Deadly Force Guidelines Revised

[Kennedy 0]

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/topstories/index.ssf?/base/national-39/11086080229340.xml&storylist=topstories

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LA police chief revises car-shooting rules

2/16/2005, 10:28 p.m. CT
By PAUL CHAVEZ
The Associated Press

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Ten days after an officer shot to death a 13-year-old who backed a stolen vehicle into a police car, the city Police Commission on Wednesday approved limits on when officers can shoot at moving vehicles.

Under the revised policy, officers cannot fire at a moving vehicle unless someone is threatened with deadly force other than the vehicle. Mayor James Hahn pushed for the change after Devin Brown was shot Feb. 6 following an early morning chase.

"Obviously we will never adopt a policy that would take away the officer's own right to self-defense. But this policy will give clear guidance," Hahn said.

...

The policy revision had been in the works for about a year, since police shot and killed a man who backed up toward officers during a chase broadcast on live television. But the shooting of Brown led Police Chief William Bratton to speed up the work.

The policy says that an officer "threatened by an oncoming vehicle shall move out of its path instead of discharging a firearm at it or any of its occupants." It also bans officers from firing from a moving vehicle, except in extreme circumstances.

The new policy states that although it may not cover every situation, an officer who fires at a moving vehicle must be able to clearly articulate why. Factors that could be considered include whether there were any apparent means of escape.

Police departments in major cities including Boston, Cincinnati and Detroit have adopted similar restrictions in recent years. New York City adopted language almost identical to the new policy in 1972.

...

(editted to remove racial drivel and repetitive lines)

I have to tell you, while seeing video of an officer stepping in front of a vehicle to stop its escape, then shotting "in self defense" shows completely unacceptable action in my book, I don't like the idea of removing cars from the possibles list for assault with a deadly weapon.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[jkm2500 0]

this is ridiculous, I don't care if the kid was 13 years old. He shouldn't have stolen the car, then taken police on an early morning chase, and then backed the car towards them. I don't know more detail about the incident. It is sad that the kid lost his life, but there has to be a certain amount of sadness if the police department is going to be effective. This kid was not innocent by any stretch of the imagination, so why do they need to revamp the laws, it will only protect the criminals.

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[Kennedy 0]

You should;'ve read the shite I removed from my quote.

Once again, "they" are up in arms, raising hate, spewing 'acceptable' racism (afterall, it's against whitey), and blaming the cops for everything.


There were even claims from some $harpton/Jack$on-esque group saying they were going to patrol their own neighborhoods, and that the cops should stay out.

(of course, nobody showed up to replace the cops, and there were the normal number of 911s and service calls...)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Newbie 0]

The thing is, when did a bunch of black cops last unload 10 rounds into a white kid?

Edited to add: in the UK, armed police cannot fire at the occupant of a moving vehicle, i believe, nor out the side of one they are in while in pursuit.

I do know their have been instances where they have attempted to shoot the engine block out or tires, however.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 10]

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The thing is, when did a bunch of black cops last unload 10 rounds into a white kid?

When was the last time a white kid tried to hit a cop after stealing a car and leading them on a chase?

Color had nothing to do with it.

Do stupid things, pay the price for your actions.

I hate when people play the race card.

This kid was driving a stolen car and lead the police on a chase....He then attempted to use the car as a weapon.

Black or white the shooting was justified.

Sad, but you wanna prevent it? Don't steal cars and run from the cops...And by all means don't try to use a car as a weapon.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kennedy 0]

Well, maybe if more qualified black aplicants pusued law enforcement careers, and more white kids led police on car chases, maybe youd' get your wish. Until then, it's a matter of numbers, not racism.

As to your UK comment I don't think any department in the US allows shooting from a moving vehicle, and if they do it's not approved for patrol cops.

Most allow shooting at a moving vehicle only if it is being used as a deadly weapon about to cause great bodily harm.

Some allow tire shotting as longas the shooter is stationary (traffic stop circumstances, etc).

Some don't allow pursuits at all (offering a free ride to any perp that runs in a vehicle).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Casurf1978 0]

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Once again, "they" are up in arms, raising hate, spewing 'acceptable' racism (afterall, it's against whitey), and blaming the cops for everything.

I'm sick of this crap too. Always blame the cops. It's their fault they guy stole a car, evaded police and then tried to run them over. What's a cop supposed to do; let this guy drive around till he kills someone with a stolen car. Then after he runs out of gas pull him out of the car. IMHO the new guideline are a bunch of BS. Pretty soon all cops will be able to do is hold up their badge and shout "Stop".

[justinb138 0]

Agreed. There was a story I saw on the news last night where a shoplifter ran out of a walmart while being pursued by their loss prevention people. They chased him out to the end of the parking lot, where he decided to run across Highway 75. (One of the busiest highways in Dallas). The LP people stopped at the end of the parking lot, but he managed to get him self hit by a few cars while runnning across the highway. I'm wondering how long it's going to be before his family sues walmart for his death.

If you try to run over a cop, expect to get shot. I hate bullshit legislation like this.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm wondering how long it's going to be before his family sues walmart for his death.

I bet the casework is started even now by a half dozen firms that will be approaching the family within the week for the right to work it. Unless the family has already instigated it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[justinb138 0]

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I bet the casework is started even now by a half dozen firms that will be approaching the family within the week for the right to work it. Unless the family has already instigated it.

Probably. The only good thing I can say about Walmart is that they'll probably take it to court as opposed to just giving them some huge settlement to make them go away like most companies would do.

[sfc 1]

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Once again, "they" are up in arms, raising hate, spewing 'acceptable' racism (afterall, it's against whitey), and blaming the cops for everything.

I'm sick of this crap too. Always blame the cops. It's their fault they guy stole a car, evaded police and then tried to run them over. What's a cop supposed to do; let this guy drive around till he kills someone with a stolen car. Then after he runs out of gas pull him out of the car. IMHO the new guideline are a bunch of BS. Pretty soon all cops will be able to do is hold up their badge and shout "Stop".

Should we give the cops the right to shoot anyone they see commiting a crime?
The problem is that the cops are not judges, they are not the jury, it is not acceptable that they shoot someone "because they deserved it", that is not their job, if they are protecting someone or themselves in immediate danger that is one thing, to shoot because someone 'might' be a danger later is not acceptable.

[justinb138 0]

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Should we give the cops the right to shoot anyone they see commiting a crime?

Only if the person comitting a crime is putting someone else's life in immediate danger. I think trying to run an officer over with a car falls under that category.

[jdhill 0]

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It is sad that the kid lost his life

It's sad that there are 13 year olds stealing cars, but I can't say that I'm sad when I of them gets shot...

Its probably reasonable to tell the cop to try to get out of the way, but to say there needs to be some other threat is a bit too much... how many times does a cop need to dodge the car before its OK to cap the guy?

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Casurf1978 0]

I dont think cops should be judge, jury and executioner. That's insane. They shouldnt use deadly force as a preventative measure, I agree with you. But once that kid tried to run over a cop well what was the officer supposed to do.

[TheBachelor 5]

I see that the family has retained high profile lawyer Johnnie Cochran (of OJ Simpson trail infamy). I'm sure he'll file a 100-million dollar wrongful death lawsuit.

On the other hand, I think the city should bill this kid's mother for the damage to their police car, and the cost of the bullets used.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[Newbie 0]

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Well, maybe if more qualified black aplicants pusued law enforcement careers, and more white kids led police on car chases, maybe youd' get your wish. Until then, it's a matter of numbers, not racism.

As to your UK comment I don't think any department in the US allows shooting from a moving vehicle, and if they do it's not approved for patrol cops.

Most allow shooting at a moving vehicle only if it is being used as a deadly weapon about to cause great bodily harm.

Some allow tire shotting as longas the shooter is stationary (traffic stop circumstances, etc).

Some don't allow pursuits at all (offering a free ride to any perp that runs in a vehicle).

My wish would be this didn't happen in the first place. If you honestly think the life of a young white male and young black male equate to the same thing on the streets of LA, then i think thats quite naive in my opinion, especially when talking about LA and the police - black relations in that city. There are decades of race crimes by police against the black community in LA.

Just to make it clear - i have no problem with a cop shooting someone if it's in defense of their own, or someone elses life.

However, can you explain this:

"Even though the police officers immediately got out of their squad car, moved out of the path of Brown's car and were not in danger of being hit, Garcia fired off 10 rounds, killing the boy."

This is taken from the LA times

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-mack13feb13,0,2499856.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

If this were the case, that they had time to get out, move away from their vehicle and be safe from him backing towards them, how is that justified self defence when they were already safe?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[kmcguffee 0]

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If this were the case, that they had time to get out, move away from their vehicle and be safe from him backing towards them, how is that justified self defence when they were already safe?

He attempted to hit the police officers and possibly kill them. What was to prevent him, at that time, from continuing to try to kill them. He has shown an intent to kill or cause serious injury and he still had the means to do so. Once a person uses deadly force against a police officer or anyone else then they have a right to defend themselves. A car can be just as deadly as a gun. If the kid would have shot at the police officers and they were able to get behind cover without being hit, would you have a problem with them returning fire and kiling the kid then? There is not much difference. Deadly force is deadly force.

You can't expect a cop to take chances like that. This isn't a Hollywood movie and it always looks a lot clearer after the fact. In the middle of a situation like that things are confusing and adrenaline is high. If a person puts themself into a situation like that people have to understand that they may very well be shot and die. If you don't want to get shot then don't put yourself into those situations.

I say tough shit. The officer did what he thought was best in that situation. The officer didn't start it but he ended it without the loss of innocent life. He did a good job.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Gralala 0]

What about the 79 yr old woman who knocked one cop out and separated the shoulder of the other cop when they were arresting her caregiver for "abuse" charges? The news shows were having a field day of these two cops getting beat by the old woman, yet they had to attempt to defend themselves and not injure this old lady in order to avoid lawsuits and publicity? Call me old fashioned but we are so PC these days it makes me sick and the criminals, well they have a hell of a lot more rights than we do.

"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." -- Helen Keller

[Newbie 0]

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He attempted to hit the police officers and possibly kill them.

Really? I thought he had hit a telephone pole and was probably backing his car up to try to get away. Driving recklessly, and/or stealing a car is no justification for being riddled with bullets, im sorry. If it were, you would see hundreds of drunk and reckless drivers being executed on the streets of the US day in day out.

Deadly force is a last resort option (apparently). I'm sorry, but getting out of your car, moving away from it, and being directly out of the line of this moving car does not equate to you being in direct threat of your life. And if you tell me a cop is acting on adrenaline, well that's precisely what their training is supposed to be preventing. Someone with a gun, of all people, should be operating with more clarity than an untrained professional on the streets, and that would amount to being cool calm and collected even in moments of stress.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Trent 0]

You know what they should do? Get rid of all the police persuits, period. They should never chase any criminals. We could just have helicopters follow them until they crashed or got home. Since cars are no longer deadly weapons, you should be fine with some cracked out kid hauling ass in a stolen car through your neighborhood. Think of the money we could save by firing a lot of the traffic cops!!

Oh, hello again!

[Newbie 0]

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You know what they should do? Get rid of all the police persuits, period. They should never chase any criminals. We could just have helicopters follow them until they crashed or got home. Since cars are no longer deadly weapons, you should be fine with some cracked out kid hauling ass in a stolen car through your neighborhood. Think of the money we could save by firing a lot of the traffic cops!!

You may laugh, but this is now common practice in some UK police forces. The only reason someone flees like a maniac for the most part (unless they are seriously strung out on drugs) is to escape the police. Here, where police pusuits have ended in numerous fatalities invovling civilians who "get in the way", officers now routinely get a helicopter to monitor the suspects movement, while the patrol cars take themselves out the equation. Coordination relayed via the helicopter means that the police are on standby, able to be close to the suspects when needed to apprehend them. It's amazing how quickly most suspects i have seen, suddently start to drive normally once they think they have given the cops the slip.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[justinb138 0]

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Deadly force is a last resort option

Yes, and it is also the most effective deterrent from attemping to harm a police officer. Restricting it's use in situations involving a motor vehicle will only encourage criminals to use a car as a deadly weapon.

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And if you tell me a cop is acting on adrenaline, well that's precisely what their training is supposed to be preventing.

I don't think any amount of training is going to take adrenaline out of the equation when someone is trying to kill you.

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Someone with a gun, of all people, should be operating with more clarity than an untrained professional on the streets, and that would amount to being cool calm and collected even in moments of stress.

Agreed.

Honestly, I am questioning the accuracy of this story, as it seems biased.

First line: " Ten days after an officer shot to death a 13-year-old " seems to imply that they police murdered an innocent 13 year old.

Later in the article: "Hundreds of mourners packed a south Los Angeles church Tuesday for Brown's funeral, during which criticism of the police drew applause."

Seems like a bit of police bashing to me, of which the writer of the article seems to agree with.

[Trent 0]

Except for the fact that the police have to chase them long enough to get the helicopter overhead, right? How many people ever escape from a helicopter pursuit? How many from a vehicular pursuit? Probably about the same. Close to zero. The only thing eliminating the persuing police would do is partially eliminate the "joyride" aspect of the chase. In the end, anyone getting into a pursuit scenario, knows they're going to get caught... unless, like you said, they're cracked out on drugs or drunk, in which case they need to be stopped ASAP.

As for the situation in LA... I don't think cops knew they were shooting a 13yo kid. They were trying to stop someone who was putting their lives, and the lives of other civilians at risk. In my opinion, when your bad judgement puts others in immediate danger via criminal activities, you should assume your life is forfeit. Give up or be stopped with extreme prejudice.

Maybe Johnny Cock-Ring will make me feel like a racist scum for feeling that way though. We'll see.

Oh, hello again!

[kmcguffee 0]

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Really? I thought he had hit a telephone pole and was probably backing his car up to try to get away.

That was your assessment of the situation, not the cops. Since you weren't there and it wasn't your life in danger your assessment really means diddly. That is called 20/20 hindsight. The cop didn't have all of the information that we have now and he reacted based on the limited information he had at the time.

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And if you tell me a cop is acting on adrenaline, well that's precisely what their training is supposed to be preventing.

Training doesn't prevent you from getting exciting and adrenaline pumping. In a high stress situation you react like you are trained if that training has become second nature. It doesn't prevent you from being excited.

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Someone with a gun, of all people, should be operating with more clarity than an untrained professional on the streets, and that would amount to being cool calm and collected even in moments of stress.

You've been watching too many John Wayne movies. I've been doing this type of thing for a fairly long time. It doesn't work like that. The clarity is the same. The trained person reacts like he has been trained. The untrained person has no training to fall back on. That is the only difference. They don't have time to sit down and analyze the situation. They react.

What you are doing is like someone who has never jumped from a plane criticizing you for how you reacted during a malfunction. They just don't get it and won't until they have been in a similar situation.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Newbie 0]

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Yes, and it is also the most effective deterrent from attemping to harm a police officer. Restricting it's use in situations involving a motor vehicle will only encourage criminals to use a car as a deadly weapon.

I have already said, if a cop is in genuine fear of his/her life, or that of a civilian, be that from a guy at the wheelf of a car or weilding a ski, take them out. Restricting the use of a gun until someone shoots at you out of a car window as they try to mow you and innocents down, is ridiculous.

However, deadly force is a last resort. It's not meant to be a deterrent. Pepper spray and a nightstick are deterrents. A bullet coming at you is not going to deter you from anything, it is going to kill you. Someone should know they have done something seriously wrong before they are shot. I don't think a 13 year old kid, out on a joyride, reversing, probably unable to see the rear view mirror or behind him should expect to be taken out, especially when he was not, in that moment, putting anyones life in danger.
Sure the kid did something wrong. Sure he deserved to be punished. No one is doubting that. Had the officers been in genuine threat for their lives, i don't think there would be an issue here, whether this kid was 13 or 7. At the end of the day, as has been reported, they were out of harms way and should have looked to contain the situation, not act as judge, jury and executioner in a situation that i don; think (and i could well be wrong, the investigation will soon tell) was the definition of "life threatening".

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts