"Under God" in pledge or not?

[pajarito 0]

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Why not? I mean we all put things in things that others don't like... I like ketchup in my Mac and Cheese.

What are you talking about? I haven't been arguing the "whether God should be in there" thing. I was just arguing that you should do it even though you have the right not too (if you're a US citizen that is).

[AnotherGoodin 0]

oops sorry, i have bad posting habits.. it wasn't a reply to you... i odnt even know who it was to.. i just posted but forgot to delete your name....SORRY! Embarrased

If life gives you lemons then make lemonade, if not then go thirsty and keep on truckin'

[pajarito 0]

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oops sorry, i have bad posting habits.. it wasn't a reply to you... i odnt even know who it was to.. i just posted but forgot to delete your name....SORRY! Embarrased

Ssssssalright!!!

[Nightingale 0]

Personally, I've got no problem offering allegiance to my country. Heck, I tried to join the military. However, I object to some of the wording in the pledge, especially in its current form, and don't feel it's an adequate representation of the loyalty that should be offered by a citizen to their country. Therefore, I exercise my right as an American citizen to refrain from saying the pledge.

[pajarito 0]

And you have that right. I risked my life and many of my friends continue to risk and sacrifice theirs so you'll continue to have the right to refuse to say The Pledge of Allegiance.

[rehmwa 2]

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...don't feel it's an adequate representation of the loyalty that should be offered by a citizen to their country.

I'd like to know what else is objectionable.

1 - I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America
no issue? you don't like flags? or just the USA?
2 - and to the republic for which it stands
here? republics are wrong?
3 - one nation
here? maybe two or three nations would be better?
4 - Under God
topic of post
5 - indivisible
here? would divisable make more sense? or maybe multiplicative
6 - with liberty and justice for all
here? is this is a pretty bad goal for a nation?

Really - what other wording in it is even remotely controversial here to have an objection to?????

Frankly, someone can say it or not based on whether they like that it does or does not rhyme for all I care, but I really don't get making it an issue of "adequate representation of loyalty that should be offered by a citizen to their country". It seems just so much self-congratulatory mental stroking to me.

I take off my hat and say it when the opportunity happens (ball games, etc). I means I support my country even with all its faults and misplaced good intentions. I don't even try to read a bunch of pseudo quasi fake-intellectual junk into the words beyond that. It's really not necessary to purposely overcomplicate a rather simple concept.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,116]

>1 - I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America
>no issue? you don't like flags? or just the USA?

Some people do not worship idols (biblical objection) and they extend that to flags.

>3 - one nation
>here? maybe two or three nations would be better?

Or fifty; the US was originally seen as a union of free and independent states instead of a monolithic nation.

>4 - Under God
>topic of post

Or gods, if you're hindu

>5 - indivisible
>here? would divisable make more sense? or maybe multiplicative

Literally wrong if you're a nitpicker; it has been divided

>6 - with liberty and justice for all
>here? is this is a pretty bad goal for a nation?

Nice goal, currently untrue. Perhaps "most" would be a more accurate description.

>I take off my hat and say it when the opportunity happens (ball games,
>etc). I means I support my country even with all its faults and
>misplaced good intentions.

I agree. I do the same. But if someone wants to change the words to suit themselves, or to not stand, that's fine with me too.

[Nightingale 0]

because the flag is a symbol of the nation. I believe in offering allegiance to your nation, but not to representational symbols, because when focus is placed on the symbol rather than what it stands for, it often leads people to forget what the symbol truly represents. I'd be much more ok with the pledge if it read "I pledge allegiance to the United States of America". A flag is a piece of cloth. It's what it stands for that's important, not the flag itself.

[pajarito 0]

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because the flag is a symbol of the nation. I believe in offering allegiance to your nation, but not to representational symbols, because when focus is placed on the symbol rather than what it stands for, it often leads people to forget what the symbol truly represents. I'd be much more ok with the pledge if it read "I pledge allegiance to the United States of America". A flag is a piece of cloth. It's what it stands for that's important, not the flag itself.

That is by far the silliest reason I’ve ever heard not to state the Pledge of Allegiance. The flag represents the people of the United States of America. You’re not pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth with red and white stripes and stars. You’re pledging allegiance to your country and countrymen. As you even stated, the flag represents that. You’re right in that it’s what it stands for that’s important and not the cloth that it’s made of. However, because of what it represents, it should be treated with honor and respect.

[jcd11235 0]

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However, because of what it represents, it should be treated with honor and respect.

The other side of that coin is that disrespect to the flag does not imply disrespect to the country.

Personally, I'm a world citizen first, and a US citizen second. Want to write a Pledge of Allegiance to the Planet? I'll likely stand for something like that.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Ron 10]

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>1 - I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America
>no issue? you don't like flags? or just the USA?

Some people do not worship idols (biblical objection) and they extend that to flags.

Allegience and worship are two different things. They can both be thought of the same way if you wish, but they are not the same thing.

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>3 - one nation
>here? maybe two or three nations would be better?

Or fifty; the US was originally seen as a union of free and independent states instead of a monolithic nation

It is still a collection under one main body. The UNITED STATES of America.

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>4 - Under God
>topic of post

Or gods, if you're hindu

I could see a problem for some people to say this....So don't say it. Hell, I don't think it should be in there. But I don't care really.

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>5 - indivisible
>here? would divisable make more sense? or maybe multiplicative

Literally wrong if you're a nitpicker; it has been divided

It also has been brought back together. That is proof it is indivisible.

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>6 - with liberty and justice for all
>here? is this is a pretty bad goal for a nation?

Nice goal, currently untrue. Perhaps "most" would be a more accurate description

Untrue or not it is still a good goal. You aim for it, try for it, work for it. Not just assume it will never happen and accept defeat.

It amazes me how some folks don't resect the country. It amazes me even more how some don't respect the people who allow them not to say the pledge.

The whole issue is silly, but its a bunch of liberal busy bodies making an issue out of it.

Don't want to say it? Cool with me. Why try and sue people over it?

Geeze folks.

When I stand I think about all of the men and women that fought and died for this country. I may not agree with everything the Government does, but I pay my respect to those that gave me the freedoms I enjoy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,116]

>Allegience and worship are two different things. They can both be
>thought of the same way if you wish, but they are not the same thing.

You'd have to take that up with them.

>It is still a collection under one main body. The UNITED STATES of America.

Agreed; it's just that some (like the writers of the Declaration of Independence) described it a different way. But you can go either way.

>It also has been brought back together. That is proof it is indivisible.

in·di·vis·i·ble adj.
1. Incapable of undergoing division.

Therefore the US is divisible, because it was capable of undergoing division. It is also reunitable. So it would be more accurate to say "one nation, reunitable" if you were into 100% accuracy (which I'm not.)

>Untrue or not it is still a good goal. You aim for it, try for it, work for
>it. Not just assume it will never happen and accept defeat.

I agree. Oddly, many people here lately defend the lapses of justice here in the US, and have no problem denying US citizens the rights guaranteed in the constitution. Often it is these same people who strenuously object to any change in the constitution.

>Don't want to say it? Cool with me. Why try and sue people over it?

I agree. As long as no one is being forced to say it it's not much of an issue. If you're a historical buff I could see the desire to restore it to its original form. But even if they want to push for that, it should be a very minor issue.

[pajarito 0]

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The other side of that coin is that disrespect to the flag does not imply disrespect to the country.

It is disrespectful to the country if the country is what the flag represents and it is dishonored.

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Personally, I'm a world citizen first, and a US citizen second. Want to write a Pledge of Allegiance to the Planet? I'll likely stand for something like that.

Wow...
That almost leaves me speechless. World first...your country second.

[Ron 10]

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>It is still a collection under one main body. The UNITED STATES of America.

Agreed; it's just that some (like the writers of the Declaration of Independence) described it a different way. But you can go either way.

The writers of the Declaration knew they had to band together.

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"Indeed we must all hang together. Otherwise, we shall most assuredly hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of The Declaration of Independence

So if you think that the Signers of the Declaration wanted separate Governments....How do you feel about trying to make the Federal Government pay for Healthcare? Would that not be the States job?

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>It also has been brought back together. That is proof it is indivisible.

in·di·vis·i·ble adj.
1. Incapable of undergoing division.

Therefore the US is divisible, because it was capable of undergoing division. It is also reunitable. So it would be more accurate to say "one nation, reunitable" if you were into 100% accuracy (which I'm not.)

It was not very well divided if it didn't stay that way. Semantics. It tried to divide, but it didn't.

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>Untrue or not it is still a good goal. You aim for it, try for it, work for
>it. Not just assume it will never happen and accept defeat.

I agree. Oddly, many people here lately defend the lapses of justice here in the US, and have no problem denying US citizens the rights guaranteed in the constitution. Often it is these same people who strenuously object to any change in the constitution

I find it funny that people read things into the Constitution (1st amendment says nothing about division of Church and State), but miss other parts (Such as the right to bear arms).

To some I am sure it is just a matter of interpretation.

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I agree. As long as no one is being forced to say it it's not much of an issue. If you're a historical buff I could see the desire to restore it to its original form. But even if they want to push for that, it should be a very minor issue.

I would be all for "Under God" being removed.

Original Pledge:

'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'-Francis Bellamy, August 1892

BTW from the guy who wrote the Pledge:

What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

I'd be all for scraping the whole thing and saying the Preamble to the Constitution:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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It amazes me how some folks don't resect the country. It amazes me even more how some don't respect the people who allow them not to say the pledge.

..

Don't want to say it? Cool with me. Why try and sue people over it?

It amazes me how some don't respect those who don't see the need for a mindless loyalty oath, and attribute false notions of anti patriotism to them.

And despite what you may think, it's not terribly voluntary in the schools. Seems more Soviet than American to me, but hey, it's what people like you (the majority) want.

[billvon 3,116]

>How do you feel about trying to make the Federal Government pay for
>Healthcare? Would that not be the States job?

Obviously, the federal government wants to give healtcare only to abortion doctors who carry assault weapons to pro-gay-marriage rallies. (Figured one good tangent deserved another.)

>It was not very well divided if it didn't stay that way. Semantics. It tried
>to divide, but it didn't.

You might recall a war we had around a century and a half ago that occurred as a result of the south seceding. Not because they threatened to secede - because they did. Had their own government and everything.

>I find it funny that people read things into the Constitution (1st
>amendment says nothing about division of Church and State), but miss
>other parts (Such as the right to bear arms).

(The old hull of Speaker's Corner groans deeply as Ron strains mightily at the tiller, trying to change the old vessel's course into the great tributaries of the Smith and Wesson River.)

>I'd be all for scraping the whole thing and saying the Preamble to the Constitution:

Sure, that works too.

[livendive 8]

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Personally, I'm a world citizen first, and a US citizen second. Want to write a Pledge of Allegiance to the Planet? I'll likely stand for something like that.

Wow...
That almost leaves me speechless. World first...your country second.

I'm curious why you have such a response. We do all have to share this planet. If the US wants to take an action that will adversely affect most of the people or environments outside our borders but positively affect our citizenry, it would be immoral to support our government with nationalistic zeal and moral to pursue a path that protects a majority of the species, right?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Nightingale 0]

I do treat the flag with honor and respect. I have a flag that was flown on the mast of the USS Missouri that is folded in a flag box and displayed on my shelf. It is brought out and hung on a staff on certain days, put up in the morning, taken down before sunset, never flies in the rain, and upon lowering, is properly folded and not permitted to touch the ground. On the rare occasions when it has flown at night, it is always illuminated.

My grandfather's a veteran and if he ever saw me disrespecting the flag, he'd kick my ass from here to Tipperary. He's aware of the reasons I don't say the pledge, and while he doesn't have a problem saying it himself, recognizes that I can love my country and respect my flag without needing to recite anything. We had a long talk about it when I got in trouble for not saying the pledge in school, and while he was unhappy at first, he understood after our talk that it wasn't something I was doing out of rebellion or disrespect, that it was my way of remembering what was important and acknowledging where my loyalty should lie, and he decided that as long as I stood respectfully, he didn't have a problem with it. He realizes that not wanting to pledge allegiance to a symbol does not mean that the symbol is not respected. It means that the symbol and the country the symbol stands for should not be confused. Loyalty should be given to the people of the US, not the symbol that represents them. The flag is not America. The people are.

[jakee 1,595]

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I'm curious why you have such a response. We do all have to share this planet. If the US wants to take an action that will adversely affect most of the people or environments outside our borders but positively affect our citizenry, it would be immoral to support our government with nationalistic zeal and moral to pursue a path that protects a majority of the species, right?

Agreed, why do we feel such a duty to protect those lucky enough to have been born on the same side of the invisible lines as us. Someone lucky enough to have been born in North America or Western Europe (probably most of the people on this site) has already been far luckier than most everyone else on the planet, why the need to still put this elite group ahead of everyone else.

Of course protecting your country is protecting your own interests but apart from that why does the life of someone you'll never meet in your own country come above the life of someone you'll never meet in another country?

(not saying I'm not guilty of exactly that, this is just my vague idealistic ramble for the day

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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It is disrespectful to the country if the country is what the flag represents and it is dishonored.

As far as I am concerned, the Oklahoma City bombing was a disrespectful demonstration. Merely showing discontent with one's government by desecrating the flag is a far cry from disrespectful to the country. Do we no promote peaceful demonstration any longer?

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Wow...
That almost leaves me speechless. World first...your country second.

To be honest, so does your response. If you don't mind me asking, why would you put a single nation ahead of the entire world? That seems counterintuitive to one who believes in democracy.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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You might recall a war we had around a century and a half ago that occurred as a result of the south seceding. Not because they threatened to secede - because they did. Had their own government and everything.

Wasn't that the deadliest war american soldiers have ever seen?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Ron 10]

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It amazes me how some don't respect those who don't see the need for a mindless loyalty oath, and attribute false notions of anti patriotism to them.

And despite what you may think, it's not terribly voluntary in the schools. Seems more Soviet than American to me, but hey, it's what people like you (the majority) want.

Hey stud, how about we re-read my last post huh?

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It amazes me how some folks don't resect the country. It amazes me even more how some don't respect the people who allow them not to say the pledge.

..

Don't want to say it? Cool with me. Why try and sue people over it?

See I dont give a rats ass if people don't say it...I find it stupid that people sue over it however.

Read what I wrote before you assume something.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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>How do you feel about trying to make the Federal Government pay for
>Healthcare? Would that not be the States job?

Obviously, the federal government wants to give healtcare only to abortion doctors who carry assault weapons to pro-gay-marriage rallies. (Figured one good tangent deserved another.)

Nice try to dodge the question. If you think the States should be the major power, why do you think the Federal Government should pay for healthcare? BTW you know the Democratic Gov of TN, just dropped most of the TennCare coverage right?

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>It was not very well divided if it didn't stay that way. Semantics. It tried
>to divide, but it didn't.

You might recall a war we had around a century and a half ago that occurred as a result of the south seceding. Not because they threatened to secede - because they did. Had their own government and everything.

You might read to the back of the history book that they TRIED to seperate, but they did not in the end...See FL is still part of the United States.

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>I find it funny that people read things into the Constitution (1st
>amendment says nothing about division of Church and State), but miss
>other parts (Such as the right to bear arms).

(The old hull of Speaker's Corner groans deeply as Ron strains mightily at the tiller, trying to change the old vessel's course into the great tributaries of the Smith and Wesson River.)

Again instead of answering the question you try smoke and mirrors.

ANd you ignored my quote from Franklin that stated they had to band together.

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"Indeed we must all hang together. Otherwise, we shall most assuredly hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of The Declaration of Independence

You also avoided answering the question.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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Don't want to say it? Cool with me. Why try and sue people over it?


See I dont give a rats ass if people don't say it...I find it stupid that people sue over it however.

Read what I wrote before you assume something.

Assume what, Ron? People are suing over it because it's not a voluntary exercise. Or because if they they do want to say this oath, but without the religion bit creeping in.

And it's pretty clear that you do give a rat's ass about it.

[Ron 10]

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Assume what, Ron?

You assume that I want/care:

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Seems more Soviet than American to me, but hey, it's what people like you (the majority) want.

So don't assume what I want.

Like I said I don't care if you say it or not.

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People are suing over it because it's not a voluntary exercise.

Bullshit, no one is holding a gun to anyones head over this.

The jackass that is suing for his little girl in CA...He does not even have custody of his kid. And the girls Mother AND THE GIRL HERSELF don't mind it. He is suing since he is agnostic and trying to be a pain in the ass.

THAT is what I don't get. No one is going to tar and feather anyone if they don't say it.

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Or because if they they do want to say this oath, but without the religion bit creeping in.

Then don't say it. Or omit the words "Under God" then. Hell they could say "Under Todd" for all I really care.

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And it's pretty clear that you do give a rat's ass about it.

I care about some moron acting like a jackass even when the "injuried party" is not injured.

I care about how some people are so anti-everthing that they have to raise a stink about a couple of words.

Saying or not saying the words "Under God" means nothing to me. I am not religious. In fact I get more pissed at the fact that people don't stand and remove head gear when the Anthem plays. You don't want to say "under God"? Fine....I really Don't care. They wanna make a big deal out of it...Now I care since I think they are just beinga pain in the ass for no reason.

I said it before I'd rather scrap the whole Pledge and just have people say the pramble to the Constitution.....You would be amazed at how many people don't know that, but can recite lines from a "Friends" episode, or the latest gansta rap.

Like I said....the words "Under God"....I could not care.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334