dorbie 0 #151 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteIn all seriousness it's a derranged question that must mischaracterize the event in the asking. I fail to see how to ask why we did not implement plans already in place to deal with just such a situation, is derranged. Your conspiracy theories aside that wasn't the question we were discussing or that I quoted, here once again is your question we were discussing: Quote From an objective perspective, the attacks on WTC were a 60% spike in the national daily death poll. Why is the president so eager to go to war to avenge it Like I said it's a derranged question, your other questions are conspiracy nonsense that few people see as credible, you might as well ask why we don't spand billions landing probes on the Mars "face" & "pyramids". In politics credibility matters and so it should, when you squander it nobody listens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #152 January 7, 2005 I guess I don't get how it would cost more. Essentially, you would get to spread out the cost of your education, interest free, over the entire span of your working lifetime. Perhaps there's something I am missing? You seem to think people are getting something for nothing. No one would get anything for nothing. It's misleading to imply that is the case. Everyone pays their own way, they just don't have to worry about doing it all at once, and they don't have to pay profit to the rich for the priviledge of getting an education. You might be able to argue that in the short term it would be costly, and you would be right. We would have to find something other than war to keep people entertained. However, in the long run, it would cost society much less.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #153 January 7, 2005 QuoteI guess I don't get how it would cost more. Essentially, you would get to spread out the cost of your education, interest free, over the entire span of your working lifetime. Perhaps there's something I am missing? leeching incentive is a huge cost, government interference and federal mismanagement would be a huge cost. Beyond this even if it were the same cost, which is nonsense, it would be blatantly unfair. Some families would no longer be able to pay for their own kids education due to the increased tax burden to pay for other kids. Aside from being a huge injustice this has a detremental effect on the economy because of the reduced incentive and increased taxation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #154 January 7, 2005 Quote. In politics credibility matters and so it should, when you squander it nobody listens. It is the responsibility of the fourth estate to ask such questions. If asking about oral sex is not damging to the press's credibility, certainly serious, pertinent questions regarding failures in our national security. I am not a statist, I am not willing to give up transparency in government.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #155 January 7, 2005 QuoteI guess I don't get how it would cost more. Essentially, you would get to spread out the cost of your education, interest free, over the entire span of your working lifetime. What about those who don't pursue a qualifing secondary education. Tax rebates? Do you mind if I ask you if you voted in this years election. Just curious. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #156 January 7, 2005 QuoteSome families would no longer be able to pay for their own kids education due to the increased tax burden to pay for other kids. Why would they have to pay for their kids education. They are relieved of that burden. The cost is much less for them. Any increased tax burden is more than offset by savings in costs to the individual. Nobody gets anything for free. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. What percentage of the population do you really think wants to go to school full time for forty to sixty years? Give me a break. And it was you accusing me of trying to undermine confidence in Shrub. What a joke.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #157 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuote. In politics credibility matters and so it should, when you squander it nobody listens. It is the responsibility of the fourth estate to ask such questions. If asking about oral sex is not damging to the press's credibility, certainly serious, pertinent questions regarding failures in our national security. I am not a statist, I am not willing to give up transparency in government. Once again you ignore the question you actually asked, this is not about oral sex or other pet peeves or about transparent government. The answer to the actual question is self evident. There's no lack of accountability in not asking why we were so keen to go to war over 9/11. I suspect if we hadn't any sitting president would have been impeached and rightly so. The American people demanded this and infact that was reflected in congress. You don't want to ask serious questions, that's the point. You want to ask outlandish fringe quastions that play to your politically motivated conspiracy theories and your multiple choice statements about Bush's culpability betray that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #158 January 7, 2005 QuoteThere's no lack of accountability in not asking why we were so keen to go to war over 9/11. This is where we inherently disagree. If Bush was an incompetent failure on that day, that is forgiveable, but it appears to more closely resemble a cover-up, which is far more serious in my mind. And using September 11 as a motivation to invade Iraq is misleading the public, at best. If you think SlickWilly was not subjected to this kind of scrutiny, you're dreaming. Maybe there is a reason they couldn't get anything better than an extra-marital blow job on the guy. Shrub is not being treated any worse than was Clinton. It appears that he just has a lot more he is trying to hide. But to talk about asking the questions as though I am doing a disservice to my country by doing so? Unbelievable. Do you have any idea what it is America is supposed to stand for? There is a reason the First Amendment is the one thet deals with the freedom of speech, press, assembly, petition and religion. It's because the Founding Fathers thought that these things were pretty damn important. I too, hold them in very high regard, and am not ready to give those freedoms up quite as quickly as you seem to be. "No government ought to be without censors & where the press is free, no one ever will." Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Washington, September 9, 1792 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826) Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #159 January 7, 2005 QuoteWhat about those who don't pursue a qualifing secondary education. Tax rebates? The whole idea is that society as a whole benefits from a better educated population. If one does not choose to pursue any type of education, they would still benefit indirectly from the educated populace. Why would they get a tax rebate? If they have no kids in todays system, they still pay into the public education system. QuoteDo you mind if I ask you if you voted in this years election. Just curious. Yup. I voted.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #160 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteThere's no lack of accountability in not asking why we were so keen to go to war over 9/11. This is where we inherently disagree. If Bush was an incompetent failure on that day, that is forgiveable, but it appears to more closely resemble a cover-up, which is far more serious in my mind. And using September 11 as a motivation to invade Iraq is misleading the public, at best. Are you forgetting Afghanistan and the deposing of the Taliban or just skipping straight to Iraq because it disguises your question as credible? The truth often seems like a coverup to the conspiracy buffs. If you want some light reading try Foucault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #161 January 7, 2005 QuoteAre you forgetting Afghanistan and the deposing of the Taliban or just skipping straight to Iraq because it disguises your question as credible? I didn't forget about it. I wonder why it isn't the focus actually. What did Iraq have to do with anything? It is Shrub who would like us to forget about Afghanistan. QuoteThe truth often seems like a coverup to the conspiracy buffs. As coverups are usually engineered to look like the truth without further scrutiny. Are you telling me that the truth should not be available for examination? Do you really think that the President was trying to get all the facts out when he to appointed Henry Kissinger to head the investigation. You don't think HK could reasonably be suspected, given past history, of engineering a cover-up in two weeks? You do remember Cambodia and Laos, right? Those were Henry's babies. And let's not forget his favor to fascist regimes, such as that of Augusto Pinochet, including possible involve in his coup to attain power in Chile. Sorry. Looks like Shit, smells like shit, unless the administration can provide evidence to the contrary, the reasonable conclusion is the it is in fact shit. What, exactly is Shrub hiding? Why won't he answer questions and provide information? Why won't he allow an independant investigation? C'mon. If SOP had been implemented by NORAD, much of the damage would not have occurred. You are trying to tell me I shouldn't ask why SOP was not followed? Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #162 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteAre you forgetting Afghanistan and the deposing of the Taliban or just skipping straight to Iraq because it disguises your question as credible? I didn't forget about it. I wonder why it isn't the focus actually. What did Iraq have to do with anything? It is Shrub who would like us to forget about Afghanistan. Staying focused on Afghanistan then, you're the one who's saying you don't understand why we went to war after 9/11 when the effect "objectively" (your words) was a 60% spike in US daily deaths. When you promulgate silly questions like that you lose credibility. Being evasive when pressed on such an deranged question doesn't buy you that back. Your world view is founded on this kind of nonsense. Saying this sort of question needs to be answered by the President and taken seriously by anyone else is just ludicrous for the reasons I've stated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #163 January 7, 2005 Quote Staying focused on Afghanistan then, you're the one who's saying you don't understand why we went to war after 9/11 when the effect "objectively" (your words) was a 60% spike in US daily deaths. Again, you are taking me out of context. Shrub uses September 11. attacks as a basis for his hysterical fear based scare tactics. He even claimed, initially that Iraq was involved in the attacks, which was not true. And he has used that fantasy connection to draw attention to a war in Iraq. The liklihood of dying in a september 11 type attack are approximately equal to dying from a natural disater, it would seem. The scare tactics are unnecessary. QuoteBeing evasive when pressed on such an deranged question doesn't buy you that back. What question am I avoiding? Quote Your world view is founded on this kind of nonsense. Saying this sort of question needs to be answered by the President and taken seriously by anyone else is just ludicrous for the reasons I've stated. I hardly think objective observation is nonsense. Nor do I think answering questions about glaring discrepancies is out of line. What good reason have you offered up? That it might raise some questions that would undermine confidence? Why are you so hellbent to be loyal to a dishonest president, in the face of obvious corruption? His entire tenure has been a string of lies. And you think I should just trust him?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #164 January 7, 2005 Nice hijack, gentlemen! Can we get back to French bashing, please? "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #165 January 7, 2005 Quote Nice hijack, gentlemen! Can we get back to French bashing, please? Actually, if you want to be technical, we hijacked this thread twice. Not on purpose, you understand. Didn't mean to draw the heat away from you. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #166 January 7, 2005 QuoteYou claim to have all the answers, but you don't have a clue what life is like for a college student in the local economy here. This isn't some fantasy world where you can go out and get three or four job offers in a single day, like I could have in the nineties, but then again, we don't have such a strong domestic leader instilling confidence in the population today. Thats rich. I have gone out and gotten job offers just for fun. Hell, I got offered a sales job yesterday. You are killing me with this line of BS. We don't know what its like to be in your place....Yeah right. I bet NO ONE has ever worked his way through school before, or been broke. I however never blamed anyone but myself...so maybe you and I are different. QuotePleasure is a manifestitation of Love, and not the other way around I don't love steak, but I do enjoy it. Thats pleasure, not love. Love is pleasure. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I have shown how paying for your school is a bad investment of MY money. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, Ron, you haven't. You keep saying it is a bad investment, but you have provided no evidence to support your argument. Sure I have, you just ignored it. I'll recap for you: 1. Not all degrees will bring in enough money to offset the cost of school. Case studies: A friend of mine has a degree in English and makes less than me with no degree. I have a friend that has a degree but does not work. I have a buddy who sent his kid to school and she took "Dance". She is working teaching dance (A job she did not need a degree for) and making less than a guy at MacDonalds. 2. Not all that go to school will finish. So any money spent to send them there is wasted. I can list the number of folks that I know that went to school but never finished...I bet you can too. The current system works pretty well. If you want to make the big bucks you EARN it. a. Join the military and behave and get out with college money. b. Take out school loans and then pay them off with your big money job later, c. Work your way through school. People have been doing this...Others have done this, you could too. Instead you just want it given to you. And blame others why it never worked out right. Like I said...It's a bad investment. Also supply and demand needs to be taken into account. If I have 100 job openings and only one qualified canidate then that candidate can demand a high salary. If I have one job opening and 100 candidates...I can pay min wage. If everyone has an MBA, an MBA would be worthless. Your socialist ideas are a far cry from based in reality, and directly against the ideals that this country is based on. Plus you think allowing people to got o college would work any better than providing them an education 1-12? Not gonna happen. We pay to have kids go to high school and they come out with a degree and can't read."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #167 January 7, 2005 QuoteIt was also merely the first attack of an intended campaign (in fact not the first but the first on US soil) as the planners themselves proclaimed. No offense WTC93 was the first."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #168 January 7, 2005 QuoteSorry. Looks like Shit, smells like shit, unless the administration can provide evidence to the contrary, the reasonable conclusion is the it is in fact shit. In the US you are innocent till proven quilty. QuoteC'mon. If SOP had been implemented by NORAD, much of the damage would not have occurred BS. Firing on commercial airliners required the approval of the Prz, and we didn't know we were under attack till the second plane hit. All in all it was less than one hour till first strike till it was done. You mentioned Pane Stewarts plwne: 1. It was AFTER 9/11 so new procedures were in place. 2. We had HOURS to fly next to it once the new programs saw that it was not responding or not on its planned flight path.. Go fish. I find the best part is you believe this stuff."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #169 January 7, 2005 QuoteInstead you just want it given to you. And blame others why it never worked out right. If you insist on repeatiedly trying to mislead and misinterpret my posts, Ron there is no real reason for me to continue the discussion. If you would like to base your argument on eveidence and facts, it might be worth my time, but your misleading, unfounded implications or wrong. Period.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #170 January 7, 2005 QuoteIn the US you are innocent till proven quilty. Very true. But we also investigate criminal negligence. Why is Shrub so afraid to face such an investigation? When you try to imply we haved no SOP in place, it does nothing but make Shrub look that much more incompetent, especially considering they had recent warnings about using airliners as weapons.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #171 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the US you are innocent till proven quilty. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very true. But we also investigate criminal negligence. Why is Shrub so afraid to face such an investigation? Only a few think it was negligence. I don't. QuoteWhen you try to imply we haved no SOP in place, it does nothing but make Shrub look that much more incompetent, especially considering they had recent warnings about using airliners as weapons. Oh we had an SOP in place, but it was not tested, or refined. We never thought we needed it. And if you want to blame someone for that look at Clinton. Bush only had the Office 9 mths before 9/11. I doubt a plan such as that was not a big issue compared to all the other issues. Just keep fishing."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #172 January 7, 2005 QuoteIn the US you are innocent till proven quilty. Oh? Not entirely true is it? Sometimes the boundaries get blurred ...... by holding people offshore for example (still on US turf but ...say in Cuba) (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #173 January 7, 2005 QuoteOh we had an SOP in place, but it was not tested, or refined. Why was it not used? Tested or not, it was procedure. If it was not implemented, it was negligence or incompetence.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #174 January 7, 2005 QuoteIf you insist on repeatiedly trying to mislead and misinterpret my posts, I have not mislead anything. Fromt he start you said that, but its not true. You are unwilling to work. now you have your reasons, but it still boils donw to you not wanting to work. You blame locals, the economy, school squedule...everything but you not wanting to do it. You want those that do work to pay for your health care and education since you don't want to work....Instead of accepting responsibility you blame society. You even blame the military for screwing you out of your GI bill, not your role in the problem. You don't want to accept resposibility for your actions. You don't want to pay the price of your dreams and would rather me pay for you to live your dream. Quote Ron there is no real reason for me to continue the discussion On this you are correct. Until you can admit that it is your fault for your life, and your ability to make it better not someone else's. Until you realize that it is no one else's job or responsibilty to make it so you can live your dream...We have nothing to talk about. Like I have said...go fish."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #175 January 7, 2005 Like Isaid, Ron. I have already addressed all your concerns, but you insist on twisting my words to make you look more credible. It doesn't matter how many times you say I said things I didn't, or how many times you quote me out of context, it doesn't change what I said or meant. Thanks for playing, though.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
