Could Auschwitz have been stopped.

[miked10270 0]

"Concentration camps in which 25000 Afrikaaner women and children died of typhoid, dysentry and starvation during the 2nd South African war just 28 years before the Nazi's had the same idea."

Not the proudest moment in our glorious empire's history...

But I'd like to differentiate between the disgustingly mismanaged camps of The Boer Wars and the deliberate killing of undesirables.

It's a matter if GROSS incompetence Vs MALICE!

Anyway, to answer my own question:

I've given this a lot of thought since I originally posted the question of area bombing the camps Vs. Leaving them to operate. I WOULD have area bombed the camps and accepted the killing of the inmates for the following reasons:

1. In attacking the camps I am destroying the infrastructure of the killing machine. Razed Gas Chambers, Crematoria & railway marshalling yards will take time to replace. Destroyed huts will reduce the camp capacity.

2. There were war factories adjacent to the camps which were staffed by camp inmates. In killing the camp inmates I am attacking a far more concentrated population of workers than when attacking cities.

3. (and this is the only reason based on knowledge of how the camps are run) The life expectancy of a camp inmate was less than 2 months. If I could put a camp out of operation for longer than 1 months then it would numerically justify killing ALL the inmates in the camp at the time of the raid in that overall, less people would have died!

So yes... INstead of hitting Cologne or Schweinfurt again I WOULD have planned heavy raids on the death camps.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Tonto 1]

Quite correct.

You got me by a year.

"The Spaniards used them in Cuba during the Spanish-American War (1898), and the British established them for thousands of women and children during the Boer War (1899-1902) in South Africa."

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

I have read where some camps where bombed, but I do not think it was common. Despite the use of slave labor, most of the German war machine was still built by private companies(and most of these companies are still around-I even own a Krups coffee pot) located in industrial areas and bombing these areas would do more to end the war and save American lives. What happened was a nightmare, but I would not have changed any bombing missions. After a few months of bombing, it was decided to start bombing from 5k and lower....this worked much better for the bombs but sucked for the planes and crew!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[vmsfreaky1 0]

Post deleted, and consider this your one warning. From the rules:

- Personal attacks and hate posts will not be tolerated in any forum.
- Posts that contain material that we deem to be blatantly or unnecessarily racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, pornographic, or otherwise offensive, will be removed.

[falxori 0]

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its just dead jews right?

Whats the problem?

what are you trying to say?


and back to the question.
the auschwitz area was very industrial and many factories there were related to the war effort, and they were bombed (at least in early 1944)
and as for the claim that bombing it wouldnt have made a difference, here's something to consider:
in one of the bombings of nearby factories, on one of the bomb runs they missed and actually hit the death camp. it destroyed one of the 4 gas chambers (#4 if i remember right).
this gas chamber was NEVER rebuilt.

so at least for several months they could have reached it easily (they were already bombing nearby). considering that 12,000 human beings were killed there every day, well, you do the math...

being jewish and having lost many of my family members there, i'm torn between the feeling that more should and could have been done and the basic fact that without the allied forces, i wouldn't have been here.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[marcandalysse 0]

real funny guy....what is your point, really?

i like irony and dark humor but your 2 lines don't show either.

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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what are you trying to say?

I'm trying to say im sick and tired of the double standard on this board!!!

It seems it's ok to be a racist when your talking about arabs, but the minute you replace jew with arab, all hell breaks loose.

I was angry about another arab bashing thread and I responded here with the same regard for jews as is shown for arabs on this board.

So there got it?

[marcandalysse 0]

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I was angry about another arab bashing thread and I responded here with the same regard for jews as is shown for arabs on this board.

genocide....no matter what group is targeted....is about as low as humans can get.

With your statement, you are showing your contempt for jews, not for the other posters who you disagree with. Say what you will (within the rules of this forum) about those who state equally stupid opinions, but please leave my family/religious cohort/tribe out of it.

think before posting please.

[billvon 3,092]

>It seems it's ok to be a racist when your talking about arabs, but
>the minute you replace jew with arab, all hell breaks loose.

From the rules:
-----------------------
Posts that contain material that we deem to be blatantly or unnecessarily racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, pornographic, or otherwise offensive, will be removed.
-----------------------

If you see a post that you feel meets such criteria, PM a moderator and we will take a look.

[falxori 0]

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If you see a post that you feel meets such criteria, PM a moderator and we will take a look

here's one for you...
i don't like pulling the racism card, and thats why i asked him what his meaning was.

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its just dead jews right?

Whats the problem?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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I'm trying to say im sick and tired of the double standard on this board!!!

It seems it's ok to be a racist when your talking about arabs, but the minute you replace jew with arab, all hell breaks loose.

I was angry about another arab bashing thread and I responded here with the same regard for jews as is shown for arabs on this board.

So there got it?

sorry, no. i don't get it (just a stupid jew, i guess ).
if you're talking about the noble list post, i didn't get your post there either (especially because it was completely wrong, as several people have pointed out).
that list is a fact, the conclusions are subjective. as i said there, i don't like that list and i don't think it leads to one set of genes being better than another.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[DexterBase 1]

Assuming the following to be true:

1. The rails are situated in a way that a single, well executed attack can prevent the shipping of people by rail to the extermination camp for an extended period of time.

2. The attack, if successful, will save thousand of lives.

3. The parachute technology exists to drop a team of men in a small area to successfully link up and carry out the attack.

4. The mission would be masked by a larger bomber overflight mission to hide the fact that we were being inserted.

5. There was an evasion and egress plan in place with at least some degree of possible success.

I would volunteer for that mission. You wouldn't need to carpet bomb a camp. A single precision demolition of a bridge or tunnel could disable a railroad long enough to prevent thousands of casualties.

If necessary, you could conduct several identical operations simultaneously.

This would save bombs, which were needed much more elsewhere, and it wouldn't take that many troops (in the bigger picture of how many troops were being killed/objective taken).

I'm sure if you could get a brief together detailing what was going on in the camps and the benefit to so many people by attacking the railroads, you wouldn't have a hard time finding enough volunteers for that mission. I think that even without requirement #5 you'd get the volunteers you'd need.

Any thoughts?

[miked10270 0]

It's a lovely idea, but... We're talking 1941 - 1944 here.

1. Railway lines are easily repaired. Where rail lines were blown by SOE or the Jedburghs in France it was with the intent of derailing a train, NEVER to close a line.

2. The camps are in the heart of the reich & only in range of large bombers flying at altitude. HALO is still 15 years in the future.

3. There is no reliable information on the existence of an effective resistance group in situ to offer support.

4. The Soviets are also anti-semitic so cannot be relied on for any support.

5. An arms drop into the camp was considered (to facilitate an armed uprising) but was rejected primarily because it was unlikely that even armed & reinforced with trained troops the camp inmates would be unable to resist effectively for any length of time! In effect it would be a suicide mission with no gain.

As I said before, the "extermination" camps were outwith the range of precision bombing until late 1944 / early 1945 (by which time they had ceased operation) so the choice is area-bomb or ignore!

Incidentally, area bombing is likely to cost you 60 - 90 bombers & trained crews out of a 1,000 bomber raid (numbers based on the need to use B-24s & the distance over enemy territory).

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Even if it was possible... no one believed the reports they heard... I mean - seriously who would? The concept of putting of thousands of people do death per day using industrial processes is beyond belief... no wonder it took the actual liberation of the camps for people to actually realize it was all true.

If the Allies didn't believe things on that scale were happening why would they allocate resources to it... even if they had resources to allocate?



Anyone else been to Auschwitz? I went years ago when I lived in Poland. The family dog wouldn’t get out of the back of the car. This huge great Alsatian just cowered in the car shaking… was really odd. My mother put it down to some kind of sixth sense… I don’t have an answer.

When we visited my mother was pregnant with my little sister. She had provisionally picked out the name Hannah if she was a girl. At Auschwitz there are rooms filled with people’s luggage, great mounds of spectacles shoes, clothes etc. One of the suitcases had the name “Hannah [my family name]” written on it. That was the point my mother abandoned the idea of calling my sister Hannah, as she would have always remembered that suitcase and the fate that befell its owner, and my sisters namesake.

I'll have to go back there at some point...

[falxori 0]

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Even if it was possible... no one believed the reports they heard... I mean - seriously who would?

right. even for the jewish community here in israel, it took some time to accept the facts. but by 1944, they could reach it (they did nearby factories) and they knew it was for real (aerial pictures).

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Anyone else been to Auschwitz?

I have.
even when you know all the facts, and stand on this cursed ground, its hard to imagine what happened there.
especially when everything is green and quiet...

what will happen in 50-100 years, when there are no more survivors and the camp itself will be ruined?

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[christelsabine 1]

Anyone else been to Auschwitz?

[mikkey 0]

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Anyone else been to Auschwitz?

Yes. And at Struthoff, too.

Will never go there again. Too hard to stand.

[christelsabine 1]

I have been to a couple of camps (but not Auschwitz) and it is a very useful and shocking learning experience. Everyone who can do so should. It made me become an opponent against any form of bigotry - no matter against who. Some SC posters with only thinly disguised racism against other cultures and religions should take a tour.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Anyone else been to Auschwitz

Yes as well as Dachau.

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The saddest part is how little people seem to have learned in the passing years. Genocide still happens. People still look upon others as less worthy, less human, and then they act on their worst impulses.

We cannot bring back those who suffered and perished at places like this, but we should at least honor their memory by resolving never to allow tradgedies like this to be repeated again. The camp at Dachau and the other preserved death camps are not fitting memorials; a fitting memorial would be a world free of this sort of hatred. How sad that we haven't built it yet.

~Frank Wortner~

I couldn't agree more.
Visiting the camps was the most traumatic emotional experience I can recall.

[falxori 0]

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Finally, I am a German ...

you know, i believe the lesson of "never again" was learned much better in germany then in other places (poland, austria, ukraine, etc).

i could be wrong but i think germans have accepted the responsibility where others who happily assisted the nazis were never required to.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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The saddest part is how little people seem to have learned in the passing years. Genocide still happens. People still look upon others as less worthy, less human, and then they act on their worst impulses.

yeap, and sadly, it seems to be part of human nature. we all have the same defect at some level.

one important thing that is different in this genocide (not that other examples are less horrific) is that it wasn't a fight about land (like bosnia, ruwanda) or culture (the german jews were living a german lifestyle).
it was simply a cold decision that some people do not deserve to live (gypsies, blacks, jews and who knows who would have been next...)
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[DexterBase 1]

I think if one is not in a position financially to visit actual camps, they could visit the holocaust museum in D.C. That may give them at least some idea.

[Nightingale 0]

the museum of tolerance in los angeles is also a good place to go.