mnealtx 0
QuoteThe election of a puppet government is futile
Fact check
define puppet gov't and show facts to support that is what is happening.
QuoteRemember, this is a Gihad against a religion, not a country - at least that is their perception which is what is important to them.
It is a very small number causing trouble. The Iraqis are getting better everyday, They have been holding their own. I do find it odd you so ez cast away 1st hand accounts of what's going on. Perhaps it is because it does not agree with you.
"The election of a puppet government is futile"
The election of a "puppet" government continues in the long standing tradition both of the Coalition (Germany - 1919 & 1945, Japan - 1945, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc...) and also in the tradition of Iraq, which moved from no nationhood to colonial government to Monarchy under any spare minor royal lying around Europe to dictatorships!
Government & Democracy are largely a matter of confidence & habit - particularly in the less developed & better armed countries!
The real function of this Iraqi Government is to bring stability to the country, restore services, and improve the standard of living for the ordinary Iraqi - for which it'll take as much foreign help as it needs. Hopefully this gives the Iraqi people some confidence back in their country, which in turn reinforces their faith in Democracy & Government thus allowing the government to do more.
It's gatting the "upward spiral" started and established that's important. Contented people do not turn to radical politics.
Mike.
Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.
Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
The election of a "puppet" government continues in the long standing tradition both of the Coalition (Germany - 1919 & 1945, Japan - 1945, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc...) and also in the tradition of Iraq, which moved from no nationhood to colonial government to Monarchy under any spare minor royal lying around Europe to dictatorships!
Government & Democracy are largely a matter of confidence & habit - particularly in the less developed & better armed countries!
The real function of this Iraqi Government is to bring stability to the country, restore services, and improve the standard of living for the ordinary Iraqi - for which it'll take as much foreign help as it needs. Hopefully this gives the Iraqi people some confidence back in their country, which in turn reinforces their faith in Democracy & Government thus allowing the government to do more.
It's gatting the "upward spiral" started and established that's important. Contented people do not turn to radical politics.
Mike.
Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.
Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
mnealtx 0
Well said, Mike - hopefully this is the start of better things for the Iraqui people.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
crozby 0
QuoteThe election of a puppet government is futile, especially considering we will have to maintain it for decades or the Muslim insurgents will restiore the disorder. Remember, this is a Gihad against a religion, not a country - at least that is their perception which is what is important to them.
A turnout at 60% kind of implies the Iraqi people disagree with you on this one.
In terms of turnout and the low number of deaths and injuries on the day, this election was a resounding success.
The only fly in the ointment might be the very low Sunni turnout if early figures are to be believed.
Hopefully the solidarity generated by the knowledge that so many fellow Iraqis voted will increase resolve within Iraq to stop the insurgancy, making for a swifter exit for the coallition forces.
(edited to shange Shia to Sunni)
skydyvr 0
Ok, all you L00ZER Bush bashers can come out of the woodwork now and concede YOU WERE WRONG about the Iraqi elections. Step on up and say a few words, it'll make you feel better.
Your numbers are many, and your silence is defeaning and repugnant. You know who you are, and so do the rest of us.
Really, it'll only hurt at first. Come on, repeat after me: God Bless America! All together now: God bless America! One more time: America did a GOOD thing!
. . =(_8^(1)
Your numbers are many, and your silence is defeaning and repugnant. You know who you are, and so do the rest of us.
Really, it'll only hurt at first. Come on, repeat after me: God Bless America! All together now: God bless America! One more time: America did a GOOD thing!
. . =(_8^(1)
crozby 0
QuoteCome on, repeat after me: God Bless America! All together now: God bless America! One more time: America did a GOOD thing!
I doubt very much that God will be blessing America if he's heard about this little nugget:
QuoteThe BBC's File On 4 programme has learnt that out of over $20bn raised in oil revenues during US-led rule, the use of $8.8bn is unaccounted for.
US government auditors criticise the Coalition Provisional Authority for failing to manage the money properly.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/file_on_4/4216853.stm
Makes the UN look like rank amateurs...
wmw999 2,588
QuoteOk, all you L00ZER Bush bashers can come out of the woodwork now and concede YOU WERE WRONG about the Iraqi elections. Step on up and say a few words, it'll make you feel better.
Does it make you feel more important to call names? Smarter somehow? Suave and cool?
Actually, speaking as one of dz.com's official Bush bashers, I don't think I ever said anything about the Iraqi elections; I had nothing but hope that they'd go better than expected. Kind of like the Afghani ones.
I still think we went in there and crapped all over their country at a large cost to ours. We'll be paying for a long time on the debt we've incurred, both financial and in reputation for having invaded another nation under the reason of WMD that turned out not to be there.
There are a lot of nations with bad leaders. It's not our fucking job to take them all on, even if they piss us off.
Now, please go back to your liberal-bashing. Calling people names is a really good way to get them to engage in an intelligent dialog (not). Unless, of course, you really don't care about the dialog, and just like calling people names.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
"Ok, all you L00ZER Bush bashers can come out of the woodwork now and concede YOU WERE WRONG about the Iraqi elections. Step on up and say a few words, it'll make you feel better.
Your numbers are many, and your silence is defeaning and repugnant. You know who you are, and so do the rest of us. "
Hehe, I'll bite.
Free elections in a free Iraq are a good thing, I was pleased to see them being conducted without the stress that was expected.
Whether the end justifies the means, well I guess we could discuss that for a while yet.
"America did a GOOD thing!"
No we didn't (by 'we' I mean the coalition), but we achieved a good goal.
edit:---yes to everything Wendy said.
Your numbers are many, and your silence is defeaning and repugnant. You know who you are, and so do the rest of us. "
Hehe, I'll bite.
Free elections in a free Iraq are a good thing, I was pleased to see them being conducted without the stress that was expected.
Whether the end justifies the means, well I guess we could discuss that for a while yet.
"America did a GOOD thing!"
No we didn't (by 'we' I mean the coalition), but we achieved a good goal.
edit:---yes to everything Wendy said.
--------------------
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
"Calling people names is a really good way to get them to engage in an intelligent dialog (not). Unless, of course, you really don't care about the dialog, and just like calling people names."
I wholeheartedly agree. Aren't we all here to discuss stuff. We both learn and are learned from. The folk here may disagree fundamentally on many issues... but let's keep it constructive and not lose our sense of humour, OK.
Mike.
Edited to respond to NacMacFeegle's "Hehe. I'll Bite"
Hasn't your vet given you something to stop you biting?
Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.
Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
I wholeheartedly agree. Aren't we all here to discuss stuff. We both learn and are learned from. The folk here may disagree fundamentally on many issues... but let's keep it constructive and not lose our sense of humour, OK.
Mike.
Edited to respond to NacMacFeegle's "Hehe. I'll Bite"
Hasn't your vet given you something to stop you biting?
Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.
Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.
skydyvr 0
QuoteDoes it make you feel more important to call names? Smarter somehow? Suave and cool?
No, not important, smart, or even cool. I am none of the above. Just buying myself a laugh at the silence being perpetrated by most of the Bush basher crowd. They usually make a LOT of noise, but not in the last two days. You'd think they all came down with something.
QuoteActually, speaking as one of dz.com's official Bush bashers, I don't think I ever said anything about the Iraqi elections; I had nothing but hope that they'd go better than expected. Kind of like the Afghani ones.
I know you posted a note the other day expressing hope that the elections went well, but most didn't even say that. Most had a pessimistic view of the outcome which, in my mind, indicates the desires of their hearts: failure of America's efforts here at any cost.
QuoteI still think we went in there and crapped all over their country at a large cost to ours.
Look ahead 20 years; now turn around and look back at the history. Do you think your summary above will still apply then? I don't. I think most of the pessimism is short-sighted partisan crap, and that history will actually deem this as a very sweet event overall. We'll see.
QuoteThere are a lot of nations with bad leaders. It's not our fucking job to take them all on, even if they piss us off.
Before the war, before hindsight was available, a LOT of politicians on both side of the aile and worldwide saw SH as a threat that needed to be dealt with. Well, Bush did something about it, and finally something postitive has come out of it. I'm sure you hope the trend continues, but I wouldn't guess most of your counterparts here feel the same way.
QuoteUnless, of course, you really don't care about the dialog, and just like calling people names.
Here, and now, I don't give a hoot about the dialog -- just enjoying thumbing my nose at the Bush bashers.
. . =(_8^(1)
skydyvr 0
Quotebut let's keep it constructive and not lose our sense of humour, OK.
Calling out the L00SER Bush bashers is the closest I get to having a sense of humor.
. . =(_8^(1)
rhino 0
QuoteThere are a lot of nations with bad leaders. It's not our fucking job to take them all on, even if they piss us off.
I agree... UNLESS they have ballistic, nuclear missliles that can hit us... Do we let them get the missiles THEN act? Or stop them in the process? This is the problem we face..
skydyvr 0
QuoteUS government auditors criticise the Coalition Provisional Authority for failing to manage the money properly.
Well, we'll just have to see what comes out of that.
Meanwhile, I must commend you for unabashedly taking a swing at the US in this fine hour -- hypocrisy must not be your strong suit.
. . =(_8^(1)
wmw999 2,588
Quoteindicates the desires of their hearts: failure of America's efforts here at any cost.
There are probably a few who feel that way. The vast majority (some of whom I know) don't feel that way at all.
They think we were wrong wrong wrong to prioritize the invasion of Iraq over so many things. Being human, there's a piece that sees the consequences of what they see as a bad decision.
But no-one wishes ill to the Iraqis. Well, except for the glass parking lot crowd, but I have a feeling that's just words. (edit to add -- the glass parking lot crowd tend to be a little less liberal than some)
We've fucked our budget and deficit for a long long time. We're spending money way past our credit limit as a country, and calling it good that we can have the things we need. That sounds like those ads for high-interest low-limit credit cards for people who can't manage debt that you see on late-night TV -- "You too can have the credit you deserve..."
Somehow, someway, we as a country are going to have to pay that debt. No, not all of it -- we've always had a national debt. But the number is frightening now, and there are signs all over that the world doesn't view us as the economic leaders they once did. We stand a chance of becoming the next big-company-gone-under, and then we'll have to reinvent ourselves.
Our position as an economic leader is based on the surrounding community, not on our own statements of such. A world economy is in part a cooperative system, not just a competitive one. Which means that we have to cooperate on others' terms sometimes, too.
Personally, I think we'll get farther if we do cooperate on mutual terms, and not always trying to dictate our terms. Because then we won't be the kings of the mountain, and the target of every little David who wants to be the one to slay Goliath.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
QuoteIt's a gut-wrenching dillema for the naysayers.
On one hand, in their hearts, the possible democratization and freedom of millions of Iraqis might be a good thing. Maybe. Sort of.
On the other hand, to accomplish this will require ttat Bush be given credit for having done something right.
Can you explain this a bit better? I have no problem appreciating and cheering the election turnout without giving Bush credit for having done the right thing.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
03CLS 0
QuoteOk, all you L00ZER Bush bashers can come out of the woodwork now and concede YOU WERE WRONG about the Iraqi elections. Step on up and say a few words, it'll make you feel better.
Your numbers are many, and your silence is defeaning and repugnant. You know who you are, and so do the rest of us.
Really, it'll only hurt at first. Come on, repeat after me: God Bless America! All together now: God bless America! One more time: America did a GOOD thing!
I think the election was a great thing!
. But the BUSH LOVERS take the since were there additude and haven't really come up with a valid reason as to why we went there in the first place and I'm still waiting.
Again I like Bush except for this Iraqi Thing.
Do I think Iraq going to Democracy govt. was worth the American and allied troops that lost their lives.......NO
Afganistan is one thing Iraq was something different.
Michele 1
QuoteThe election of a puppet government is futile, especially considering we will have to maintain it for decades or the Muslim insurgents will restiore the disorder.
How did the Iraqis elect a puppet government? Do you know (without googling, if you can) what the newly elected government has been elected to do? When the next elections are? What the purpose of this election was? Do you know how the ballots were written? Presented? What about the balloting places? How many people/parties were on the ballot?
QuoteRemember, this is a Gihad against a religion, not a country - at least that is their perception which is what is important to them.
Jihad has been declared via fatwahs for a long, long time. Which perception of the Iraqi people has been affected by the elections in a negative way?
Frankly, one could see this as a significant battle in Jihad, which the terrorists lost hands down. Iraq is moving towards autonomy, self rule, and democracy...and the terrorists were handily defeated by the Iraqis with the simple, vital action of casting a ballot and voting for their choice of candidates.
QuoteAlso, being there, if you truly are, gives you a firsthand perspective of the events, but the politics can easily escape you as you are right in the midst of it - if you are. A NASA worker doesn't become a rocket scientist simply because he/she works on the Space Shuttle.
I never claimed to be there. GQJumper is there. So are several other people who post here. I fail to see how they, being there in the middle of things, do not know far more about some aspects of the conflict than you or I, sitting in our living rooms, typing away at the computer. Their insight is invaluable, and should be seen as such, rather than denigrating their position, and challenging their integrity (as you have repeatedly). You do not know everything about the subject...learning from all angles is a pretty useful habit to acquire.
QuoteI think of the troops over there as heros.
Do you really? Then why challenge if they're there or not? By challenging them the way you have, it seems to me that you are casting doubt on their integrity and their honesty...and that's not something I do with people I consider heros.
I'm still not seeing why this election was bad. And I suppose it's what was said already; there's no real way to spin this negatively to bash Bush and the US.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
well, I opposed the invasion of Iraq.
But that doesn't change the fact that I am happy when things turn out well. I was happy when Uday & Qusay were taken out, I was happy when Saddam was captured, and I am happy about the elections.
Why wouldn't I be happy when every once in a while, something good comes out of all this????
The way I see it, the only way now is forward. We cannot undo the past. We have to be pragmatic and make the best of things as they are NOW.
So the elections weren't perfect. What's to be gained by whining? As I stated in another thread, the future of Iraq has to begin SOMEWHERE. These elections were to select an interim president & council to draw up a constitution. It's not all over, but you have to take a first step somehow.
A lot of the people who are whining and detracting are not proposing solutions that can be put in place now, they are just complaining about what shouldn't have happened two years ago.
Well, guess what. This is 2005, not 2003. We have to make decisions about this based on where we are now, not where we were back then.
Let's just move forward with an attitude towards making this work.
But that doesn't change the fact that I am happy when things turn out well. I was happy when Uday & Qusay were taken out, I was happy when Saddam was captured, and I am happy about the elections.
Why wouldn't I be happy when every once in a while, something good comes out of all this????
The way I see it, the only way now is forward. We cannot undo the past. We have to be pragmatic and make the best of things as they are NOW.
So the elections weren't perfect. What's to be gained by whining? As I stated in another thread, the future of Iraq has to begin SOMEWHERE. These elections were to select an interim president & council to draw up a constitution. It's not all over, but you have to take a first step somehow.
A lot of the people who are whining and detracting are not proposing solutions that can be put in place now, they are just complaining about what shouldn't have happened two years ago.
Well, guess what. This is 2005, not 2003. We have to make decisions about this based on where we are now, not where we were back then.
Let's just move forward with an attitude towards making this work.
Speed Racer
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dorbie 0
Quotewell, I opposed the invasion of Iraq.
But that doesn't change the fact that I am happy when things turn out well. I was happy when Uday & Qusay were taken out, I was happy when Saddam was captured, and I am happy about the elections.
Why wouldn't I be happy when every once in a while, something good comes out of all this????
The way I see it, the only way now is forward. We cannot undo the past. We have to be pragmatic and make the best of things as they are NOW.
So the elections weren't perfect. What's to be gained by whining? As I stated in another thread, the future of Iraq has to begin SOMEWHERE. These elections were to select an interim president & council to draw up a constitution. It's not all over, but you have to take a first step somehow.
A lot of the people who are whining and detracting are not proposing solutions that can be put in place now, they are just complaining about what shouldn't have happened two years ago.
Well, guess what. This is 2005, not 2003. We have to make decisions about this based on where we are now, not where we were back then.
Let's just move forward with an attitude towards making this work.
Bloody well said. I can respect this position from anyone opposed to the war in the first place. I can't understand the detractors working against the current developments hoping to clutch defeat, pessimism & ruin from the jaws of success. What's said by broadcast organisations & nations (and to an almost negligible degree individuals) affects the outcome here.
So, that is what is being printed, here, in the USA, I wonder, what is being printed / said in other nations??
Dont get me wrong, I think this is G R E A T but, I also, have come to know, that the press in this country MAY be influenced in what they write.
I personally hope it is going as well as is being reported as I am PISSED that we are there A G A I N. I think WE should have been allowed to finish what we started the first time and then, there would not be 1400+ U S servince men dead THIS time.
Good luck to the Iraqi citizens and God bless our troops.
Scott (the civilian
formerly of the 82nd ABN div & 3 ID, (dont question my loyalties please)
Dont get me wrong, I think this is G R E A T but, I also, have come to know, that the press in this country MAY be influenced in what they write.
I personally hope it is going as well as is being reported as I am PISSED that we are there A G A I N. I think WE should have been allowed to finish what we started the first time and then, there would not be 1400+ U S servince men dead THIS time.
Good luck to the Iraqi citizens and God bless our troops.
Scott (the civilian
formerly of the 82nd ABN div & 3 ID, (dont question my loyalties please)
mikkey 0
QuoteSo, that is what is being printed, here, in the USA, I wonder, what is being printed / said in other nations??
Dont get me wrong, I think this is G R E A T but, I also, have come to know, that the press in this country MAY be influenced in what they write.
I personally hope it is going as well as is being reported as I am PISSED that we are there A G A I N. I think WE should have been allowed to finish what we started the first time and then, there would not be 1400+ U S servince men dead THIS time.
Good luck to the Iraqi citizens and God bless our troops.
Scott (the civilian
formerly of the 82nd ABN div & 3 ID, (dont question my loyalties please)
This article in The Washington Post tells about reactions in the Arab press:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51954-2005Jan31.html
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.
PhreeZone 20
Quote
How did the Iraqis elect a puppet government? Do you know (without googling, if you can) what the newly elected government has been elected to do? When the next elections are?
Easy questions even with out googling if you pay any attention at all to any of the major media here. (Recent benifit of working out at the gym for 2 hours a night is I can catch 4 major newscasts nightly if I choose to)
The Provisional government is elected to draft the Iraqi constitution and to submit it back to the people by September for ratification. How they shape their government will determine the whole shape of the next election. They could chose to go for a structure similar to the US, or they may go for a structure similar to the Brits with each of the major parties having a large voice, but allowing the minor groups a token rep. They will determine the entire shape and stability of the future of Iraq.
Taxes, national defense, jobs.... all this is on the plate of the National Authority and they have less then a year to do the job too. No small task at all.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
That's easy, Michele... it doesn't make Bush or the U.S. look bad...that's what they're griping about, in a nutshell.
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
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