mr2mk1g 10 #26 January 20, 2005 Yup I agree. It's always good to hear other people's ideas... even if it is that Jesus is coming and that he's carrying a machine gun. The sad thing about my rain forest debate was that people really were convinced by it. They asked me afterwards if the statistics and systems I'd described were true and what they should do about it. Yes everything I'd said was true... but it was what I didn't tell them that would have more than balanced out the argument in favor of my opponent. Things are never one sided. It's difficult to believe someone who vehemently only provides one side of the argument. That's what I see on here aaaallllllllll the time. Someone puts all the points which help their position and totally ignore other very relevant points which don't sit well with their hard line stance on the issue. That's certainly a good way to start an argument.... but it's not really a way to help someone understand the issue your discussing... and more worryingly, if the poster truly believes that what they wrote was the whole story... then more often than not they're hopelessly misinformed about the topic and should simply shut up for a while and listen some more. Misinformed people don’t have any place trying to educate others about the issue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #27 January 20, 2005 Quote My point is that its human nature and I'd prefer to have a level playing field slanted in my favor Dave you are a fat big guy...You already have a natural advantage."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #28 January 20, 2005 Quote And you well know that the object isn't the weapon, the mind is... I agree, but are you saying that a gun does not make killing easier?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 January 20, 2005 Quote Killers don't seem to be too concerned about the ease of the task I disagree. Given the choice of killing someone with a rock or a gun what would you choose? Now if you had to be attacked would you rather be attacked by a guy with a rock, or a guy with a gun? Are you arguing that guns don't make killing easier?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 January 20, 2005 Quote Don't forget automobiles. Not only do people use them to kill others, they accidently hurt themselves with them. I mean if banning cars could just save the life of one child, it woud be worth it. Anyone against banning the automobile must be for killing children. Cars have a daily useful porpose. I drove to work today, I bet most that read this will drive or ride in a car today. They will need to drive or ride ina car today. I also be less than 1/3 will need to shoot a gun today. Less than 1/3 will choose to shot a gun today. This is non sequitur. Cars have nothing to do with guns."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #31 January 20, 2005 "Misinformed people don’t have any place trying to educate others about the issue." Problem is...myself included...misinformed people don't know that they are. Quite often, we don't know what we don't know, if you see what I mean.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #32 January 20, 2005 hehe, and thus we have the S.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #33 January 20, 2005 Quote Dave you are a fat big guy...You already have a natural advantage. Hahahahahahaha! Yeah, like the dinosaurs right? That's why they're our evil overlords now... Actually, I'm waiting for someone to write a theory that all the dinosaurs are extinct due to handguns violence...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #34 January 20, 2005 Quote Actually, I'm waiting for someone to write a theory that all the dinosaurs are extinct due to handguns violence... Well, have you seen a single dinosaur since handguns were invented? Theres your proof"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #35 January 20, 2005 Quote Given the choice of killing someone with a rock or a gun what would you choose? Now if you had to be attacked would you rather be attacked by a guy with a rock, or a guy with a gun? Are you arguing that guns don't make killing easier? Are you arguing that you'll be happier being stabbed to death rather than shot to death? 97% of people who face an armed criminal are not shot. And even when gunshot wounds are received, they aren't as deadly as commonly believed - there are about 100,000 people who suffer gunshot injury each year, and survive. 40% of those are treated and released from hospitals without an overnight stay. Someone who acts in an out-of-control murderous rage, is not going to be picky about what tools are available. He's not going to suddenly think; "Aw shucks, I really want to kill this guy, but gosh-darnit, I don't have a gun handy, so I guess I'm outta luck." No, a person in a murderous rage will use whatever is handy to carry out his lust for a violent act. There are about 800 people killed in the U.S. each year with nothing but fists and feet. Sure, if you could wave a magic wand and make all guns vanish , then murder by guns would cease. But murder by other methods would rise to fill the void. England is proving this right now, since their 1997 gun confiscation. Meanwhile, more innocent people would be killed, because they were unable to defend themselves with their lawful guns, which just encourages the criminals to further attacks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #36 January 20, 2005 Quote Cars have a daily useful porpose. I also be less than 1/3 will need to shoot a gun today. The degree of usefulness of a tool is not necessarily determined by how often it is used. A gun would have to only save me from criminal attack once in a lifetime, to be deemed a priceless possession. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #37 January 20, 2005 Quote Are you arguing that you'll be happier being stabbed to death rather than shot to death? If you were in a rage and wanted to kill me I would rather you not have access to a firearm. I would MUCH rather face you if you were not armed at all, or armed with the least easy to use weapon. Would you rather face a madman if he was holding a nice pointy stick, or a Glock .40? I'd rather face the guy with the stick. In training we used to use markers to simulate a knife....We almost always got stabbed before we could disarm the guy...but a good number of those cuts were not life threatning. With a gun it was not the same. Quote 97% of people who face an armed criminal are not shot. And even when gunshot wounds are received, they aren't as deadly as commonly believed - there are about 100,000 people who suffer gunshot injury each year, and survive. 40% of those are treated and released from hospitals without an overnight stay. And I'd bet that the same number are not stabbed. Also a stab wound is normaly less lethal than a gun shot wound. Quote Someone who acts in an out-of-control murderous rage, is not going to be picky about what tools are available. He's not going to suddently think; "Aw shucks, I really want to kill this guy, but gosh-darnit, I don't have a gun handy, so I guess I'm outta luck." No, a person in a murderous rage, will use whatever is handy to commit his violent act. And if a gun is available he will use it...I'd rather he have the LEAST damaging weapon when he decides to attack me. So if you gave me the choice of facing a lunitic with a knife or a Gun...I'd rather face the knife...How about you?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #38 January 20, 2005 Quote If you were in a rage and wanted to kill me I would rather you not have access to a firearm. The problem with this fairy-tale dream is that it just isn't possible. The history of crime around the world proves that no matter what measures are instituted to try and prevent criminals from getting guns - they don't work. Even Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, surrounded by Nazis, in what may have been the most heavily controlled neighborhood on earth, managed to smuggle in some guns with which to defend themselves. "The number of firearms required to satisfy the crime market is minute, and these are supplied no matter what controls are instituted... There is no case, either in the history of this country or in the experience of other countries, in which controls can be shown to have restricted the flow of weapons to criminals or in any way reduced armed crime." - Metropolitan Police Superintendent, Colin Greenwood, West Yorkshire, England, 1996.The genie is out of the bottle. Instead of hoping in vain for a magic wand, or flailing in vain with ineffective laws, the issue should be dealt with in other ways. Like stiff criminal penalties for misuse, education and personal responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #39 January 20, 2005 Hi John ... It seems to me that you've kind of missed the point of the thread...... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #40 January 20, 2005 Could you just once answer the question? Would you rather face a crazed man that wanted to kill you if he had: A. A nice sharp pointed stick. B. A Glock .40 Quote The problem with this fairy-tale dream is that it just isn't possible. The history of crime around the world proves that no matter what measures are instituted to try and prevent criminals from getting guns - they don't work. Even Jews in the Warsaw ghetto, surrounded by Nazis, in what may have been the most heavily controlled neighborhood on earth, managed to smuggle in some guns with which to defend themselves. Well logic says that the more guns there are the easier they are to get. The easier they are to get the bigger chance that they will be used by a bad guy. See if they didn't exist, then no one could use one....If everyone carried one there would be more gun fights. Do you deny the basic facts? And unless you answer the question, don't bother to respond."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #41 January 20, 2005 Quote Are you arguing that you'll be happier being stabbed to death rather than shot to death? 97% of people who face an armed criminal are not shot. And even when gunshot wounds are received, they aren't as deadly as commonly believed - there are about 100,000 people who suffer gunshot injury each year, and survive. 40% of those are treated and released from hospitals without an overnight stay. Someone who acts in an out-of-control murderous rage, is not going to be picky about what tools are available. He's not going to suddenly think; "Aw shucks, I really want to kill this guy, but gosh-darnit, I don't have a gun handy, so I guess I'm outta luck." No, a person in a murderous rage will use whatever is handy to carry out his lust for a violent act. There are about 800 people killed in the U.S. each year with nothing but fists and feet. Sure, if you could wave a magic wand and make all guns vanish , then murder by guns would cease. But murder by other methods would rise to fill the void. England is proving this right now, since their 1997 gun confiscation. Meanwhile, more innocent people would be killed, because they were unable to defend themselves with their lawful guns, which just encourages the criminals to further attacks. And what the hell does any of that have to do with the statement that a gun makes killing easier? Doesn't mean killing will stop, blahblahblahblah, just simply that a gun makes it easier....... Jeez...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 January 20, 2005 Quote Doesn't mean killing will stop, blahblahblahblah, just simply that a gun makes it easier....... Would you rather face a guy with a stick or a gun?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #43 January 20, 2005 Quote Would you rather face a guy with a stick or a gun? I would rather face the guy with a stick, that is he has the stick..... You did realize I was agreeing with you.....did you Ron? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #44 January 21, 2005 Quote a stab wound is normaly less lethal than a gun shot wound. Actually federal statistics say that knife attacks result in death far more often than gun attacks. Guns miss. Once the knife comes at you it's hard to miss with it. Quote And if a gun is available he will use it...I'd rather he have the LEAST damaging weapon when he decides to attack me. So if you gave me the choice of facing a lunitic with a knife or a Gun...I'd rather face the knife...How about you? If he can reach me, I can reach him. On the other hand, it's a whole lot easier to run away from a gun (in the hands of a lunatic).witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 January 21, 2005 Quote Also a stab wound is normaly less lethal than a gun shot wound. Not true... I don't have the exact numbers, but there was a study that showed that the majority of gunshot victims make it do the hospital alive (~70-80%, IIRC), while the majority of stabbing victims are DOA (~also around 70%, I believe).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #46 January 21, 2005 C'mon John... you've totally missed the point of this thread. You're supposed to be arguing the other side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #47 January 21, 2005 Quote You did realize I was agreeing with you.....did you Ron? Sorry Im so confused"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 January 21, 2005 Quote Actually federal statistics say that knife attacks result in death far more often than gun attacks. Guns miss. Once the knife comes at you it's hard to miss with it. Knifes have a limited range. Quote If he can reach me, I can reach him. On the other hand, it's a whole lot easier to run away from a gun (in the hands of a lunatic). Lunitics may be great shots. You think it's easier to run froma gun with a kife than a guy with a gun?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 January 21, 2005 Quote Not true... I don't have the exact numbers, but there was a study that showed that the majority of gunshot victims make it do the hospital alive (~70-80%, IIRC), while the majority of stabbing victims are DOA (~also around 70%, I believe). Please provide numbers not hearsay. Would you rather be shot, or stabbed?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #50 January 21, 2005 Quote Would you rather be shot, or stabbed? Can I just have a lollipop instead? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
