"Under God" in pledge or not?

[EBSB52 0]

This should have been in the original thread - oops

[kelpdiver 2]

The loyalty oath aspect is as at least as objectionable as the passing reference to God.

[rehmwa 2]

I think it's a silly thing to have in there.

But, it's not worth the effort to remove as it's a pretty minor thing.

And, I'd never exploit my own child for any agenda, particularly a nit like this one.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

No, but then again I don't care.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,116]

>I think it's a silly thing to have in there.
>But, it's not worth the effort to remove as it's a pretty minor thing.

I agree. The pledge originally did not contain "under god" so there is something to be said for restoring the original pledge, but it's just not that big a deal. If someone wants they can just not say anything, or they can substitute something else ("under gods" or "under Jesus" or whatever.) Seems to be a better way to handle it.

[kelel01 1]

I agree with everyone else. Whatever the majority prefers is fine with me. I'm not offended either way.

[jcd11235 0]

I agree, as well.

First, unless rules have changed since I was a youngster, no students are required to recite the pledge. It is voluntary. They can skip it wholly, or in part.

Second, the term God is not specific to any religion. If it doesn't imply association with a particular religion in other documents, I wouldn't think it implies such an association within the pledge.

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[peregrinerose 0]

You should have an 'it doesn't really matter either way' choice there. I am agnostic more than anything else. If I don't like the 'under God' part, I just won't say those two words. What's the big deal?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Nightingale 0]

however, students are generally not informed of their option to skip the recitation of the pledge.

For my own reasons which had nothing to do with religion, I chose not to say the pledge in high school. My teacher did not even know that I had the option of skipping it until she discussed it with the administration! She pitched a fit in class when I chose to simply stand with the rest of the class and keep my hands at my sides and my mouth closed.

[jcd11235 0]

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My teacher did not even know that I had the option of skipping it until she discussed it with the administration! She pitched a fit in class when I chose to simply stand with the rest of the class and keep my hands at my sides and my mouth closed.

I was sent to the dreaded principal's office, for not even standing, to show my lack of support for Desert Storm. I remember he was about as confused as I was as to why I was sent his way.

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[bodypilot90 0]

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I was sent to the dreaded principal's office, for not even standing, to show my lack of support for Desert Storm.

what was you reason for not supporting Desert Storm? This I got to hear.

[pajarito 0]

Even if he wasn't a supporter of Desert Storm, what an awful display of disloyalty and disrespect. The USA is much bigger than Desert Storm. He had the right to disrespect his country in such a manner only because of people like those currently dying overseas. Just because you have that right, however, doesn’t mean that you “should” exercise it in that manner (i.e. burning the flag). Maybe I should use another example because he's probably not a supporter of the current campaign. How about like those who died gaining our country's independence and freedom. Standing for the Pledge of Allegiance is like saluting the office of the Presidency. You may not like or even hate the person holding the office but it's bigger than that. You salute because you're an American. If you don't want to be one, you're also free to leave "and give up your citizenship."

[jcd11235 0]

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what was you reason for not supporting Desert Storm? This I got to hear.

I thought we were fighting for oil, a prize not worthy of bloodshed.

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[jcd11235 0]

I agree, the nation is larger than any one war. However, I do not like the idea of "pledging allegience" to anything. It seems to much like blind support to me, and I do not believe it is healthy or responsible to give blind support to anything.

Just because I do not stand for the pledge, does not mean that I dislike the country, only that tradition. I find it in no way disrespectful to America to excercise my rights, rights which the Constitution guarantees the government cannot infringe.

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[bodypilot90 0]

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I agree, the nation is larger than any one war. However, I do not like the idea of "pledging allegience" to anything. It seems to much like blind support to me, and I do not believe it is healthy or responsible to give blind support to anything.

and yet you want me to blindly cradle to grave health care a free degree that I'm not sure you will use.

btw how did you "join the service" with out "pledging allegience" to fight all enemies

[jcd11235 0]

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and yet you want me to blindly cradle to grave health care a free degree that I'm not sure you will use.

? ? ? ? Could you please clarify that sentence?

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btw how did you "join the service" with out "pledging allegience" to fight all enemies

I signed my name on the line, just like everyone else. I was paid to do a job, defend the nation against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I believed that the CIC (President Clinton) had the nation's best interests at heart, which I cannot honestly say today, with W. at the helm.

I've done many things as part of a job that I would have been hesitant to do without pay, such as supervising subordinates with an eye towards the company's bottom line.

On the other hand, if I feel that strongly about something, it doesn't matter what the price, I won't do it. An empty stomach is nowhere near as bad as a guilty conscience, IMO.

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[bodypilot90 0]

and yet you want me to blindly give you cradle to grave health care a free degree that I'm not sure you will use.

[jcd11235 0]

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and yet you want me to blindly give you cradle to grave health care a free degree that I'm not sure you will use.

While I do have an answer for you, we should either take this discussion to a thread more relevant, or start a new thread, instead of hijacking this one.

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[kelpdiver 2]

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Even if he wasn't a supporter of Desert Storm, what an awful display of disloyalty and disrespect. The USA is much bigger than Desert Storm. He had the right to disrespect his country in such a manner only because of people like those currently dying overseas. Just because you have that right, however, doesn’t mean that you “should” exercise it in that manner (i.e. burning the flag). Maybe I should use another example because he's probably not a supporter of the current campaign. How about like those who died gaining our country's independence and freedom. Standing for the Pledge of Allegiance is like saluting the office of the Presidency. You may not like or even hate the person holding the office but it's bigger than that. You salute because you're an American. If you don't want to be one, you're also free to leave "and give up your citizenship."

Were you one of the many that answered my poll, claiming to support the First Amendment, but not really meaning it?

The Pledge is a loyalty oath, little more. In its current form (under God), it's an offshoot of the Cold War and the Red Scare under Joe McCarthy in the 50s. More recently the fervor behind it has been a form of mock patriotism in response to the notion that anyone would challenge its merits. It's an action that requires and contributes very little.

Standing for the national anthem is a sign of respect. I'll generally do it for other nations as well.
But you don't have to do it to be an American, nor do you have the choice of doing so or leaving.

Unless...you think that free speech and thought is not something we're about.

[pajarito 0]

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The Pledge is a loyalty oath, little more. In its current form (under God), it's an offshoot of the Cold War and the Red Scare under Joe McCarthy in the 50s. More recently the fervor behind it has been a form of mock patriotism in response to the notion that anyone would challenge its merits. It's an action that requires and contributes very little.

Standing for the national anthem is a sign of respect. I'll generally do it for other nations as well.
But you don't have to do it to be an American, nor do you have the choice of doing so or leaving.

Unless...you think that free speech and thought is not something we're about.

I don’t see the difference between stating The Pledge of Allegiance and standing for The National Anthem. Why one should be done but not the other. However, I never said one should have to do either. I just said that it was a great sign of disrespect not to. I support the 1st Amendment and believe that a person should have the right to refuse to participate. I, however, believe that just because one has a right to do some things doesn't necessarily mean that they should (i.e. flag burning). I think very poorly of a person who takes for granted the great sacrifice of others who’ve died to ensure the rights of that person to exert their right to disrespect their country. That kind of person, in my opinion, is a freeloader and doesn’t amount to the scum on the bottom of my shoe.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don’t see the difference between stating The Pledge of Allegiance and standing for The National Anthem. Why one should be done but not the other.

Would you state the equilivent pledge of allegiance if you were visiting Beijing? Would you stand for their national anthem while you were there? There certainly is a difference.

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I think very poorly of a person who takes for granted the great sacrifice of others who’ve died to ensure the rights of that person to exert their right to disrespect their country. That kind of person, in my opinion, is a freeloader and doesn’t amount to the scum on the bottom of my shoe.

That, along with your suggestion they could (should?) leave the country walks a very fine line.

And as I said, saying a pledge doesn't take much. 20 years ago you could make a computer do it. Who's the freeloader - the person that says the pledge before getting dressed every morning, or the one that exposes government corruption?

[TomAiello 26]

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Would you state the equilivent pledge of allegiance if you were visiting Beijing? Would you stand for their national anthem while you were there?

I've stood for the National Anthem of several countries not the US.

Are you saying we ought to be sitting down if, when visiting another country, they play their national anthem and everyone else stands? That sounds awfully disrespectful to me.

Would I recite their "pledge"? No. But I'd stand up with everyone else. I'd see that as a reasonable degree of respect to accord my hosts.

edit to add: surely you don't think that at the Olympics, only citizens of the medal winners ought to stand when their anthem is played?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pajarito 0]

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Would you state the equilivent pledge of allegiance if you were visiting Beijing? Would you stand for their national anthem while you were there? There certainly is a difference.

I would stand for the National Anthem of another country if I was at an event where it was expected of their people. I would do that out of respect. I, however, would not pledge allegiance to their country for any reason.

I understand that you’re trying to differentiate the two but I think they’re both very important with regard to US citizenship. As a US citizen, one should think it an important demonstration of respect and loyalty to both stand for the National Anthem and state the Pledge of Allegiance. Even if you don’t happen to like who’s currently holding office.

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That, along with your suggestion they could (should?) leave the country walks a very fine line.

I never said that they should. I just said they were free to leave. Just like they’re also free do disrespect their country. However shameful it may be.

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And as I said, saying a pledge doesn't take much. 20 years ago you could make a computer do it. Who's the freeloader - the person that says the pledge before getting dressed every morning, or the one that exposes government corruption?

There are plenty of freeloaders out there. Many of whom say the Pledge of Allegiance. I think I was specific enough in my previous post, however, to make it clear the type of person I was referring to. It’s one thing to say it. It’s a completely different thing to say it and really mean it. Those that don’t say it out of protest or whatever and even those who do but don’t mean it are freeloaders and I have no respect at all for them.

[AnotherGoodin 0]

Why not? I mean we all put things in things that others don't like... I like ketchup in my Mac and Cheese.


*edit b/c of bad posting habit

If life gives you lemons then make lemonade, if not then go thirsty and keep on truckin'

[kelpdiver 2]

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I've stood for the National Anthem of several countries not the US.

Are you saying we ought to be sitting down if, when visiting another country, they play their national anthem and everyone else stands? That sounds awfully disrespectful to me.

Would I recite their "pledge"? No. But I'd stand up with everyone else. I'd see that as a reasonable degree of respect to accord my hosts.

edit to add: surely you don't think that at the Olympics, only citizens of the medal winners ought to stand when their anthem is played?

Uh, Tom, my earlier posting just 3 higher up the chain makes is clear what I think. The pledge and the national anthem are entirely different subjects.