agreed. As we have almost driven several species to extinction here in the US through hunting, though we haven't always been so wise. We should also add, that this was back in the days of market hunting when there were no regulations on hunting. Since hunting has become a regulated sport (since about 1900) no game animal has been placed on the endangered list because of hunting in the U.S.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #37 February 23, 2005 what do you mean keeps nature in balance? nature balances out itself. do you mean keep nature the same as 1 point in time and not allow it to adapt to the population increases or decreaces of certain animals? if you think hunting keeps nature in balance. start hunting humans because we are the cause of all the imbalances and if we are not then they are perfectly natural! personally i think sport hunting and fishing is barbaric and unneccecary. if it is done for a food source then sweet. leave the nature balancing to the department of conservation (or what ever you have in your country) because i think you'll find hunting and fishing only disrupts any balance in nature!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #38 February 23, 2005 Quote Should have been "multiple answers allowed." It's fun and it keeps balance in nature. It's called the food chain. We're part of it. yes part of it not at the top of it! posessing guns dosn't allow us to be at the top. hunt for food not fun! in my mind that is murder."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #39 February 23, 2005 Quotewhat do you mean keeps nature in balance? nature balances out itself. Yup. I think after being associated with biological sciences for the past 15 years I got this concept Quote do you mean keep nature the same as 1 point in time and not allow it to adapt to the population increases or decreaces of certain animals? that's what some hunters advocate suggesting that their role in not letting certain population expand is absolutely crucial. Quote we are the cause of all the imbalances and if we are not then they are perfectly natural! There is no doubt about that Quote personally i think sport hunting and fishing is barbaric and unnecessary. I do too and I am not (unfortunately) a whuffo in hunting since I used to hunt a lot including some very challenging forms like wolf hunting. Quote leave the nature balancing to the department of conservation (or what ever you have in your country) I would do that If I had power to make such a change Quote because I think you'll find hunting and fishing only disrupts any balance in nature! Not always true, but there are many examples that prove this point. Disliking hunting was my personal choice and I did not start this discussion because I am personally against killing wild animals. I started it because I believe (repeating what was said before) that the vast majority of hunters hunt because it is a lot of fun for them (look at the results of the poll, and those who think that the poll is too restricted look at my previous post about this poll), but they use all kind of shaky arguments to justify their hobby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #40 February 23, 2005 QuoteQuote look at my previous post about this poll), but they use all kind of shaky arguments to justify their hobby. Call these words shaky if you like. I'll bet it kind of ruffles your feathers knowing that our arguments are based on fact....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #41 February 23, 2005 AMax...rather than beat a dead horse to death, I'm out of here. Cuss me all you like, call my ideas B.S. The fact is you have a right to your beliefs as I have to mine. Neither of us are changing each others mind. It's been fun, but you still aren't making any sense to me. If you rattle on long enough maybe someone will agree with you. Good luck....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
AMax 0 #39 February 23, 2005 Quotewhat do you mean keeps nature in balance? nature balances out itself. Yup. I think after being associated with biological sciences for the past 15 years I got this concept Quote do you mean keep nature the same as 1 point in time and not allow it to adapt to the population increases or decreaces of certain animals? that's what some hunters advocate suggesting that their role in not letting certain population expand is absolutely crucial. Quote we are the cause of all the imbalances and if we are not then they are perfectly natural! There is no doubt about that Quote personally i think sport hunting and fishing is barbaric and unnecessary. I do too and I am not (unfortunately) a whuffo in hunting since I used to hunt a lot including some very challenging forms like wolf hunting. Quote leave the nature balancing to the department of conservation (or what ever you have in your country) I would do that If I had power to make such a change Quote because I think you'll find hunting and fishing only disrupts any balance in nature! Not always true, but there are many examples that prove this point. Disliking hunting was my personal choice and I did not start this discussion because I am personally against killing wild animals. I started it because I believe (repeating what was said before) that the vast majority of hunters hunt because it is a lot of fun for them (look at the results of the poll, and those who think that the poll is too restricted look at my previous post about this poll), but they use all kind of shaky arguments to justify their hobby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #40 February 23, 2005 QuoteQuote look at my previous post about this poll), but they use all kind of shaky arguments to justify their hobby. Call these words shaky if you like. I'll bet it kind of ruffles your feathers knowing that our arguments are based on fact....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #41 February 23, 2005 AMax...rather than beat a dead horse to death, I'm out of here. Cuss me all you like, call my ideas B.S. The fact is you have a right to your beliefs as I have to mine. Neither of us are changing each others mind. It's been fun, but you still aren't making any sense to me. If you rattle on long enough maybe someone will agree with you. Good luck....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
steve1 5 #41 February 23, 2005 AMax...rather than beat a dead horse to death, I'm out of here. Cuss me all you like, call my ideas B.S. The fact is you have a right to your beliefs as I have to mine. Neither of us are changing each others mind. It's been fun, but you still aren't making any sense to me. If you rattle on long enough maybe someone will agree with you. Good luck....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
