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JohnRich 4
Quoteany soldier that kills someone froma direct order is not resposable for that killing, who is giving the initial orders here? thousands are dead from his decisions.
President Bush has ordered no unjustifiable killings.
How many Iraqiis died wrongly under Sadam Hussein's reign? Would you have prefered that he remain in power so that he could continue his killing?
JohnRich 4
QuoteYou can vicarious logic to extremes, which you have done here, and make all kinds of assertions. Let's see, you paid taxes during the Clinton years, therefore you were partly to blame for Clinton's blowjob.
Yep, that's the kind of logic being used to call Bush a "murderer". Pretty darned silly, eh?
JohnRich 4
QuoteI am Christel from Germany... living in a (war-) free country. 60 or more years ago...
Perhaps you have been war-free since 1945 only because we kicked Hitler's ass and installed a democratic government and prosperity in your country.
The other major war nation we defeated, Japan, is also now one of the world's free economic superpowers.
Don't the people of Iraqi deserve the same chance?
bigway 4
President Bush is not killing saddam hussein! he is killing innocent people in a country that he does not belong in. He is killing people who are trying to defend there country from the americans.
Will America ever realise that america are not the good guys to all countries? will america ever let people think that and not kill them?
America are the bad guys when it comes to the iraq war, all the people are doing in iraq are trying to kill americans. If any nation came to my country and killed my innocent family members i would fight them back.
Your country had invaded a country and now they are fighting back...they are not wrong, but america is wrong for being there. They are not welcome there and they have caused alot of deaths for a mistake in intelligence. Now can you leave the country alone...What have they done to you?
What have the people of iraq done wrong?
Why do the people of iraq deserve to have american troops in their country killing their citizens?
John, please without getting pissed at my thoughts, could you please give me a straight answer to those questions.
I honestly do not know what the reasoning is, maybe with your answers i can look at it in a different way. I would love you to answer those two questions so i can understand why people think it is right.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Will America ever realise that america are not the good guys to all countries? will america ever let people think that and not kill them?
America are the bad guys when it comes to the iraq war, all the people are doing in iraq are trying to kill americans. If any nation came to my country and killed my innocent family members i would fight them back.
Your country had invaded a country and now they are fighting back...they are not wrong, but america is wrong for being there. They are not welcome there and they have caused alot of deaths for a mistake in intelligence. Now can you leave the country alone...What have they done to you?
What have the people of iraq done wrong?
Why do the people of iraq deserve to have american troops in their country killing their citizens?
John, please without getting pissed at my thoughts, could you please give me a straight answer to those questions.
I honestly do not know what the reasoning is, maybe with your answers i can look at it in a different way. I would love you to answer those two questions so i can understand why people think it is right.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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JohnRich 4
QuoteJohn, please without getting pissed at my thoughts, could you please give me a straight answer to those questions.
I suggest you spend some time reading-up on the history of what went on in Iraq during the regime of Hussein.
Since you are from New Zealand, perhaps you can tell us what right you have to live there, since your ancestors invaded the island and took the land by force away from the native Maori. Isn't that the same thing of which you are accusing the U.S. in Iraq?
bigway 4
i did not realise america is invading iraq in a way to live there?
Well not i can not explain that, it is a whole other thread but it was 160 years ago.
John, i live in the UK. I am from new zealand and my ancestors are from the uk, and my family migrated there 50 years ago. Now, new zealand does not have people killing people for no reason. I have read lots about saddam but my question was relating to that saddam is not there anymore so why are you still there killing people.
I am not trying to argue, and i will not argue your reply to me, i am just looking for a reply that will let me see what your view is. I will not argue your view, i truley just want to know why some people think it is okay for americans to be in iraq on this day. I am not going to say you are wrong or right as i do not know. I have my opinion from what i know, not from what you know. If you can tell me why you guys are there, i will be a step closer to knowing what you know. I dont want you to think you have to defend your country to me, just enlighten me please.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Well not i can not explain that, it is a whole other thread but it was 160 years ago.
John, i live in the UK. I am from new zealand and my ancestors are from the uk, and my family migrated there 50 years ago. Now, new zealand does not have people killing people for no reason. I have read lots about saddam but my question was relating to that saddam is not there anymore so why are you still there killing people.
I am not trying to argue, and i will not argue your reply to me, i am just looking for a reply that will let me see what your view is. I will not argue your view, i truley just want to know why some people think it is okay for americans to be in iraq on this day. I am not going to say you are wrong or right as i do not know. I have my opinion from what i know, not from what you know. If you can tell me why you guys are there, i will be a step closer to knowing what you know. I dont want you to think you have to defend your country to me, just enlighten me please.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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slug 1
QuoteQuoteI am Christel from Germany... living in a (war-) free country. 60 or more years ago...
Perhaps you have been war-free since 1945 only because we kicked Hitler's ass and installed a democratic government and prosperity in your country.
The other major war nation we defeated, Japan, is also now one of the world's free economic superpowers.
Don't the people of Iraqi deserve the same chance?
John
Please explain what you mean by "we". are you saying USA?
The fact that the leader of germany at the time was
and started a war on two fronts may have had something to with "we" (Were you there john?) winng WW2.
The "coalition of the willing" including the US defeated Germany.
R.I.P.
rhys 0
not if they were following an order. the person who makes the order is responsanble. and if they don't follow the order they are punished!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
rhys 0
aaaaah actually you should re read the history books yourself!
new zealand was colonised by the english, yes there were wars. the maori were very good at war and taught the westeners a thing or two(invented trench warfare) but came to an agreement in the end and now have a treaty(the treaty of waitangi). racism is not very abundant here as it is in the U.S. the news presenters greet the country in maori every day and we have to learn maori at school. what do we know of the american natives? too much because the U.S. don't give a damn about them!
new zealand was colonised by the english, yes there were wars. the maori were very good at war and taught the westeners a thing or two(invented trench warfare) but came to an agreement in the end and now have a treaty(the treaty of waitangi). racism is not very abundant here as it is in the U.S. the news presenters greet the country in maori every day and we have to learn maori at school. what do we know of the american natives? too much because the U.S. don't give a damn about them!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix
Kennedy 0
Apparently someone has never heard of Nuremberg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Defense
Personal Responsibility - It's like vegetables; you may not like it, but it's good for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Defense
Personal Responsibility - It's like vegetables; you may not like it, but it's good for you.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
***Quoteany soldier that kills someone froma direct order is not resposable for that killing, who is giving the initial orders here? thousands are dead from his decisions.
is it murder if those thousands being killed are enemy soldiers, and terrorists, a murder is an unlawful killing, killing the enemy in combat is not unlawful, anymore pathetic excuses to jutify your case?
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
[ He is killing people who are trying to defend there country from the americans.
the insurgents are not trying to defend their country against americans. please do a little bit of research into the current situation before you make statements like this.
The majority of the insurgents are coming from other countries to fight the americans hence the title insurgent. we are not fighting people trying to liberate themselves this is an insurgency, and these people aren't fighting americans because they think we are trying to take over. they are fighting to prevent what we are trying to bring. a democratic coutnry into the middle east. they want their power in the government they see a country in a weakened state due to the change of power currently taking place. so they are attacking, not just americans, but the people of this country trying to make a difference. there are iraqi police officers now who volunteered to do a job to help their country in a positive way who have had their families kidnapped and killed. these insurgents are killing people who work for americans, construction workers, electiricians, people simply trying to provide for their families. you know how i know this to be true, because i walk outside everyday and meet an iraqi asking for help because terrorists are threatening the lives of his loved ones.
the insurgents want control of the country, and they are fighting a losing war, don't believe what the news sources are saying trust me we ARE winnig this war.
anytime an iraqi citizen is killed by americans it is one of two reasons. one the citizen was a terrorist/insurgent, or two it was an accident. as much as i hate to admit it, we make mistakes, things go wrong in combat it is a fact of life, we plan to avoid it but some things you just can't help. we do everything we can to remedy the damage we cause, and we definitely regret doing.
the insurgents are not trying to defend their country against americans. please do a little bit of research into the current situation before you make statements like this.
The majority of the insurgents are coming from other countries to fight the americans hence the title insurgent. we are not fighting people trying to liberate themselves this is an insurgency, and these people aren't fighting americans because they think we are trying to take over. they are fighting to prevent what we are trying to bring. a democratic coutnry into the middle east. they want their power in the government they see a country in a weakened state due to the change of power currently taking place. so they are attacking, not just americans, but the people of this country trying to make a difference. there are iraqi police officers now who volunteered to do a job to help their country in a positive way who have had their families kidnapped and killed. these insurgents are killing people who work for americans, construction workers, electiricians, people simply trying to provide for their families. you know how i know this to be true, because i walk outside everyday and meet an iraqi asking for help because terrorists are threatening the lives of his loved ones.
the insurgents want control of the country, and they are fighting a losing war, don't believe what the news sources are saying trust me we ARE winnig this war.
Quote
Now can you leave the country alone...What have they done to you? ***
They have done nothing that is why we are helping them.we are trying to let them go on with their lives by stopping these terrorists who are attacking them as much as they are us. Remember we didn't attack the country of Iraq we attacked the saddam regime, that is why this is called OIF(Operation Iraqi Freedom) we are freeing the iraqis.
***
Why do the people of iraq deserve to have american troops in their country killing their citizens?
anytime an iraqi citizen is killed by americans it is one of two reasons. one the citizen was a terrorist/insurgent, or two it was an accident. as much as i hate to admit it, we make mistakes, things go wrong in combat it is a fact of life, we plan to avoid it but some things you just can't help. we do everything we can to remedy the damage we cause, and we definitely regret doing.
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
EBSB52 0
Quote***Quoteany soldier that kills someone froma direct order is not resposable for that killing, who is giving the initial orders here? thousands are dead from his decisions.
is it murder if those thousands being killed are enemy soldiers, and terrorists, a murder is an unlawful killing, killing the enemy in combat is not unlawful, anymore pathetic excuses to jutify your case?
is it murder if those thousands being killed are enemy soldiers, and terrorists, a murder is an unlawful killing, killing the enemy in combat is not unlawful, anymore pathetic excuses to jutify your case?
Murder or not is subjective in these cases, just as whether it's an attack or a counter-attack. 9/11 was a counter-attack from a religion that is highly adversarial to the US. We have been trading attacks for decades, maybe centuries with the Muslims and 9/11, Desert Storm and the current Iraq situation is no different. Can Americans wonder off the compound in our good alli Sauidi Arabia? Hardly - the Muslims hate American's and let's face it; Muslims aren't welcome in most communities in the US. So what we call, "establishing Democracy" they call an invasion and ethintricity - it's purely perspective.
Americans sleep soundly in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Ya, nice movie, but let's leave Hollywood to Hollywood.
EBSB52 0
Quote[ He is killing people who are trying to defend there country from the americans.
the insurgents are not trying to defend their country against americans. please do a little bit of research into the current situation before you make statements like this.
The majority of the insurgents are coming from other countries to fight the americans hence the title insurgent. we are not fighting people trying to liberate themselves this is an insurgency, and these people aren't fighting americans because they think we are trying to take over. they are fighting to prevent what we are trying to bring. a democratic coutnry into the middle east. they want their power in the government they see a country in a weakened state due to the change of power currently taking place. so they are attacking, not just americans, but the people of this country trying to make a difference. there are iraqi police officers now who volunteered to do a job to help their country in a positive way who have had their families kidnapped and killed. these insurgents are killing people who work for americans, construction workers, electiricians, people simply trying to provide for their families. you know how i know this to be true, because i walk outside everyday and meet an iraqi asking for help because terrorists are threatening the lives of his loved ones.
the insurgents want control of the country, and they are fighting a losing war, don't believe what the news sources are saying trust me we ARE winnig this war.Quote
Now can you leave the country alone...What have they done to you? ***
They have done nothing that is why we are helping them.we are trying to let them go on with their lives by stopping these terrorists who are attacking them as much as they are us. Remember we didn't attack the country of Iraq we attacked the saddam regime, that is why this is called OIF(Operation Iraqi Freedom) we are freeing the iraqis.
***
Why do the people of iraq deserve to have american troops in their country killing their citizens?
anytime an iraqi citizen is killed by americans it is one of two reasons. one the citizen was a terrorist/insurgent, or two it was an accident. as much as i hate to admit it, we make mistakes, things go wrong in combat it is a fact of life, we plan to avoid it but some things you just can't help. we do everything we can to remedy the damage we cause, and we definitely regret doing.
anytime an iraqi citizen is killed by americans it is one of two reasons. one the citizen was a terrorist/insurgent, or two it was an accident. as much as i hate to admit it, we make mistakes, things go wrong in combat it is a fact of life, we plan to avoid it but some things you just can't help. we do everything we can to remedy the damage we cause, and we definitely regret doing.
Anytime? As in everytime? Please, didn't you hear about the Iraqi soldier that was injured and killed by a US soldier without need? There was vidoe of it, but since you apparently exclusively subscribe to Fox you might not have seen it.
They have done nothing that is why we are helping them.we are trying to let them go on with their lives by stopping these terrorists who are attacking them as much as they are us. Remember we didn't attack the country of Iraq we attacked the saddam regime, that is why this is called OIF(Operation Iraqi Freedom) we are freeing the iraqis.
Ya, we're gonna help them whether they want it or not.
Ok, so we are attacking the Saddam regime; did he/they attack us? It was OBL, no direct link to Saddam or WMD's were ever found. Therefore, we attacked Saddam w/o provocation from him, right?
...that is why this is called OIF(Operation Iraqi Freedom)...
Bahahaaha, and The Patriot Act is called so because.....? RICO was called so because.....? Don't get confused by the semantics of snappy titles....you know that thing about judging a book by its cover?
QuoteOperation Iraqi Freedom
I guess you have not heard about the election today.
QuoteHow many Iraqiis died wrongly under Sadam Hussein's reign? Would you have prefered that he remain in power so that he could continue his killing?
about 700 a week was his avg, a little behind hitler but it wasn;t his fault SH had a bad childhood
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Murder or not is subjective in these cases, just as whether it's an attack or a counter-attack. 9/11 was a counter-attack from a religion that is highly adversarial to the US. We have been trading attacks for decades, maybe centuries with the Muslims and 9/11, Desert Storm and the current Iraq situation is no different. Can Americans wonder off the compound in our good alli Sauidi Arabia? Hardly - the Muslims hate American's and let's face it; Muslims aren't welcome in most communities in the US. So what we call, "establishing Democracy" they call an invasion and ethintricity - it's purely perspective.
Ya, nice movie, but let's leave Hollywood to Hollywood.
Anytime? As in everytime? Please, didn't you hear about the Iraqi soldier that was injured and killed by a US soldier without need? There was vidoe of it, but since you apparently exclusively subscribe to Fox you might not have seen it.
***
i'm not judging a book by its cover, i'm saying these things because i am "in the book" i'm part of it. i'm here on the ground fighting the war. it was a snappy title as you put it, we are doing what we came here to do.
Quote
Once again i ask everyone to open a textbook before they open their mouth. since when did muslims and americans always hate each other, muslim extremists hate each other(notice the word extremist in that title, signifying not the average muslim). and likewise where are all these communities in the US where muslims are hated. most of the interpretors i have over here are iraqis who moved to america and have made a good living for themselves, they came back over here to help their homeland. but none of them talk of being treated differently because of their race or religion. and there are also many places in the middle east where americans can go out in public safely. now the first war in iraq, that wasn't an invasion of iraq, it was the liberation of kuwait, it had nothing to do with iraq being a muslim country, kuwait is a muslim coutnry too and we were helping them.
Ya, nice movie, but let's leave Hollywood to Hollywood.
Quote
don't waste my time trying to get me heated with comments like this, the way you make uneducated posts such as these does a great job of getting me worked up by itself.
Anytime? As in everytime? Please, didn't you hear about the Iraqi soldier that was injured and killed by a US soldier without need? There was vidoe of it, but since you apparently exclusively subscribe to Fox you might not have seen it.
Ya, we're gonna help them whether they want it or not.Quote
could you clarify what incident you are talking about. that was about as specific as saying "hey you're from colorado do you know john, he lives there." if an iraqi soldier was killed by an american without need surely that soldier is being punished as a war criminal, like i said mistakes happen, but at least we make the effort to right the wrongs so they don't continue to happen.
Bahahaaha, and The Patriot Act is called so because.....? RICO was called so because.....? Don't get confused by the semantics of snappy titles....you know that thing about judging a book by its cover?Quote
if they didn't want our help then they wouldn't be helping us do our jobs here. yes there arer small groups that protest us(i should add that the only reason they have the right to protest now is because we made sacrifices to give it to them), but if they didn't want our help they wouldn't be giving us the locations of terrorists, or working for us, or volunteering for the military we are standing up.
***
i'm not judging a book by its cover, i'm saying these things because i am "in the book" i'm part of it. i'm here on the ground fighting the war. it was a snappy title as you put it, we are doing what we came here to do.
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
--Dwight D. Eisenhower
EBSB52 0
QuoteQuoteOperation Iraqi Freedom
I guess you have not heard about the election today.
And that fragment means........?
Representative Democracies like the one in Nazimerica have less electorial power that is actually realized in the form of impact on the government than most modern-day Monarchies.
This concept of, "we can elect officials, hence the people have control of the gov" is a joke.
EBSB52 0
QuoteQuoteHow many Iraqiis died wrongly under Sadam Hussein's reign? Would you have prefered that he remain in power so that he could continue his killing?
about 700 a day was his avg, a little behind hitler but it wasn;t his fault SH had a bad childhood
700 per day - please cite your Fox news source.
700 per day is over 1/4 million per year - ya, I believe that. So next we will go into China to relieve the poor Chinese people of their atrocious leaders? Oh wait, I forgot we only pick on small countries.
EBSB52 0
QuoteMurder or not is subjective in these cases, just as whether it's an attack or a counter-attack. 9/11 was a counter-attack from a religion that is highly adversarial to the US. We have been trading attacks for decades, maybe centuries with the Muslims and 9/11, Desert Storm and the current Iraq situation is no different. Can Americans wonder off the compound in our good alli Sauidi Arabia? Hardly - the Muslims hate American's and let's face it; Muslims aren't welcome in most communities in the US. So what we call, "establishing Democracy" they call an invasion and ethintricity - it's purely perspective.***
Once again i ask everyone to open a textbook before they open their mouth.
Well, I don't see your cites, so maybe you should do some research and share it. Also, the, "open their mouth" reference is a gateway to an exchange of personal attacks, so maybe we should avoid that.
Now, onto textbooks..... the winner writes history, including textbooks, so don't believe everything you read, not that I see a lot of citations from them in these arguments anyway, so the point is moot from all sides.
since when did muslims and americans always hate each other,...
For starters, I didn't write, "always;" those words are reserved for conservative reasoning where they exaggerate their points with overly strong language.
It is common knowledge that the Christian-Muslim conflict has been going on for at least 500 years and the US has sided with the Christians. The ante was raised in 1948 when the Israelis and Palestinians fought for what is now called Israel, which is common knowledge. So there has been bad blood between the US and most Muslim countries - no surprise. Now we're going in and making them accept Christianity and to change their form of government. Now before you fire off about the Christianity part, we are subtly requiring the voluntary acceptance of Christianity by both our presence and by this thing we call Democratic control. You can want to believe that we are doing nice things over there, but their perception is what we are talking about, so I believe the consensus is that most don't appreciate us there.
...muslim extremists hate each other(notice the word extremist in that title, signifying not the average muslim).
Muslim extremists, as they're called in the US, hate the presence of the US in their country, not each other. I can say the same here: US extremists, those that voted for Bush, love the war over there even though 1 billion dollars per week and over 1400 dead US kids are being sacrificed for what is so far no gain.
now the first war in iraq, that wasn't an invasion of iraq, it was the liberation of kuwait, it had nothing to do with iraq being a muslim country, kuwait is a muslim coutnry too and we were helping them.
The reference to the entire region being Muslim, hence anti-Christianity, hence anti-American is general in scope. I'm sure there are some younger or less devout Muslims that might welcome the US, but as a rule I believe there is dislike for us there.
don't waste my time trying to get me heated with comments like this, the way you make uneducated posts such as these does a great job of getting me worked up by itself.
OK, and????? Your signature block has this statement in it, so I just commented. It was a line in the movie, A Few Good Men and I noted it. Ok, so you're heated; so what? I am, as well as my posts are very educated - like to compare?
could you clarify what incident you are talking about. that was about as specific as saying "hey you're from colorado do you know john, he lives there." if an iraqi soldier was killed by an american without need surely that soldier is being punished as a war criminal, like i said mistakes happen, but at least we make the effort to right the wrongs so they don't continue to happen.
About 4 months ago there was a news bite of a US soldier shooting and killing and unarmed and injured Iraqi soldier. Yes, he was arrested and was/will be tried, so they say. Oh, big mix-up. Isn't it great to default to things like, "It's not a perfect system, but it's the best in the world, bla, bla, bla..." Kind of alleviates one from dealing with the substantive issues, huh?
if they didn't want our help then they wouldn't be helping us do our jobs here. yes there arer small groups that protest us(i should add that the only reason they have the right to protest now is because we made sacrifices to give it to them), but if they didn't want our help they wouldn't be giving us the locations of terrorists, or working for us, or volunteering for the military we are standing up.
I'm sure there are dissenters to the former Iraqi government, but there are also many people that dissent from both Saddam and the US. Look, we weren't invited; we invited ourselves on false pretense, and that's per the White House release that there were no WMD's.
i'm not judging a book by its cover, i'm saying these things because i am "in the book" i'm part of it. i'm here on the ground fighting the war. it was a snappy title as you put it, we are doing what we came here to do.
I think you missed what I was saying. I was saying the title of your operation doesn't mean that it's the literal agenda of your mission, just the flowery title. I was in the service too, so I understand these misdirections.
I believe we're there to show the Middle East that if they step out of what we call the line, we will invade even with the dismay of most of the rest of the world. See, the problem here is that we are a heterogeneous country looking at homogeneous countries through our glasses. Maybe they don't want Christianity there; so what?
As a closing statement, your reference to reading books is undermined by your general punctuation, syntax and overall grammar. Not attacking you or trying to be the spelling Nazi, I am a lazy ‘typer’ at times too, but I just find it odd.
Your one warning. And please, no nonsense about how "it's really OK in this case because, don't you see, I was just using his own logic . . ." No personal attacks. PERIOD.
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