Separation of church and state. MY ASS

[akarunway 1]

Gov't Gave $1 Billion to Faith-Based Groups in 2003
Some Non-Religious Surprised to Find Themselves on List
By LAURA MECKLER, AP

WASHINGTON (Jan. 2) - The government gave more than $1 billion in 2003 to organizations it considers ''faith-based,'' with some going to programs where prayer and spiritual guidance are central and some to organizations that do not consider themselves religious at all.



AP
Visitors to TMM Family Services in Tucson, Ariz., which received $25,000 for housing counseling, are greeted by a photo of Jesus and quotes from the Bible.


Many of these groups have entirely secular missions and some organizations were surprised to find their names on a list of faith-based groups provided to The Associated Press by the White House.

''Someone has obviously designated us a faith-based organization, but we don't recognize ourselves as that,'' said Stacey Denaux, executive director of Crisis Ministries, a homeless shelter and soup kitchen in Charleston, S.C.


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Other grant recipients are religious, offering social service programs that the government may have deemed too religious to receive money before President Bush took office.

Visitors to TMM Family Services in Tucson, Ariz., which received $25,000 for housing counseling, are greeted by a photo of Jesus and quotes from the Bible.

''We believe that people being connected to the faith of their choice is important to them having a productive life,'' said Don Strauch, an ordained minister and executive director of the group, which offers a variety of social services. ''Just because we take government money doesn't mean we back down on that philosophy.''

All told, faith-based organizations were awarded $1.17 billion in 2003. That is about 12 percent of the $14.5 billion spent on social programs that qualify for faith-based grants in five federal departments. White House officials expect the total to grow.

The list of 2003 grant recipients provided to AP is the first detailed tally of the dollars behind this ''faith-based initiative.''

Elected with strong support of religious conservatives, Bush came to office promising to open government's checkbook to religious groups that provide social services. Often, Bush says, religious groups do a better job serving the poor.

Civil libertarians fear the government will wind up paying for worship, eroding the constitutional separation between church and state.

Jim Towey, who directs the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, said the Bush administration has been clear that ''government money is not to fund religious activities.''

''This is a culture change in the way government provides social services,'' he said. ''There's always going to be a very delicate balance.''

In the past, government has refrained from giving money directly to religious groups, but has required that they set up independent, secular organizations to get taxpayer dollars. Bush tried to get Congress to change that. Congress refused, so he unilaterally put many of his changes into effect.

To entice religious groups to apply for grants, the White House hosted several conferences explaining the relaxed rules and put out a book listing programs they might want to apply for.

''We feel much more at ease,'' said Louis Wonderly, past president of the Luther House Foundation of Southern Chester County, Pa. The group was awarded $10.3 million to build an apartment building for low-income older people.

''We won't have to say, 'Oh my goodness, is it terrible to have a cross hanging on a bulletin board?''' Wonderly said.

It is unclear how much religion is too much religion when government money is involved. The courts have issued mixed rulings. The administration says a group getting federal money can sponsor worship and other religious activities as long as they are separated by time and location from activities paid by the government.

In New Haven, Conn., Women in Search of Health Education and Spirituality got almost $500,000 to help AIDS patients who are just out of drug treatment. Each session begins with a daily affirmation, where each participant chooses something to read, religious or secular.

The program's director, Patricia Lafayette, says a spiritual connection is emphasized. ''Generally, that's the key to recovery,'' she said.

''We pray anytime someone asks,'' added Joyce Poole, director of the AIDS Interfaith Network, which sponsors the program. ''Some clients walk in and say they need a prayer and a hug and we stop whatever we're doing for them.''

At the federal penitentiary in Leavenworth, Kan., Life Connections got more than $50,000 to help inmates who are about to be freed and who volunteer to participate and pick one of six religious programs to follow. Activities include a two-week spiritual retreat and six weeks of intense religious study.

The White House declined comment on whether these particular programs were appropriate.

The grants on the White House list were not specifically targeted to religious organizations. Rather, the list includes all groups believed to be faith-based that won competitive federal grants open to all applicants.

Specifically, it includes recipients of competitive grants administered by five federal departments: Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Education, Labor and Justice. Not included are the billions sent to the states for distribution.

An AP analysis of the $1.17 billion and nearly 150 interviews in 30 states with grant recipients found:

-Many are well-established, large social service providers that have received federal money for decades. More than 80 percent of recipients at HHS had received federal money before. At HUD, the figure was 93 percent.

-Two programs account for half of the $1.17 billion total: A HUD program known as Section 202 that builds housing for low-income poor people, and Head Start, a large preschool program for poor children. Both of them are dominated by longtime grant recipients that able to handle large amounts of money - not the small church groups sometimes evoked by the White House.

-Many organizations insist they do not belong on a list of ''faith-based organizations,'' even though they may have religious roots.

Some have no connection at all to religion, such as You Gotta Believe!, a Brooklyn, N.Y.-based group that finds permanent homes for teenagers in foster care. The name is not intended to invoke a belief in God, but the belief that there is a home somewhere for every child.

White House officials said the list included groups which had identified themselves as faith-based and groups which officials thought religious based on their names.

''We intentionally avoid references to God and his works in our educational material so that no one will feel intimidated or avoid our services because they're of a different religion,'' said Sue Ortiz, a home ownership counselor at Inner City Christian Federation in Grand Rapids, Mich., which got $65,000 in 2003 and $150,000 in 2004.

But religion inspires their work, she said: ''We do what we do because of God's love.''


AP-NY-01-02-05 1754EST

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[GravityGirl 0]

I don't think it matters if an organization is faith-based or not. If they are feeding the poor and offering shelter, I see nothing wrong with Governmental support.

As long as they are not saying, "Believe in my god, or get back out in the cold!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[jcd11235 0]

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I don't think it matters if an organization is faith-based or not. If they are feeding the poor and offering shelter, I see nothing wrong with Governmental support.

As long as they are not saying, "Believe in my god, or get back out in the cold!"

I agree.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[PhreeZone 20]

My feelings also. As someone that is far from religious I have no issue with money going to faith based groups provided they meet the same criteria as non-faith based groups. As long as there is no favoritism towards either group, and provided neither group discriminates on who they support... go for it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[bodypilot90 0]

I think you will find the cost of providing goods and services to the poor is a lot less that it would be if the gov't tried to provide it directly.

[jakee 1,596]

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Visitors to TMM Family Services in Tucson, Ariz., which received $25,000 for housing counseling, are greeted by a photo of Jesus and quotes from the Bible.

They had some amazing technology back then didn't they.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jumper03 0]

Just pull out any piece of U.S. currency - paper or coin - what do you see?

In God We Trust.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[PhillyKev 0]

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Just pull out any piece of U.S. currency - paper or coin - what do you see?

In God We Trust.

And your point?

You also see The All Seeing Eye and other symbols of Freemasonry and The Order of Nobels and Mystics.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Quote

Just pull out any piece of U.S. currency - paper or coin - what do you see?

In God We Trust.

And your point?

You also see The All Seeing Eye and other symbols of Freemasonry and The Order of Nobels and Mystics.

Which, IIRC, wasn't put on the back of the bill until the 40s.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[jumper03 0]

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And your point?

That any claim of separation of church and state is tenious at best.

The president swears on the bible at inauguration.
The pledge of allegiance - One Nation, Under God.
Many many more examples.

Is that truely separation? Or are we just paying lip service to it?

Scars remind us that the past is real

[PhreeZone 20]

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The pledge of allegiance - One Nation, Under God.

Added to make those pinko commies squeal and refuse to pledge an oath when they are godless. Look at the original version.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 3,120]

I've got no problem with the government giving money to charities/organizations to do work for the government - as long as they are open to all such organizations. In other words, giving money to catholic as well as secular agencies is no problem. The only time there would be a problem is if they refused to give any such money to jewish charities.

[3ringheathen 0]

In theory, I agree.

However, once this program has been around for a few years, I'd like to see a careful analysis of who is and is not getting money.

I'll be very surprised if there doesn't seem to be a bias in fund dispersment.
An obvious example would be Islamic charities Vs Christian charities.

It's potentially a rather big can of worms.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[rehmwa 2]

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However, once this program has been around for a few years, I'd like to see a careful analysis of who is and is not getting money.

Snort - I'd like to see a careful analysis of the current situation. Politics is about one thing - favoritism. Whatever model is used will always have balance.

(And a group that calls itself a 'Ministry' and then complains about being sorted into a bin titled 'non-secular' is trying to play both sides of the political coin. They can get over it.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[WrongWay 0]

Here's my .02 I guess....

I agree with everybody here that it's awesome that good is being done and people are being helped, REGARDLESS of who is providing for them. Getting hungry people food is never a bad thing.

As for funding "Faith Based Groups"........whether we like it or not, the majority of this country is of some kind of Christian faith. I could be wrong, but I've never been in a city swarmed with temples and barren of churches. Therefore, while I'm sure some favoritism is playing a part in it, common sense would tell us that a group affecting 60% of the country will get more money than one that affects 20% of it.

However, I do find this quote a bit disturbing....

Quote

Often, Bush says, religious groups do a better job serving the poor.

What defines "better" in his book? Sounds like he's trying to aid in the recruiting department to me.

Do Atheists get any money? Just had to ask....

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Snowwhite 0]

We are not told that we have to have a separation of church and state, we are told we have the RIGHT to it. If we choose to operate in a mixed equation, we have the right to that too. Catholic school kids have been getting the same federal subsidies for books and milk as the public school kids for decades. I can't remember the exact wording, but it has been mis quoted as "separation of church and state" for years....

skydiveTaylorville.org
freefallbeth@yahoo.com

[billvon 3,120]

> We are not told that we have to have a separation of church and state,
>we are told we have the RIGHT to it.

Not exactly. The specific wording is:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

In other words, our government cannot legislate anything that has to do with a specific religion - but your right to believe in whatever religion you choose is specifically protected.

[Snowwhite 0]

Thanks Bill, I figured that you may be the one to come up with the quote. Anyway, it allows us to choose to worship as we please OR NOT, and that is the real issue. People have been misquoting it, and suing on that basis for years.

skydiveTaylorville.org
freefallbeth@yahoo.com

[billvon 3,120]

>People have been misquoting it, and suing on that basis for years.

I think the thing they are quoting is a letter from Thomas Jefferson, who was explaining the powers of the government to the Danbury Baptist Association in response to a question from them. An excerpt from the letter:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

[Snowwhite 0]

excellant!

Well, there is a local lawsuit going on, I'll let you know the outcome as soon as I do. Right now, I'm not allowed to talk about it...

skydiveTaylorville.org
freefallbeth@yahoo.com

[mnealtx 0]

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> We are not told that we have to have a separation of church and state,
>we are told we have the RIGHT to it.

Not exactly. The specific wording is:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

In other words, our government cannot legislate anything that has to do with a specific religion - but your right to believe in whatever religion you choose is specifically protected.

Thanks, Bill - it's nice to know that SOMEone gets it!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jumper03 0]

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"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

I wish that people still wrote like this. It seems almost everything written in that period was elegant in both prose and flow.

Scars remind us that the past is real