hydrogen-powered bus in Florida

[happythoughts 0]

news

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ORLANDO, Fla. -- Florida doesn't have its first hydrogen fueling station yet, but it's got a hydrogen-powered bus ready to fill up.

The 12-seat, $1 million-plus vehicle was brought into a vacant lot Friday where the state's first hydrogen fueling station will be built. Gov. Jeb Bush announced a proposal for $15 million in grants and tax incentives for companies who help Florida develop and use the clean-burning fuel.

"This is a launch that will propel Florida into new technologies," Bush said in Orlando. "If you don't have the fuel stations, you can't have the fueled vehicles. Part of our strategy is to focus on developing hydrogen stations across the state as this plan develops."

Florida will eventually receive eight of the buses to be used to shuttle car rental customers at Orlando International Airport and tourists at the NASA visitor center. The state is paying $250,000 for each -- the same cost as a traditional shuttle -- under a partnership with Ford. Hertz Corp. will pay for maintenance, service and operation of the buses.

Ford Motor Co. chief executive Bill Ford said that Florida is the company's first customer for the buses, which have a range of about 150 miles. It is also working with the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport on a deal to bring buses there.

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"It's just because they're so expensive," Ford said. "They're hard to manufacture, but our whole industry is pushing hard. This will allow the hydrogen infrastructure to get into place."

Under bills being prepared by Sen. Lee Constantine, R-Altamonte Springs, and Rep. Adam Hasner, R-Delray Beach, companies would receive tax breaks or grants for purchasing hydrogen-powered equipment or developing and demonstrating hydrogen technology.

This sounds like a step in the right direction.

Gov. Bush is actively pursuing this. This is one step in one of many alternative fuels projects.

alternative fuels projects

Hydrogen, solar, and clean vehicles are all being implemented using a variety of directions.

- partnerships with corporations
- tax rebates for solar-equipped home builders
- clean vehicle fleets
- tax incentives to corporations
- research funding at schools
- building infrastructure
- solar heaters to low-income housing

[Jimbo 0]

Hydrogen, neat. I have to wonder though, does hydrogen really have a shot as the fuel of the future? How much energy does it take to produce hydrogen? I seem to recall that it's a lot, a whole lot more than we get out of it. The next obvious question is - where is the energy necessary to produce hydrogen going to come from?

One final question about the viability of hydrogen powered cars - how will they fare, or how will WE fare with hydrogen powered cars in the states that tend to get cold in the winter? Their only emission is water, right? I'm seeing a whole lot of icy roads here. Am I mistaken?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[justinb138 0]

I think it's a step in the right direction, but how safe is it to have vehicles full of compressed hydrogen driving on the highways?

[akarunway 1]

Hydrogen, neat. I have to wonder though, does hydrogen really have a shot as the fuel of the future? How much energy does it take to produce hydrogen? I seem to recall that it's a lot, a whole lot more than we get out of it. The next obvious question is - where is the energy necessary to produce hydrogen going to come from?
==================================The most abundant element in the universe. Big oil will fight it tooth and nail.......Nother cleaner in byproducts in my opinion........................................Preparation of hydrogen. In the laboratory, hydrogen can be produced by the electrolysis of water In electrolysis, an electric current breaks down the water into its two elements, the gases hydrogen and oxygen. Commercially, large amounts of hydrogen are a by-product of the manufacture of sodium hydroxide by the electrolysis of brine. But most commercial hydrogen is produced either by passing steam over hot coke or iron or by causing steam and natural gas to react in the presence of a catalyst (see Catalysis).

Sodium and many other chemically active metals react directly with water and release hydrogen from the water even at room temperature. Less active metals, such as magnesium, will free hydrogen from steam Zinc and many other metals react better with acids than they react with water. These metals are used to displace hydrogen from solutions of acids in water. and on and on

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[billvon 3,120]

>Hydrogen, neat. I have to wonder though, does hydrogen really
>have a shot as the fuel of the future?

Not unless we can figure out a _much_ cheaper way to manufacture it. Natural sources are miniscule, and industrial sources (i.e. byproducts of various industial processes, mainly petroleum refining) are about .5% of what we would need to power cars and trucks.

As you mention, we can create hydrogen from electricity, but that makes as much sense as making it from gasoline. If you're going to do that you might as well just use the gasoline in a hybrid. We have hybrids now.

>how will they fare, or how will WE fare with hydrogen powered cars in
> the states that tend to get cold in the winter? Their only emission is
> water, right? I'm seeing a whole lot of icy roads here. Am I mistaken?

What's the issue? Gas engines generate more water than hydrogen powered cars; check out the steam that comes from conventional cars when they're started in cold weather.

[Jimbo 0]

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What's the issue? Gas engines generate more water than hydrogen powered cars; check out the steam that comes from conventional cars when they're started in cold weather.

Not sure, exactly. But since people have been touting water as the only byproduct of the hydrogen breakdown I figured it might be an issue. So hydrogen powered cars will produce less water over the course of 60 miles than a gasoline engine will? (Which likely doesn't matter if we can't figure out how to manufacture it inexpensively.)

Finally - since hydrogen, at least based on today's technology' doesn't likely have a real future - what is the solution for the future? Hybrids are here now, perhaps a bio-diesel/hybrid? I would imagine that solar is way too expensive. It's no secret that we'll run out of oil one day - what's next, and more importantly, what has a real shot?

OK - One LAST question(s) - since hydrogen likely doesn't have a future why are spending any money on it at all? Who pumped up the masses with the notion that hydrogen would save us all?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[shropshire 0]

Here's another interesting site ....
http://www.culturechange.org/hydrogen.htm

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Perhaps the largest problem for hydrogen fuel cell transportation is the size of the fuel tanks. In gaseous form, a volume of 238,000 litres of hydrogen gas is necessary to replace the energy capacity of 20 gallons of gasoline.

- tho' mixing imperial and metric units in the same sentence doesn't make for easy comparrison!


Also, ask the majority of commercial Hydrogen is manufactured by Reforming HydroCarbons (natural gas, Oil etc..) we would still be reliant on the Fossel fuel companies

Quote

Currently, most hydrogen is produced by the treatment of methane with steam, following the formula: CH4 (g) + H2O + e > 3H2(g) + CO(g). The CO(g) in this equation is carbon monoxide gas, which is a byproduct of the reaction.

Not entered into this formula is the energy required to produce the steam, which usually comes from the burning of fossil fuels.

For this reason, we do not escape the production of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. We simply transfer the generation of this pollution to the hydrogen production plants. This procedure of hydrogen production also results in a severe energy loss. First we have the production of the feedstock methanol from natural gas or coal at a 32 percent to 44 percent net energy loss. Then the steam treatment process to procure the hydrogen will result in a further 35 percent energy loss.

It has often been pointed out that we have an inexhaustible supply of water from which to derive hydrogen. However, this reaction, 2H2O + e = 2H2(g) + O2(g), requires a substantial energy investment per unit of water (286kJ per mole). This energy investment is required by elementary principles of chemistry and can never be reduced.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[skydiver30960 0]

238.000 liters at room temp and pressure. Remember that you'll be humming around in a vehicle with a pressurized tank. I did some VERY back of the envelope calcs, and probably got them wrong, but came up with something like a 500 gal tank of hydrogen being equal to that 20 gal gas tank they were talking about. Consider that compressed gasses are being used at even higher pressures than that nowadays, for example the air packs we're using in the fire service (the new ones at least) are 4500psi units.

All of the above meandering amounts to poo-poo however, because everyone here (including me) seems to be in agreement that the amount of energy and polution necessary to produce hydrogen gas is, at the moment, wildly disproportionate to the environmental savings of burning it cleanly...

Elvisio "morning ranting" Rodriguez

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"polution necessary to produce hydrogen gas is, at the moment, wildly disproportionate to the environmental savings of burning it cleanly..."

Right now, you are probably right, I was listening to radio documentary about Iceland, maybe Greenland, can't recall... they make electricity from geothermal sources, and use it to make hydrogen to power a lot of their public service vehicles.

You guys could feasibly use solar/tidal/hydro power, all you are doing is converting energy from a basically static format, electricity, to a mobile or transportable format.

So it can be done....it has to be the right location though....so far anyways. Maybe we'll start to see hydrogen tankers on the high seas, similar to LPG tankers.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[spidermonky 0]

Storage really isn't the problem. Generating the Hydrogen is. There are several alternatives to pressurized tanks, such as solid state cells that absorb a higher quantity of hydrogen safely.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Hydrogen, neat. I have to wonder though, does hydrogen really have a shot as the fuel of the future? How much energy does it take to produce hydrogen? I seem to recall that it's a lot, a whole lot more than we get out of it. The next obvious question is - where is the energy necessary to produce hydrogen going to come from?
==================================The most abundant element in the universe. Big oil will fight it tooth and nail.......Nother cleaner in byproducts in my opinion........................................Preparation of hydrogen. In the laboratory, hydrogen can be produced by the electrolysis of water In electrolysis, an electric current breaks down the water into its two elements, the gases hydrogen and oxygen. Commercially, large amounts of hydrogen are a by-product of the manufacture of sodium hydroxide by the electrolysis of brine. But most commercial hydrogen is produced either by passing steam over hot coke or iron or by causing steam and natural gas to react in the presence of a catalyst (see Catalysis).

Sodium and many other chemically active metals react directly with water and release hydrogen from the water even at room temperature. Less active metals, such as magnesium, will free hydrogen from steam Zinc and many other metals react better with acids than they react with water. These metals are used to displace hydrogen from solutions of acids in water. and on and on

All of the above beg the question of how do we get the reactive metal in the first place. Metallic sodium (or even zinc) aren't just lying around waiting to be picked up.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

***

OK - One LAST question(s) - since hydrogen likely doesn't have a future why are spending any money on it at all? Who pumped up the masses with the notion that hydrogen would save us all?

-
Jim

From www.whitehouse.gov

"President Bush's Hydrogen Fuel Initiative, announced on January 28, 2003, envisions the transformation of the nation's transportation fleet from a near-total reliance on petroleum to steadily increasing use of clean-burning hydrogen."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[happythoughts 0]

The basic problems that I have with govt activities of any type are:

If the govt isn't doing anything, the scream is "The govt isn't listening and isn't doing anything".

If efforts are being made, then "it isn't enough" or "it is the wrong thing". Generally, "the wrong thing" means that somebody isn't getting funding for their project and they can't build their little empire. This comment comes from colleges seeking funding as well as private single-issue groups who want the money to line their pockets.

I looked through the links and found that several areas are being explored at once. This is not a one-direction effort. There are several pages of information and no one wants to read it all.

Hydrogen is only one avenue. Other things going on:

Solar -
Funding to provide solar water heating to low-income families. Solar electric systems for schools. Rebates to homebuilders using solar water heaters.

Clean vehicles -
Department of Environmental Protection’s fleet has 50 hybrid vehicles and more than 250 alternative fuel vehicles.
The State of Florida is working with FedEx Express to test the viability of low-emission, heavy-duty hybrid-electric diesel delivery vehicles.
The Department’s Office of Greenways & Trails is pumping biodiesel into its fleet of field trucks. According to the U.S. Department of Energy and the Department of Agriculture, biodiesel yields 280 percent more energy than petroleum diesel fuel, while producing 47 percent lower exhaust emissions. Biodiesel is less combustible than petroleum diesel, as harmless as table salt and as biodegradable as sugar.

Other projects -
In Summer 2004, the University of South Florida completed a research project using landfill gas to fuel a 30 Kilowatt micro-turbine which generated electric grid power.

[Jimbo 0]

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I looked through the links and found that several areas are being explored at once. This is not a one-direction effort.

Agreed that it's not a one direction effort, however it does seem to be the one that gets the most press. Is this simply poor marketing by those exploring alternatives to hydrogen? Regardless, since hydrogen is getting all of the press these days how much money will be thrown at it when in fact it's likely a better investment to fund other avenues.

Quote

Solar -
Funding to provide solar water heating to low-income families. Solar electric systems for schools. Rebates to homebuilders using solar water heaters.

Have you looked at solar? It is amazingly expensive. Of course it's likely, like every other technology, to become more efficient and drop in price.

Quote

Clean vehicles -
Department of Environmental Protection’s fleet has 50 hybrid vehicles and more than 250 alternative fuel vehicles.
The State of Florida is working with FedEx Express to test the viability of low-emission, heavy-duty hybrid-electric diesel delivery vehicles.
The Department’s Office of Greenways & Trails is pumping biodiesel into its fleet of field trucks. According to the U.S. Department of Energy and the Department of Agriculture, biodiesel yields 280 percent more energy than petroleum diesel fuel, while producing 47 percent lower exhaust emissions. Biodiesel is less combustible than petroleum diesel, as harmless as table salt and as biodegradable as sugar.

This is where --I'd-- like to see the money spent. While I'm not an expert, this seems like the most reasonable direction for us today.

Quote

Other projects -
In Summer 2004, the University of South Florida completed a research project using landfill gas to fuel a 30 Kilowatt micro-turbine which generated electric grid power.

Sounds neat, but like hydrogen, does this have a future? Can it be rolled out the masses?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[shropshire 0]

Quote

Sounds neat, but like hydrogen, does this have a future? Can it be rolled out the masses?

Agh ... maybe you're right, there probably isn't a single, one solution fits all, answer to our global energy crisis. For so long, we have relied upon fossil fuels and almost nowt else. The future will probably be a basket full of alternatives, each suitable for the diverse problems that we each have, in different geographic environments.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 3,120]

>. So hydrogen powered cars will produce less water over the course of 60
>miles than a gasoline engine will?

In general, yes.

>what is the solution for the future?

There are a lot of potential solutions.

One solution will be electric vehicles with storage system X. X may be lithium polymer; right now you can get a 300 mile range with such a system, but it's prohibitively expensive and somewhat dangerous. X may be ultracapacitors; Maxwell Labs is doing some amazing things with small capacitors these days.

Another solution will be improved roads. Roads with power systems (conductive, inductive, even radiative) could basically give electric vehicles infinite range, for a price of course.

Synthetic fuels are another option. If you can make hydrogen you can make methane just as easily, and methane is ten times easier to transport and store. We even have a network in place to do that right now, and many homes in america have methane (natural gas) systems already installed. A methane producing windmill would be relatively easy to construct.

>Hybrids are here now, perhaps a bio-diesel/hybrid?

That would get you close to 100mpg even with today's technology. Biodiesel is around $3-4/gallon, so you'd end up saving even though the gas is a lot more expensive.

>I would imagine that solar is way too expensive.

It's almost affordable for home power right now, and since everything _except_ sunlight is going to get more expensive it's future is probably pretty bright (no pun intended.)

>OK - One LAST question(s) - since hydrogen likely doesn't have a future
> why are spending any money on it at all?

It is a politically popular solution. It sounds good, like reducing taxes while increasing spending. It doesn't mean it will work out in the long run.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

>. So hydrogen powered cars will produce less water over the course of 60
>miles than a gasoline engine will?

In general, yes.

>what is the solution for the future?

There are a lot of potential solutions.

One solution will be electric vehicles with storage system X. X may be lithium polymer; right now you can get a 300 mile range with such a system, but it's prohibitively expensive and somewhat dangerous.
.

No kidding! I use LiPos in my electric R/C helicopter. They have a very nasty habit of deflagrating if overcharged, overdischarged, or charged/discharged at too high a rate. Often the fire takes an hour or so to incubate so it may start long after the incident that triggered it (so the battery have been put away apparently quite safe). A number of horror stories exist of modellers who've burnt down their houses or destroyed their cars due to LiPo fires.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rdutch 0]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/classroom/la-me-class5jan05,1,5053468.story?coll=la-news-local-classroom&ctrack=1&cset=true

A 17 year old kid designed a way to produce electricity cleanly, this also can be used to produce Hydrogen. Pretty cool idea, also windpower and hydro/electric power can be used to produce hydrogen. We have the means we just need more desire. It would be nice to lower our dependancy for Oil.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/classroom/la-me-class5jan05,1,5053468.story?coll=la-news-local-classroom&ctrack=1&cset=true

A 17 year old kid designed a way to produce electricity cleanly, this also can be used to produce Hydrogen. Pretty cool idea, also windpower and hydro/electric power can be used to produce hydrogen. We have the means we just need more desire. It would be nice to lower our dependancy for Oil.

Requires registration. Can you post the article?

[Rdutch 0]

Teen Invents Way to Get Electricity From the Ocean
A high school senior, 17, wins $100,000 in a national contest. His simple device, called a Gyro-Gen, is aimed at producing pollution-free power from waves.


By Peter Y. Hong, Times Staff Writer


ENCINITAS, Calif. — Growing up minutes from the waves in San Diego County, Aaron Goldin has long been familiar with the ocean's power and abundance. Now, the wiry 17-year-old with a passion for sailing and physics has found a way to turn the force of the ocean's waves into electricity.

Aaron's invention, fashioned in his garage from castoff pieces, could lead to a huge benefit for mankind: practically limitless pollution-free power. It has already paid off in a big way for him. The San Dieguito High School senior won $100,000 in the national Siemens-Westinghouse Competition in Math, Science and Technology for his invention, which he calls the Gyro-Gen.



Finding clean ways to generate electricity is a challenge that vexes the best minds in science. Aaron's idea came to him one day when he was playing with gyroscopes in his garage.

Despite its humble origins, Aaron was immediately aware of the potential for his discovery. "It's the closest I've seen to [a power source] being environmentally benign," he said.

The Gyro-Gen is basically a gyroscope attached to the crank of a generator. Mounted inside an ocean buoy, the spinning gyroscope pushes against the force of waves and turns the generator crank.

For his work, Aaron won the top individual prize in the Siemens-Westinghouse contest, which draws nearly 1,300 entries nationwide and features both individual and team awards. The 6-year-old competition, meant to encourage young Americans to pursue technical careers, has become one of the nation's premier science contests, along with the Intel Science Talent Search, which had been sponsored by Westinghouse from 1942 to 1998.

One of the contest judges, Princeton University engineering professor Richard Miles, said Aaron took an idea for applying a scientific principle and "turned it into reality, demonstrating great independence and originality."

Aaron spends his summers volunteering at the Scripps Oceanographic Institute, where his father, Michael, is an electrical engineer. At the institute, researchers were wondering if it would be possible to build a research vessel that could be self-powered.

With that target in mind, Aaron said, he pondered ways to draw electricity from waves. When he came up with his gyroscope idea, he could not figure out how to apply the idea to powering a boat.

He soon realized it didn't matter and that producing electricity was a far more significant application.

In addition to inspiring him to think about wave-generated power, Aaron said, Scripps played another important role in his work: The institute's trash became an excellent source of equipment and components.

Everything from hunks of plastic to 1980s-era computer printers was scavenged from institute discards for Aaron's prototypes. He tests his devices with old oscilloscopes from the labs.

The family sacrificed for his work. Aaron's first prototype used the front wheel from his younger sister's bicycle. As the project consumed more garage space, his parents parked their cars outside for a year. His father and high school teachers mentored his research.

Showing his latest model to a reporter in the garage workshop, where his tools are neatly arrayed on a table topped with a "Do Not Touch" warning, Aaron identified the origins of the pieces. Some came from obsolete consumer items: a flywheel from a reel-to-reel tape player, a small motor from a telephone answering machine, "the kind that used tapes," he explained. Ball bearings came from a wheel of his skateboard, which he surrendered to the greater cause of energy for the world.

Before the Siemens-Westinghouse contest, Aaron won several other honors, including a first place in the California State Science Fair.

He was selected to attend the national Siemens-Westinghouse competition in Washington, where he triumphed in December.

The honor has brought Aaron wide attention. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger telephoned his house to congratulate him. ("He said he's very glad I did what I did, that it's good for the state.") Former presidential candidate John Kerry also called. ("He actually talked about his concerns about energy. He said it's a very worthy thing to look into, and he hopes I continue.")

ABC News featured him on the nightly newscast as the "Person of the Week."

Linda Goldin, Aaron's mother, said the honors are especially gratifying because "people in sports, actors and entertainment people always get headlines. Not much is said about unsung heroes in math, science and other academics."

Even before his Siemens-Westinghouse win, Aaron felt he had a significant invention and sought help from a patent lawyer. Bing Ai, Aaron's lawyer, said he often hears from people whose ideas have little merit. But as soon as he saw Aaron's description of the Gyro-Gen, the lawyer said, he knew the invention was meaningful. Ai is working with Aaron on patenting the device, which could take from two to four years, Ai said.

"I was very impressed by its simplicity. It is a genuinely innovative use of well-known technology," Ai said. Ai also believes the basic concept of a gyroscope linked to a generator can be used to generate power from sources other than waves, such as wind.

Aaron hopes the Gyro-Gen's simplicity will make it possible to develop generating plants that will produce power as cheaply as coal or oil-burning plants, because cost has been the stumbling block for many alternative energy sources.

He envisions Gyro-Gen plants far into the ocean, where they would be less intrusive than windmills or other land-based systems. From the ocean, power could be transmitted through lines to shore, or the energy could be used to produce hydrogen gas from seawater, and the gas could be sent to shore by pipeline or tanker.

For now, Aaron is busy figuring out to which colleges he'll apply (he was reluctant to discuss his possible choices). He wants to study physics or engineering but would also like to continue to pursue his other interests. He plays the piano and trombone in a jazz band and is an editor on his school's literary magazine.

He hopes to become an academic scientist someday. Although he's happy to have the $100,000 scholarship from Siemens-Westinghouse, he said he is not interested in spending his time pursuing riches from the Gyro-Gen. For him, it's all about the science: "The whole commercial aspect of it, the marketing and applying it, is just not as appealing to me as the actual engineering."

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[happythoughts 0]

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Linda Goldin, Aaron's mother, said the honors are especially gratifying because "people in sports, actors and entertainment people always get headlines. Not much is said about unsung heroes in math, science and other academics."

Sadly, this is true. There is always recognition and "pep rallies" for the sports teams, but little for students who achieve in learning (amazingly ironic).

In the mid 90's, I was a judge at the the Florida State High School Computing Competition. 4-person teams from all over the state met in Tampa at the convention center. That was one of the first signs of progress that I really saw.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

Linda Goldin, Aaron's mother, said the honors are especially gratifying because "people in sports, actors and entertainment people always get headlines. Not much is said about unsung heroes in math, science and other academics."

Sadly, this is true. There is always recognition and "pep rallies" for the sports teams, but little for students who achieve in learning (amazingly ironic).

In the mid 90's, I was a judge at the the Florida State High School Computing Competition. 4-person teams from all over the state met in Tampa at the convention center. That was one of the first signs of progress that I really saw.

I am the organizer of the International High School Bridge Building Contest. We have thousands of students compete each year to build a model wood bridge that supports the greatest load subject to fairly strict constraints. I send a letter to each high school principal who has a winning student at the regional or national level suggesting that some recognition be given by the school. I never get a response.

clicky for details

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.