dorbie 0 #26 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteAh, wiser than God now are we? Infinitely, if a non existent being can be assumed to have an IQ of 0. QuoteP.S. if you believe there is a purpose to life, then ask yourself why are we here? Just to have fun and jump out of planes etc? Yes. Great, isn't it Works for me Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #27 January 13, 2005 QuoteThank you for stepping up to the plate and trying to address all of those questions (instead of avoiding the answers, like someone else). Good job. That doesn't mean I buy your answers, but you did a good job. . Just because you continually post accusations that beg the question doesn't mean I'm avoiding answers when I point this out, in pointing it out I'm getting to the heart of the issue. Never mind the sheer incongruity of railing against God and seeking solace in Speaker's Corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #28 January 13, 2005 QuoteOn the flip side, a true believer should feel no grief whatsoever at the death of a friend. If the classical definition of heaven was true (eternity of happiness) this life and what happens in it is completely irrelevent, been and gone in the blink of an eye. People should be queing up to be taken by an act of god. I think that when kids lose a Mom or a Dad, that's a sad thing for both sides. How happy is Mom going to be in heaven, when she can't be with her kids any more? And how happy are the kids going to be, growing up without a Mom? That view of things which you expressed does not make sense to me - the true believers mystify me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #29 January 13, 2005 QuoteJust because you continually post accusations that beg the question doesn't mean I'm avoiding answers... Oh boy... First of all, just because I ask questions, doesn't make them "accusations". That implies some kind of wrong-doing, and none such exists here in this thread. It's just a debate. As for "avoiding answers", I didn't mention your name when I said that. And I was only referring to the few posts where you played word games instead of providing direct answers. Quotethe sheer incongruity of railing against God and seeking solace in Speaker's Corner. The "incongruity of railing against god" presumes that he exists. I don't believe he does, so I'm just railing against the idea of god. Once again, this is just a debate - I'm not trying to directly communicate with god. If I wanted to do that, I'd seek advice from Oral Roberts. Finally, I'm not "seeking solace" here. Once again; it's just a debate. It's an intellectual exercise, that's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bertusgeert 1 #30 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteOn the flip side, a true believer should feel no grief whatsoever at the death of a friend. If the classical definition of heaven was true (eternity of happiness) this life and what happens in it is completely irrelevent, been and gone in the blink of an eye. People should be queing up to be taken by an act of god. I think that when kids lose a Mom or a Dad, that's a sad thing for both sides. How happy is Mom going to be in heaven, when she can't be with her kids any more? And how happy are the kids going to be, growing up without a Mom? That view of things which you expressed does not make sense to me - the true believers mystify me. Once again, clear and simple. We experience pain on this earth because we chose against God. If Adam didn't sin, we'd all be happy without pain and death. YOU chose to suffer, don't blame God. But God is infinitely wise, and the child that grows up without a mum suffers immensely, but also has a great skill set that many children take years to develop. There are also advantages to the situation, and if this person chooses for God to use them, he will use them where he couldn't use the other people. Once again we have no idea of the infinite complexity of Gods plans, which are all for our eventual benefit if you want it to be. But it seems like you don't. I apreciate your peaceful argument John, I quite enjoy it, it has been a while since I had to answer to any of these questions and it is making me think through it again. Also, if you could explain to me what YOU believe, I would be grateful. You don't need to write a book, simply a definition of your beliefs I guess. I'm sure I have heard a similar theory. Cheers. Bertus G --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #31 January 13, 2005 Fair enough, however, begging the question is making a clear implicit accusation. My question to you is a variation on the classic example. "Why did you stop beating your wife?" is a question, not an accusation but it is similar to your question in many respects. While begging the question it also frames it in such a way that a simplistic denial as an indictment, "I've never stopped beating my wife!", "Aha so you admit you beat your wife.". Many people not only have a flexible belief in God, they have a complex and ambiguous one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #32 January 14, 2005 QuoteWe experience pain on this earth because we chose against God. If Adam didn't sin, we'd all be happy without pain and death. YOU chose to suffer, don't blame God. No, we did not choose pain and suffering. Adam didn't speak for us here in the year 2005, and god should not punish us, for something that Adam did thousands of years ago. Boy, he really knows how to hold a grudge. A divine being who inflicts this kind of unjustified punishment on people in perpetuity, is not the kind of loving god that deserves our worship and respect, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,595 #33 January 14, 2005 QuoteThere are also advantages to the situation, and if this person chooses for God to use them, he will use them where he couldn't use the other people I thought we had free will, how does that fit in with god using people?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,595 #34 January 14, 2005 QuoteI think that when kids lose a Mom or a Dad, that's a sad thing for both sides. How happy is Mom going to be in heaven, when she can't be with her kids any more? And how happy are the kids going to be, growing up without a Mom? That view of things which you expressed does not make sense to me - the true believers mystify me. People often talk of their beliefs as something they absolutely know to be true, deep down. These same people are then very sad at funerals, 'Why did he go so young?' etc. I don't blame them, death is a very sad event. But for someone who knows that God and heaven are out there death should be brilliant, like something you've been working towards. Everyone gets reunited up there so you can wait to see them again, right? After all, it'd be like a blink of an eye against eternity.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #35 January 14, 2005 QuotePeople often talk of their beliefs as something they absolutely know to be true, deep down. These same people are then very sad at funerals, 'Why did he go so young?' etc. That reminds me of another mystery which emanates from the religious folks. For example, if an airplane crashes and one baby survives, they proclaim it a "miracle baby" and claim that god spared the baby's life. What I want to know is, if god had the power to save that one life, then why didn't he save all of them? Too many attribute blind good luck to the motives of god, while at the same time ignoring that same god's lack of action against horrible bad luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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dorbie 0 #27 January 13, 2005 QuoteThank you for stepping up to the plate and trying to address all of those questions (instead of avoiding the answers, like someone else). Good job. That doesn't mean I buy your answers, but you did a good job. . Just because you continually post accusations that beg the question doesn't mean I'm avoiding answers when I point this out, in pointing it out I'm getting to the heart of the issue. Never mind the sheer incongruity of railing against God and seeking solace in Speaker's Corner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #28 January 13, 2005 QuoteOn the flip side, a true believer should feel no grief whatsoever at the death of a friend. If the classical definition of heaven was true (eternity of happiness) this life and what happens in it is completely irrelevent, been and gone in the blink of an eye. People should be queing up to be taken by an act of god. I think that when kids lose a Mom or a Dad, that's a sad thing for both sides. How happy is Mom going to be in heaven, when she can't be with her kids any more? And how happy are the kids going to be, growing up without a Mom? That view of things which you expressed does not make sense to me - the true believers mystify me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #29 January 13, 2005 QuoteJust because you continually post accusations that beg the question doesn't mean I'm avoiding answers... Oh boy... First of all, just because I ask questions, doesn't make them "accusations". That implies some kind of wrong-doing, and none such exists here in this thread. It's just a debate. As for "avoiding answers", I didn't mention your name when I said that. And I was only referring to the few posts where you played word games instead of providing direct answers. Quotethe sheer incongruity of railing against God and seeking solace in Speaker's Corner. The "incongruity of railing against god" presumes that he exists. I don't believe he does, so I'm just railing against the idea of god. Once again, this is just a debate - I'm not trying to directly communicate with god. If I wanted to do that, I'd seek advice from Oral Roberts. Finally, I'm not "seeking solace" here. Once again; it's just a debate. It's an intellectual exercise, that's all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #30 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteOn the flip side, a true believer should feel no grief whatsoever at the death of a friend. If the classical definition of heaven was true (eternity of happiness) this life and what happens in it is completely irrelevent, been and gone in the blink of an eye. People should be queing up to be taken by an act of god. I think that when kids lose a Mom or a Dad, that's a sad thing for both sides. How happy is Mom going to be in heaven, when she can't be with her kids any more? And how happy are the kids going to be, growing up without a Mom? That view of things which you expressed does not make sense to me - the true believers mystify me. Once again, clear and simple. We experience pain on this earth because we chose against God. If Adam didn't sin, we'd all be happy without pain and death. YOU chose to suffer, don't blame God. But God is infinitely wise, and the child that grows up without a mum suffers immensely, but also has a great skill set that many children take years to develop. There are also advantages to the situation, and if this person chooses for God to use them, he will use them where he couldn't use the other people. Once again we have no idea of the infinite complexity of Gods plans, which are all for our eventual benefit if you want it to be. But it seems like you don't. I apreciate your peaceful argument John, I quite enjoy it, it has been a while since I had to answer to any of these questions and it is making me think through it again. Also, if you could explain to me what YOU believe, I would be grateful. You don't need to write a book, simply a definition of your beliefs I guess. I'm sure I have heard a similar theory. Cheers. Bertus G --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #31 January 13, 2005 Fair enough, however, begging the question is making a clear implicit accusation. My question to you is a variation on the classic example. "Why did you stop beating your wife?" is a question, not an accusation but it is similar to your question in many respects. While begging the question it also frames it in such a way that a simplistic denial as an indictment, "I've never stopped beating my wife!", "Aha so you admit you beat your wife.". Many people not only have a flexible belief in God, they have a complex and ambiguous one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #32 January 14, 2005 QuoteWe experience pain on this earth because we chose against God. If Adam didn't sin, we'd all be happy without pain and death. YOU chose to suffer, don't blame God. No, we did not choose pain and suffering. Adam didn't speak for us here in the year 2005, and god should not punish us, for something that Adam did thousands of years ago. Boy, he really knows how to hold a grudge. A divine being who inflicts this kind of unjustified punishment on people in perpetuity, is not the kind of loving god that deserves our worship and respect, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,595 #33 January 14, 2005 QuoteThere are also advantages to the situation, and if this person chooses for God to use them, he will use them where he couldn't use the other people I thought we had free will, how does that fit in with god using people?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,595 #34 January 14, 2005 QuoteI think that when kids lose a Mom or a Dad, that's a sad thing for both sides. How happy is Mom going to be in heaven, when she can't be with her kids any more? And how happy are the kids going to be, growing up without a Mom? That view of things which you expressed does not make sense to me - the true believers mystify me. People often talk of their beliefs as something they absolutely know to be true, deep down. These same people are then very sad at funerals, 'Why did he go so young?' etc. I don't blame them, death is a very sad event. But for someone who knows that God and heaven are out there death should be brilliant, like something you've been working towards. Everyone gets reunited up there so you can wait to see them again, right? After all, it'd be like a blink of an eye against eternity.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #35 January 14, 2005 QuotePeople often talk of their beliefs as something they absolutely know to be true, deep down. These same people are then very sad at funerals, 'Why did he go so young?' etc. That reminds me of another mystery which emanates from the religious folks. For example, if an airplane crashes and one baby survives, they proclaim it a "miracle baby" and claim that god spared the baby's life. What I want to know is, if god had the power to save that one life, then why didn't he save all of them? Too many attribute blind good luck to the motives of god, while at the same time ignoring that same god's lack of action against horrible bad luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
JohnRich 4 #32 January 14, 2005 QuoteWe experience pain on this earth because we chose against God. If Adam didn't sin, we'd all be happy without pain and death. YOU chose to suffer, don't blame God. No, we did not choose pain and suffering. Adam didn't speak for us here in the year 2005, and god should not punish us, for something that Adam did thousands of years ago. Boy, he really knows how to hold a grudge. A divine being who inflicts this kind of unjustified punishment on people in perpetuity, is not the kind of loving god that deserves our worship and respect, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #33 January 14, 2005 QuoteThere are also advantages to the situation, and if this person chooses for God to use them, he will use them where he couldn't use the other people I thought we had free will, how does that fit in with god using people?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,595 #34 January 14, 2005 QuoteI think that when kids lose a Mom or a Dad, that's a sad thing for both sides. How happy is Mom going to be in heaven, when she can't be with her kids any more? And how happy are the kids going to be, growing up without a Mom? That view of things which you expressed does not make sense to me - the true believers mystify me. People often talk of their beliefs as something they absolutely know to be true, deep down. These same people are then very sad at funerals, 'Why did he go so young?' etc. I don't blame them, death is a very sad event. But for someone who knows that God and heaven are out there death should be brilliant, like something you've been working towards. Everyone gets reunited up there so you can wait to see them again, right? After all, it'd be like a blink of an eye against eternity.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #35 January 14, 2005 QuotePeople often talk of their beliefs as something they absolutely know to be true, deep down. These same people are then very sad at funerals, 'Why did he go so young?' etc. That reminds me of another mystery which emanates from the religious folks. For example, if an airplane crashes and one baby survives, they proclaim it a "miracle baby" and claim that god spared the baby's life. What I want to know is, if god had the power to save that one life, then why didn't he save all of them? Too many attribute blind good luck to the motives of god, while at the same time ignoring that same god's lack of action against horrible bad luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
