JohnRich 4 #1 January 12, 2005 News release: Four years ago, Maryland legislators passed a law requiring that all guns sold in the state have a fired cartridge case sent to state police, to be entered into a ballistic imaging database. (Oh, and just coincidentally, this also amounted to gun registration.) The idea is that when cartridge casings are found at crime scenes, they can be matched with those in the database, to find out who the owner of the gun is, which had been fired at the crime scene. Sounds like a great crime-fighting tool, right? Well, the Maryland State Police that run the program have just issued a report on the effectiveness of this new program. Here is the executive summary of the report (bolding is mine): * * *The additional year of study requested in the initial report on the status of the MD-IBIS (Maryiand-Integrated Ballistics ldentification System) Program has just concluded. Basically the same situation exists that was prevalent a year ago; however, some other issues of negative consequence have been illuminated. Continuing problems include the failure of the MD-IBIS to provide any meaningful hits. There have been no Crime investigations that have been enhanced or expedited through the use of MD-IBIS. Traditional methods proved to be the pathway to solution. Guns found to be used in the commission of crime again are not the ones being entered into MD-IBIS. The Program has been in existence four years at a cumulative cost of $2,567,633. The status or the sister system to MD-IBIS. the New York State Combined Ballistic Identification System (CoBIS) was reviewed. This system has compiled almost 80,000 cartridge case profiles into their database. The result however is the same as Maryland. There have been no hits reported by CoBlS. The fact that two systems performing the same function and yet have no results indicative of performance in the manner for which the systems were designed is significant. The annual budget request for CoBIS is approximately $4 M. Two additional concerns have been found to be of concern. Both affect the integrity of the heart of the Program - the database. Test fired cartridge cases from handguns sold in Maryland after October 1, 2000 were supposed to be included with the gun when it was shipped from the manufacturer. At least one incident was detected in which a gun dealer was actually doing the test fires himself and then submitting them to the MD-IBIS. This procedure lacks any safeguard to quality assurance and thus makes the integrity of the database suspect. Secondly, imaging biases demonstrated by the Lab Technicians who scan the digital images of the cartridge cases into the database are more diverse than the experts who use the criminal search side. The larger the diversion, the greater will be the likelihood of a non-match. Since June of 2003, four blind proficiency tests have been submitted through MD-IBIS. Of the three that have been reported back, the results have been inconclusive or no hit realized. The program simply has not met expectations and does not aid in the Mission statement of the Department of State Police. It is recommended that this program be suspended, a repeal of the collection of cartridge cases from current law be enacted and the Laboratory Technicians associated with the Program be transfered to the DNA Database Unit. * * *Yet another gun-control scheme bites the dust! Full report (3 meg): http://www.direct-action.org/ibis.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 January 12, 2005 Bwahahahahhaahahaha! They (anti-gun rights folks) just don't get it do they? And due to them our tax dollars get wasted with all sorts of bullshit like this.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #3 January 12, 2005 Wait, y'mean criminals DON'T use personally registered handguns to commit crimes? Doh! Who'da seen that one coming? you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #4 January 12, 2005 I believe the government is on the verge of scrapping the billion dollar registry here in Canada.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #5 January 12, 2005 Oh my........another waste of the good ol tax money on yet another half-baked gun control scheme......I am so fortunate to live out west,where for the most part,that kind of stuff doesnt happenMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #7 January 12, 2005 Quoteanother waste of the good ol tax money on yet another half-baked gun control scheme... I wonder how many more cops they could have put on the streets of Maryland for that same $2.5 million dollars? Let's see, if a cop, with patrol car, benefits, support, etc. costs $100,000 each, that same money would have been worth 25 police officers. And certainly those 25 police officers would have caught far more criminals than this ballistic database (which caught zero). Ah, but it felt so exhilarating to be registering guns! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #8 January 12, 2005 Quote They (anti-gun rights folks) just don't get it do they? And due to them our tax dollars get wasted with all sorts of bullshit like this. Unfortunately, that just leads them to laying the costs on gun owners in the form of user fees. This report will be very useful though as other states contemplate such a registry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #9 January 13, 2005 From the Brady Campaign web site: Ballistic Fingerprints Help Solve Crimes When a gun is fired, identifying marks are made on the bullets and cartridge casings. Those marks, called ballistic fingerprints, are as unique as human fingerprints - no two firearms leave the same marks. The marks are also reproducible - every time a gun is fired it leaves identical marks. The uniqueness and reproducible qualities of ballistic fingerprints can provide a critical tool to law enforcement for solving gun crimes by rapidly identifying the specific weapon that was used in a crime. * * *I guess the cops must be lying about their failed 4-year effort to do this in Maryland. Obviously, they've been bought-off by the evil gun lobby! Ha! They should be eating a lot of crow on this one. And counting on the uninformed masses never hearing about the Maryland report... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 January 13, 2005 That's funny, since if you change the barrel the gun no longer has that "fingerprint."--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #11 January 13, 2005 ***That's funny, since if you change the barrel the gun no longer has that "fingerprint." Or if you use a Glaser safety slug, there is nothing big enough left for ballistic identification Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #12 January 13, 2005 QuoteHa! They should be eating a lot of crow on this one. And counting on the uninformed masses never hearing about the Maryland report... Let's not forget about the California report. (Report to the Legislature, from CAAG Lockyer) http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=california+doj+attorney+general+ballistics+report&fr=FP-tab-web-t&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8 Maryland Report Confirms California Predictionwitty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #13 January 13, 2005 OMFG We're doomed we're all doomed. Write your congress person person and join the NRA, don't forget to bury a cashe in different locactions We're doomed we're all doomed According to John R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #14 January 13, 2005 I don't understand how this program constitutes gun control? They tried it, didin't work, so they scrapped it. Did the program forbid people to buy guns? Did the program prohibit the sale of certain guns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #15 January 13, 2005 ***id the program forbid people to buy guns? Did the program prohibit the sale of certain guns? No,but it was a gun registration scheme(albeit not a very good one) "registration=control" That constitutes gun controlMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #16 January 13, 2005 Quote"registration=control" Don't really agree with that. It may lead to control, but it isn't a form of control to register all guns. If you do something with that info to control behaviour that is now free to do, then I can see it being control. How is simple registration of guns the same as gun control? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #17 January 13, 2005 Quote***That's funny, since if you change the barrel the gun no longer has that "fingerprint." Or if you use a Glaser safety slug, there is nothing big enough left for ballistic identification Or fire it from a revolver or use a catch bag - no casings. Or just use a shotgun, or du...nevermind... mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #18 January 13, 2005 Quote***That's funny, since if you change the barrel the gun no longer has that "fingerprint." Or if you use a Glaser safety slug, there is nothing big enough left for ballistic identification The anti-gun folks have solutions to these problems too! Change barrels: must be re-registered and cartridges re-tested and re-submitted. Of course, the criminals will be sure to re-comply. Glaser ammo: Ban it! You can also just take a file to the chamber, bolt face and firing pin, and rearrange the metal a little bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #19 January 13, 2005 QuoteWe're doomed we're all doomed According to John As usual when people try to put words in my mouth, the words don't fit. If you're going to try and characterize what I'm saying, you've got to start paying more attention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #20 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuote"registration=control" Don't really agree with that. It may lead to control, but it isn't a form of control to register all guns. If you do something with that info to control behaviour that is now free to do, then I can see it being control. How is simple registration of guns the same as gun control? Look up the Sullivan laws.... they required residents of NYC to register their weapons....then several years later, came and confiscated them. California did the same thing a few years ago with legally owned semiautomatic rifles....Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #21 January 13, 2005 QuoteLook up the Sullivan laws.... they required residents of NYC to register their weapons....then several years later, came and confiscated them. California did the same thing a few years ago with legally owned semiautomatic rifles.... Confiscation I would certainly call control... Registration is not the same as confiscation though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #22 January 13, 2005 Without the registration, there would have been no ability to confiscate in a wholesale manner...All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #23 January 13, 2005 QuoteI don't understand how this program constitutes gun control? They tried it, didin't work, so they scrapped it. It hasn't been scrapped yet - the police are just recommending that it be scrapped. Carrying through with that recommendation will be a tough pill to swallow for the anti-gun legislators. Instead, they'll probably try and throw more money at it, or more time, or more people, or more regulations... The hardest thing for them to do, is to admit that their idea is a failure. QuoteDid the program prohibit the sale of certain guns? Yes. Only guns which manufacturers submit with fired cartridge casings for police can be sold in the state. If a manufacturer doesn't put forth that extra effort, they can't sell in Maryland. The state also has an "approved gun" roster, which lists the types of guns that Maryland citizens are allowed to own. Only guns with approved safety devices are allowed for sale. http://www.mdsp.maryland.gov/mdsp/downloads/Safety_devices.pdf Maryland has some crazy gun laws. Go here for more info: http://www.direct-action.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #24 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteLook up the Sullivan laws.... they required residents of NYC to register their weapons....then several years later, came and confiscated them. California did the same thing a few years ago with legally owned semiautomatic rifles.... Confiscation I would certainly call control... Registration is not the same as confiscation though. I understand where you see a difference...but in both those cases the people were told that the registration would be used for NO other purpose. So, how would ensure that registration does NOT get used for confiscation?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #25 January 13, 2005 QuoteConfiscation I would certainly call control... Registration is not the same as confiscation though. The problem is that confiscation almost always follows registration. Gun owners have learned the lessons from history, and don't want to repeat them. Why would the government want this database if they weren't going to use it for some control purpose further along in time? Most recently, in California, they required so-called "assault weapons" to be registered. They extended the deadline for this to allow more people to comply. Then along comes the Brady Campaign which sues the state saying the extension period was illegal, and they won. Therefore, everyone who registered their guns during that extension period, had their guns confiscated. Here's another example, happening in Belgium, right now: Expatica News Once the government has a list, all it takes is a few politicians to decide to do something with that list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
