jcd11235 0 #126 January 4, 2005 You are missing the point. They were a nation where everyone had access to the best healthcare technology available to them. How is that anything like shutting down our hospitals, med schools and clinics?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #127 January 4, 2005 QuoteYou are missing the point. They were a nation where everyone had access to the best healthcare technology available to them. How is that anything like shutting down our hospitals, med schools and clinics? If we reduced our healthcare to aboriginal levels, everyone would have immediate access to the best healthcare technology available to us. Same as if it was 1800, everyone would have equal access to the world's best sportscars and private jets. Pointing out a time when something was totally unavailable is not the same as proving that at that time everyone could have it. In fact, no one could have it. Everyone fed is not the same as everyone starving equally.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #128 January 4, 2005 Thankfully we are not an aboriginal culture. I don't think it'd work for us to do many of the things that worked for them. The systems are obviously not comparable. I don't see how your example is applicable. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #129 January 4, 2005 Quote If we reduced our healthcare to aboriginal levels, everyone would have immediate access to the best healthcare technology available to us. Same as if it was 1800, everyone would have equal access to the world's best sportscars and private jets. Pointing out a time when something was totally unavailable is not the same as proving that at that time everyone could have it. In fact, no one could have it. Everyone fed is not the same as everyone starving equally. Who said anything about reducing our healthcare to aboriginal levels? Giving everyone access to the best healthcare technology available today has absolutely nothing to do with sutting down hospitals or clinics. And healthcare was not totally unavailable to aboriginal cultures. Some of their hemeopathic remedies are superior to some of our allopathic remedies. Do you think illness and injury are new to mankind? Do you believe we are the first culture to take a serious look at healthcare? Just because we have had the benefit of hundreds of years of additional research does not mean we discovered the field.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #130 January 4, 2005 QuoteSome of their hemeopathic remedies are superior to some of our allopathic remedies Examples, please.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #131 January 4, 2005 QuoteThankfully we are not an aboriginal culture. I don't think it'd work for us to do many of the things that worked for them. The systems are obviously not comparable. I don't see how your example is applicable. Tom asked for an example from past or present, and I gave him one. No one disputes that medical technology has made advances since we wiped out the native Americans.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #132 January 4, 2005 Why do you suppose our technology (medical or otherwise) has advanced over time?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #133 January 4, 2005 QuoteExamples, please.... http://www.wnho.net/deathbymedicine.htm http://www.healthe-livingnews.com/articles/death_by_medicine_part_2.html http://www.ccmadoctors.ca/saving_medicine.htm http://www.garynull.com/documents/iatrogenic/deathbymedicine/DeathByMedicine4.htm That should be a start.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #134 January 4, 2005 Quote Why do you suppose our technology (medical or otherwise) has advanced over time? The Holocaust.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #135 January 4, 2005 I'm missing the parts where any of those articles (with the exception of the one written by a homeopath, who would be difficult to describe as unbiased) discuss advantages of homeopathic medicine. They appear to describe problems with our current system. Let me repeat what I said above. We have the worst possible system--except all the others that have been tried. That means that I'm aware there are problems, but I dispute your claim that your suggested alternative is demonstrably superior in any way.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #136 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuote Why do you suppose our technology (medical or otherwise) has advanced over time? The Holocaust. Either that was the most racist thing I've ever heard, or you need to elaborate. Please tell me it's the latter?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #137 January 4, 2005 If you look for answers in some specific format, you will likely miss the answers altogether. Our system is not, by any stretch of the imagination, better than all others.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #138 January 4, 2005 I am not racist, and that reply was not intended as such. It is ironic that Hitler allowing experimentation on humans, living and dead, did in fact comprise a huge contribution to modern medicine. For example, inserting a rod inside the femur, instead of a cast on the leg, came from WWII Germany, at least according to the orthopedic surgeon who inserted mine, once upon a time. Acknowledging Hitler's contribution to medicine should in no way be considered support for Hitler's actions. But, as someone once said, about half of all bad things came from good intentions, while about half of all good thing came about with bad intention.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #139 January 4, 2005 We've all seen the Death By Medicine Articles. The other article touts homeopathic remedies. Many allopathic physicians would absolutely agree that there's good in many of these remedies. What you said though, was that some of their homeopathic remedies are superior to some of our allopathic remedies. I think that the list of such remedies will be very, very short. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #140 January 4, 2005 QuoteWhat you said though, was that some of their homeopathic remedies are superior to some of our allopathic remedies. I think that the list of such remedies will be very, very short. I'm not a doctor, but considering the growing support for homeopathic remedies within the medical community leads me to believe if the list was short, everything on it would be commonly known.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
abcdefg 0 #141 January 4, 2005 QuoteI'm not a doctor, but... Well, I am a doctor, and I believe you're overestimating the level of "support" for homeopathic remedies within the medical community. I'd be willing to try a few homeopathic remedies for minor ailments--but if I (or my patients) get _really_ sick, I'll stick to medications. I'll reconsider if there are ever adequate controlled trials that demonstrate effective homeopathic treatments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #142 January 4, 2005 Quoteadequate controlled trials that demonstrate effective homeopathic treatments. That's not likely to happen as long as the pharmaceutical companies are raking in 40% annual profits. It doesn't affect the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies, or a host of other alternatives to allopathic medicine. With our current system, doctors are the third leading cause of death in the US. Unless, of course, JAMA lied about that. http://www.mercola.com/2000/jul/30/doctors_death.htmMath tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #143 January 4, 2005 QuoteWith our current system, doctors are the third leading cause of death in the US. Unless, of course, JAMA lied about that. Ah, now I see. We'd be much better off without the doctors. Didn't we just go over that? Clearly the way to better medical care is to close down all the medical schools, hospitals and clinics. Modern medicine is undoubtedly just a conspiracy by the rich to exploit the poor. By the way, I don't see any reason that everyone (regardless of income) is not free to read up on homeopathic remedies, and create and use them for themselves. So, if we just shut down all of our medical facilities, we'll have universal healthcare (at the state of the then current art) _and_ we'll have fewer deaths. Clearly we've all been blinded by the military-industrial-medical-capitalist conspiracy.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #144 January 4, 2005 >What would you change in our current system? Right now? Formalize the two-tier system. Make a baseline level of care available to everyone. This ends up being cheaper in the end - $50 worth of vitamins for a pregnant indigent woman can save $500,000 in care for an infant with spina bifida. (And allowing the child to die or remain hopelessly crippled is not really an option in our society.) For more advanced care - say, a heart transplant or bypass surgery - require payment. If they can't pay, prescribe palliatives and mitigating medication (i.e. cheaper and possibly less effective treatments.) Again, this is pretty much what we have now, since we don't turn people away from the ER. By seeing those same people in a local clinic (which is an order of magnitude cheaper to operate than an ER) you save money and catch more things up-front; prevention and early care is almost always cheaper than treatment for late-stage disease. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #145 January 4, 2005 You are pretty good at putting words in my mouth.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #146 January 4, 2005 sorry chris but that is how your line of reasoning seems to be going. If you like Cuba's healthcare system I can get you with in swooping distance of the beach . I do not want to pay taxes like newzealand or germany. I am unwilling to have substandard health care and I do not want a health care system ran like the IRS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #147 January 4, 2005 QuoteYou are pretty good at putting words in my mouth. Seems to me that Tom has only summarized the words that came out of your mouth first. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #148 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteThose warnings used to mean something. Nowadays helmets, baseball bats, jumper cables and extension cords have longer (and often more dire) warnings on them. Heck, lots of people pretty much ignore the skydiving waivers; they just sign and sign as fast as they can. And that's a legal document you are required to sign! really comes down to personal responsibility. The right wants to treat them as adults and hold them accountable and seems as the left want to treat them as kids and treat them as victims. The warnings are there, you choose to heed or not to heed them. No, it comes down to perception. The right wants to treat them as dregs of society deserving of nothing except a miserable existence and then death. The left wants to treat people with humanity and compassion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #149 January 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe issue is - do we want to do it? I'd actually say the issue is - what will we have to give up to do it? No, I think the attitude of many is....why should I have to give up anything? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #150 January 4, 2005 QuoteThankfully we are not an aboriginal culture. I don't think it'd work for us to do many of the things that worked for them. The systems are obviously not comparable. I don't see how your example is applicable. linz Absolutely true. Those societies knew the value of sharing with each other and working together for the common good. Understood the need to help each other in case one day they themselves needed help. Today our society is based on who can be most successful and if you can't keep up, you're a lazy shit who doesn't deserve anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
