Long Distance (200-800 yrds) Target Rifle

[steve1 5]

And don't forget the 50 caliber. This is an ultra-flat round. The military now issues these in a single shot shoulder fired weapon. You can shoot through inches of solid steel with one of these. This would have to be the ultimate sniper weapon for the military. It wouldn't probably work too well for shooting in town by police though. I would imagine this weapon would also be extremely expensive. I think they are available. They might also be heavy to pack, but think of the ranges you could shoot with one.

The only 50 caliber I've fired was in the military. It had the butterfly thumb triggers on it, and was belt fed. With tracers you could could reach way and the hell out there, with little or no drop. I heard they even mounted scopes on these and used them as sniper weapons in Vietnam, for defending base camps....Steve1

[winsor 236]

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If you wanted to get into target shooting, what rifle, round and scope would you start with? The goal being about $1k. You plan to use the same rifle out to 800 yards. Where would you start? What would you spend the cash on? Would you spend a little more for an upgrade?

I've read the sniper rifle thread and some Savage v Rem debates.

As far as caliber goes, your best bullet selection is in the .308 section of the store. I have some superb .338s loaded, and out of my Model 70 Alaskan I can keep them in the black at very extended ranges all afternoon, but heavy hitters aren't my choice for long range precision. I'm much more recoil insensitive than most, but an extended range session with a heavy magnum rifle is a nontrivial experience.

Agreed, the .300 Winchester Magnum has been used to win the Wimbledon Cup 1,000 yard match - by Carlos Hathcock, no less - but the .308 has been used with great effect at ranges from 600 to 1,000 metres.

Ammunition costs are typically double for the magnum offering, and reloading costs are affected by the use of almost double the powder. Barrel life is much more of a consideration on a target rifle than its hunting counterpart, and accuracy begins to degrade on a heavy magnum rifle in a fraction of the time it would take in its milder stablemate.

My personal long-range target rifle is a Model 40X from the Remington Custom Shop in caliber .308 Winchester. It doesn't meet your criteria for <$1,000 total cost, but a modified Model 700, which has a very similar action, should come close to its performance.

For distances longer than 1,000 metres I have a LAR Grizzley Big Boar in caliber .50 BMG, but that's another animal altogether.

For glass on the Model 40X I have a Nikon 6.5-20X AO Target scope, which again blows through your budget constraints. You may be surprised at how fast optics can eat up a major chunk of capital expenditure on a shooting system; Leupold, Carl Zeiss, Swarovski and the like tend to be pricey, though the difference between high end scopes and their more affordable counterparts can be positively stunning.

The suggestion for using a .22 to get the kinesthetics dialed in is sound. My recommendation is to find a decent used target rifle and put a nice, inexpensive 1" tube scope on it.

For instruction I have a number of bolt-action Marlins and Mossbergs, all fitted with either 4X or 3-9X scopes. The triggers are admittedly not Anschutz or Hammerli quality, but what do you want for under $100? The barrels are great, and accuracy is about as good as you can hope with practice ammunition. With match ammunition a match barrel makes a difference, but here the primary rifle is a centerfire caliber, so it doesn't make that much difference.

Back to the issue at hand - what WOULD I get to get started.

Caliber - .308 for cost and availability of ready-made match ammunition. I have 168 gr. HPBT Match ammo from three different manufacturers on hand, in addition to loads tailored to my rifle.

Rifle - Remington 700, again for cost and availability. The Remington 700 is the Camaro of the centerfire rifle world in that you can get superb off-the-shelf aftermarket parts for every part of the rifle at very reasonable prices, which is not the case for many competitive rifles of otherwise equivalent quality.

Optics - Probably Leupold will give you the best quality for the price. You can spend thousands on scopes that provide perceived improvement, but the Leupold is sufficient to make the shot of a lifetime if you do your part. A fixed magnification scope in the 10 to 12 power range is likely all you really need for a specialized tool for long-range shooting. Anything I can hit at 36 power I can hit just as well at 12 power - accuracy limits are accuracy limits.

All things considered, someone who can shoot better than can a nicely tuned Remington 700 is one hell of a marksman and has spent enough time on the range to know exactly what equipment is necessary to do better. The Model 700 (or the Ruger, or the Savage, or Sako, or whatever) is enough to get you to that point if you work at it.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[JohnRich 4]

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...AR's and M-16s, but few would consider these a long range weapon out to 800 yards. A 223 round is very accurate out to 300 yards or so, but really falls off accuracy wise beyond that.
The bullet is so light it is easily affected by wind and other factors.

Times have changed. The AR-15 is now the most popular rifle in "highpower rifle" competition, shooting out to 600 yards. At the National Matches this year, an AR service rifle shooter came within a few points of the winner who shot a highly custom rifle.

I've even seen people using them with great effectiveness out to 1,000 yards.

The longer distances do require heavier bullets. Instead of the standard 55 gr., you've got to go to 69 gr. for medium distances, and 80 or even 90 gr. for long distance. And it's not so much just the weight, but the ballistic coefficient. Some .223 bullet designs approach the BC of bigger .30 caliber bullets.

You can buy specialized .223 target ammo from HSM (Hunter's Shack something...). Most highpower shooters reload their own. Sierra is known for making quality custom bullets for these specialized applications.

[Kennedy 0]

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The military now issues these in a single shot shoulder fired weapon.

I haven't heard of US armed forces using a single shot .50, only the semi-auto (M107) and bolt action (95M) Barrett fifties. Also, I heard the bull pup shoulder version was scrapped in favor of the more "traditional" rifles.
(or did you mean rifles as opposed to crew served weapons?)

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You can shoot through inches of solid steel with one of these.

Have you been listening to Barbara Boxer?

-------

Apparently you used the M2, and yes, Carlos Hathcock and others did put scopes on them and take shots out to ridiculous ranges (successful shots).

witty subliminal message
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1*

[LouDiamond 1]

Funny to see what many have posted as we(military) have run the gamit of what everyone has suggested. The accurized M14 designated the M21 sniper rifle is a fantastic weapon and is still in regular use by conventional forces today. It was on this weapon system that I got my first confirmed. I found them to be extremely durable compared to the Styr aug we sometimes carried although not as light. I also liked the ability to put rounds rapid fire down range if I needed.

The M24(700) is the mainstay right now and is a good weapon system. I believe you can pick up a police model version with the heavy barrel minus optics for under a grand at most gun shows.

The 300 win Mag/7mm and others have also been used on some occassions and has it's applications although it is not as common and not everyone has them.

Stoner came out with the SR25 which is a varient of the AR/M-16 line in that it looks like one on steroids but in 7.62. It is a magazine feed weapon system with selective fire and a slew of add ons. Again, it is a preference thing as this system is heavyier than the M24 and with the attached silencer it is incredibly long and only feasible to shoot from a bipod supported position. I have have shot standing off hand with the suppresor on it but it was extremley tiring.

As a recent new edition we have another AR/M16 looking version called the SPR/MOD 12 which is in 5.56 and has a suppresor as well. With that gun I can see getting competative out to the 800m mark but it is still pushing the envelope of the ballistics using factory ammo. Personaly I don't think the 5.56 is a good round if your plan on working 700 + meters and on

We have the barret .50 m107 and have been playing around with a few varients the company has given us to test. again another mag fed semiautomatic weapon.


Bolt vs SemiAuto arguements can go on all day but I have found todays semiauto weapon systems can be almost as accurate as a bolt but any real difference is like splitting hairs. But I like my Bolt actions


Optics wise, Leuopolds with the mil dot reticle is the way to go for shooting humans/game and range finding. Matching optics to the gun is another thing people either get or don't get but thats a different thread altogether.

I think if one shopped around they could find a Win 700 police model and a good optic for about 1500-2000. No doubt about it, optics is the one place not to scrimp if you want good results.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Jib 0]

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Matching optics to the gun is another thing people either get or don't get but thats a different thread altogether.

Do I have to start another thread?

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Salsa_John 0]

55gr is light and very accurate in low wind, but with a 90gr 1000yds is a cinch....

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[Salsa_John 0]

sorry, I don't know...I use open sights
There are many out there. Look for one that adjusts paralax, focus and zoom plus a no argue warranty

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[Salsa_John 0]

you have many good points, but a properly tuned AR handled by a high master can do 1000 easily

http://www.bcsportsmen.org/hipower.html

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=1000+yards+ar+15+competition

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[masterrig 1]

Thanks, John. I appreciate the in-put.


Chuck

[SniperCJ 0]

OK, just for grins I'll jump in here...

For starters, some of you should *really* stick to jumping and skydiving advise rather than offering precision rifle advice...but thats probably another thread....

The best advice posted so far was FROM A GIRL!! Nice job Karen. (Oh Hell! I just looked at your profile! No wonder you give good advice! Say Hi to Marty for me and are you going to SHOT Show?)

OK, on to the beatings...

Lets start by taking an auto racing maxim as applied to Precision rifle shooting: "Accuracy costs money. How accurate do you want to be?"

If you only want to be $1000 accurate, thats what we'll try to work with, but I gotta tell you $1000 accurate isnt all that accurate.

So, if you cant spend any more than $1000:

Rifles:

An M1A is more money and less accurate than you probably want. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE em, but even a really nice one is barely sub-MOA and its twice the money you want to spend. I wouldnt call it a "precision" rifle.

AR15's can be very accurate right out of the box and Ive seen people be real accurate with them to 1000yds, but its WAY easier with a heavier bullet.

Look at some of the Savage 10FP rifles. Theyre pretty accurate and pretty inexpensive.

Remington is a standard in the industry and you can find lots of aftermarket accessories for Rems that you cant find for other brands. Theyre also more expensive, but you can find deals here and there. The Rem PSS is pretty popular. Some are good, some are not so good.

Caliber:

308 all day long and twice on Sunday. You can find very accurate match ammo for them all over the place. Federal and Blackhills are the standards. 168 gr bullets will get you to 800 no problem, but if you want to go to 1000, go with the 175's.

Optics:

Its tough to go low cost and still get good glass, but we'lll try. I like variable power personally. I like the 4 - 14 or 3 - 17 range. If you plan to use the scope for range estimation you NEED the reticle (crosshairs for the uninformed..) to change size when you change power otherwise you can only range on one power setting (and hopefully you know what that power setting is...). This is called First Focal Plane. Do the research, I'm not going to go in to it unless I have to.

The Tasco SuperSniper (gawd I hate that name) scopes are getting decent reviews and run about $400. Otherwise take your chances with Simmons, BSA, Bushnell...

I'd increase the budget and go with Leupold or Horus Vision

Or you can totally blow the budget and go with US Optics, or any of the European ones (Kahles, Swarovski, Schmidt Bender).

And you still havnt put the scope ON the rifle. It'll cost you $300 for Badger rings and a base (and worth every penny, I might add).

OK, I'll stop the abuse at this time.

Good luck with your choices. Theres a lot of information (and apparently, *misinformation*) out there.

JC

PS - I didnt get the moniker just because I like guns...

[steve1 5]

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The military now issues these in a single shot shoulder fired weapon.

I haven't heard of US armed forces using a single shot .50, only the semi-auto (M107) and bolt action
reply]

I've seen documentaries of seal teams using this weapon. As near as I could tell it was single shot...and was bolt action....

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[steve1 5]

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You can shoot through inches of solid steel with one of these.

Have you been listening to Barbara Boxer?

-------reply]

Never heard of Barbara Boxer. I've heard there has been some scuttlebut by the media lately about the possibility of terrorists possibly using 50 caliber sniper weapons to shoot down airliners. Maybe she is part of this???.....Steve1

[steve1 5]

Maybe there are automatic weapons out there that can shoot as well as a bolt action. In my experience I've never shot one or seen one that could group as well as a bolt action, so I guess I've developed somewhat of a prejudice against them in that respect. Maybe I need a new automatic to try out, and I might change my mind.

I don't think you need to lay out a ton of cash for an accurate custom rifle. I do think, if you can do some of your own gunsmith work such as trigger work, glass bedding, and start with a good rifle to begin with such as a model 700, you can end up with a rifle that will shoot as good as any custom rig.

Reloading is a big part of this. It's important to match the right custom reload to that rifle.

You can get a nice Leupold scope Vari II. for around $300. Maybe they aren't quite as clear as the $1,000 or more scopes, but for the price they are a real bargain.

An 800 yard shot is a tough thing to make. In my mind you need a very flat shooting accurate rifle.

The really hard part is judging whether this is exactly 800 yards or is it 900 or only 650. Having a flatter shooting rifle can spell the difference between a hit or a miss. You may not be carrying a range finder or have time to use one. Your range finder may be off. And then there is usually some wind to allow for or possibly mirage.

So, in my mind, I'd like a rifle that can shoot flat, and buck the wind well, if I plan to take that occaisional long shot.

Maybe I've been selling the 308 short. I looked at some ballistic charts last night, and was impressed. I've always been a big fan of the 30/06 and just assumed that since the 06 is longer it must be a lot flatter shooting. According to my book the 308 can be loaded almost as hot as the 30/06, so maybe I need to rethink that one.

I use a 22-250 a lot on everything from prairie dogs to coyotes to an occaisional deer and antelope here in Montana. It seems like it is very much affected by wind. I usually load a 55 grain bullet in it. I would imagine a heavier bullet would buck the wind better. But wouldn't you also be losing a lot trajectory wise with the heavier bullets.

I would also like to see how much a 22 caliber bullet would drop in comparison to say a 300 magnum at a 1,000 yards. My reloading manuals only show out to 500 yards and the heaviest round shown in 22 caliber there is 60 grains. But even with that lighter weight bullet there is considerable difference in trajectory. It just seems to me that you would be really handicapping yourself by using 223 in a situation where the shots are extremely long and where the wind usually is blowing.

I know magnums kick a lot, make a lot of noise, and I'm not a big fan of them, but the bottom line is that many of them are extremely flat shooting. Barrel life is also shorter in many of them. Accuracy will start falling off sooner if you shoot a ton of rounds through them. Some are worse than others in this respect. Sometimes this barrel life gets exaggerated though. But these are factors to keep in mind.

One other thing to consider is that most folks don't shoot a magnum as well as they can a rifle with less recoil. I usually don't. Some couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their ultra hot magnum because it just kicks too much and sounds like a bomb going off every time they touch the trigger, and they end up flinching like hell.

I hope I don't raise anyone's hackles by throwing this out there. These are my opinions, and I respect my fellow gun owners.....Steve1

[SniperCJ 0]

Good post Steve.

I agree on the auto / bolt accuracy issue, although Ive seen a few custom semi's that can compete with bolt buns.

I think the main issue with the 3006 vs 308 issue is the lack of factory match ammo available. If youre handloading you can bridge this gap.

If I *know* im shooting out past 800 or so, I'll go with my 300WM any day. Its a great shooting rifle and, like you said, it shoots flatter so there is more of a margin of error if my range is off. For example my 308 bullet drop at 1000 is 11 mils. The drop on the 300WM is 7.5 mils. Quite a difference.

[Kennedy 0]

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You can shoot through inches of solid steel with one of these.

Have you been listening to Barbara Boxer?

Never heard of Barbara Boxer. I've heard there has been some scuttlebut by the media lately about the possibility of terrorists possibly using 50 caliber sniper weapons to shoot down airliners. Maybe she is part of this???

Barbara Boxer is a politician who wants to ban basically every gun in existance. She's one of those people who think only the military and some cops should have guns (oh yeah, and well she still hasn't got a plan to get them away from criminals, just you and me).

She makes outrageous claims on a fairly regular basis. I've listed a few facts below.

ps - if a terrorist wants to bring down an airliner, they have missiles and RPGs that would do a much better job.

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Myth: .50s are capable of piercing airline fuel tanks from a mile away

Fact: Even the most expert long distance shooters cannot hit a stationary target under perfect, windless weather conditions at such distances (with one notable exception in Vietnam). An ill trained terrorist shooting a high-recoil .50 caliber rifle at a fast moving target – such as a 600 mph airplane – has virtually no chance.

Myth: The bullet from this gun can penetrate concrete bunkers

Fact: "It takes 300 rounds to penetrate 2 meters of reinforced concrete at 100 meters.” At $5 per round, it would cost a terrorist $1,500 in ammunition to shoot into one bunker.

Myth: The .50 caliber round is capable of piercing light armor at 4 miles

Fact: "At 35 meters distance (0.5% of the mythical distance), a .50 round will go through one inch armor plate."

Fact: "It is exceedingly difficult to hit a target, even a large one, on one shot at anything over 1200 to 1500 yards by even highly trained individuals."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[jumper03 0]

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Myth: .50s are capable of piercing airline fuel tanks from a mile away

Fact: Even the most expert long distance shooters cannot hit a stationary target under perfect, windless weather conditions at such distances (with one notable exception in Vietnam). An ill trained terrorist shooting a high-recoil .50 caliber rifle at a fast moving target – such as a 600 mph airplane – has virtually no chance.

Your fact assumes the airliner is moving. The myth says nothing about that.

So can a .50 round penetrate the tanks at a mile away?

I can get within a mile of the taxi area at most airports and there are stationary planes on the tarmac. Hitting the target otoh is a different story

Scars remind us that the past is real

[SniperCJ 0]

So can a .50 round penetrate the tanks at a mile away?***

It should be able to penetrate no problem.

[steve1 5]

The 50 caliber is an awesome round. Pick one up and look at it, and you know what I mean. The only 50 caliber I've fired was of the old machine gun variety. But man, was that thing ever flat shooting. I don't know for sure how much steel it could shoot thru, but with armor piercing bullets, I'd say a lot. I don't know much about tanks. Maybe it wouldn't penetrate one of those. Maybe they're too thick. But an aluminum type aircraft should be a piece of cake (if you could hit it). That might be tough if they're going a couple hundred miles per hour through the air....Steve1

[JohnRich 4]

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The 50 caliber is an awesome round.

Here's a comparison of the .50 BMG cartridge (left), next to a .308 cartridge (right).

The anti-gun politicians use the "shoot down an airliner" blurb to scare people into banning it. They've already suceeded in California. Your state may be next. But the fact is, .30 caliber rifles could be used to shoot down airliners too. Once they get people to buy this line as an excuse to ban .50 caliber rifles, then they'll move their goal line and come for our .30 caliber deer and target rifles...

[LouDiamond 1]

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An 800 yard shot is a tough thing to make. In my mind you need a very flat shooting accurate rifle.

The really hard part is judging whether this is exactly 800 yards or is it 900 or only 650. Having a flatter shooting rifle can spell the difference between a hit or a miss. You may not be carrying a range finder or have time to use one. Your range finder may be off. And then there is usually some wind to allow for or possibly mirage.

No doubt about that. Granted paper targets don't shoot back and in this application, they aren't moving. One of the very reasons I like the Mil dot system and find it very easy to use is I can range and call my own winds while aquiring my target very quickly if I don't have a spotter. I have seen some commercial scopes with the Mil dot reticle in them or close variations there of. IMO, most commercial scopes have too many gee whizz scales on them or are confusing to use in certain circumstances.

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According to my book the 308 can be loaded almost as hot as the 30/06, so maybe I need to rethink that one.

We've played around with that and had pretty good results as hand loads allow you to fit the cartridge to the scenario your intending to use it in. With a hand load we were able to get groups we were happy with out past 800m on a consistent baisis even on what would be considered a bad day to shoot. I'm not a big handload fan as they tend to get like computer geeks and sit around and talk weights and grains this and that.

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It just seems to me that you would be really handicapping yourself by using 223 in a situation where the shots are extremely long and where the wind usually is blowing.

Myself and other SOTIC grads here in Afghanistan feel the same way. The 7.62 round is far better suited in this and other environments, even for shooting paper.

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I know magnums kick a lot, make a lot of noise, and I'm not a big fan of them, but the bottom line is that many of them are extremely flat shooting

They are really great for their flat trajectory and we used them primarily for High/low angle shooting and shooting through glass at every angle imaginable. They do tend to be loud but we have ways of getting around that


Talking guns is much like talking skydiving gear, you have your pros and your cons and your individual specific preferences. In the end, only you know what makes you happy.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[steve1 5]

Lou,
Sniper school would be a a great education on long distance shooting. I'm sure it would be extremely demanding and not many folks are capable of that kind of work. I can only imagine how hard an ultra long shot would be to make in a combat situation. Most of us can only wonder what that would be like. Even at targets most of us are incapable of making shots like that.....Steve1

[steve1 5]

I did a little research lately on the 50 calibers use as a sniper weapon. Seal teams are using two versions of a shoulder fired 50 caliber. One is semi-auto. The other is a bolt action made by McMillian. The McMillian is single shot, but some versions also have a clip magazine. The Mcmillian sells for around $7,000 and is still legal to buy for civilian use. That could be changing soon. A sniper in Iraq recently made a confirmed kill at over 2,000 yards with one. This is kind of morbid talk, but it does show the effective range of one of these. I'd never buy one for civilian use, mostly because I don't know what I'd use it for, but what a weapon!....Steve1